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Old 10-10-2010, 02:11 PM   #51
Flintstone
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
Man your blood pressure must be out the window
Always freakin' out about stuff that doesn't matter, and doesn't have actual impact upon your life.
My blood pressure is more than fine, thank you.

Did you freak out because of my mention of your own beliefs?

That stuff really doesn't matter to you, but... to others?

It doesn't have an actual impact upon my life? How gratuitous!
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Old 10-10-2010, 09:30 PM   #52
niall
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Alejandro it is one thing to attack what you see as racism which you did in the other thread and which is justifiable and understandable (and of course other people have the right to put other points of view).

But in this thread one person made a reasonable and relevant remark. Pithy even! I don't speak Spanish but the latin is: Si fueris Rōmae, Rōmānō vīvitō mōre; si fueris alibī, vīvitō sicut ibi. When in Rome, when in Rome do as the Romans do. It's about the Roman Empire not the Catholic church.

If you don't agree with someone it is always a good idea to make alternative suggestions.

It is never acceptable to make a personal attack on someone for his or her opinion.

It is never acceptable to make a personal attack on someone for his or her beliefs.

Real aikido is not just for the dojo.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


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Old 10-10-2010, 10:06 PM   #53
RED
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
My blood pressure is more than fine, thank you.

Did you freak out because of my mention of your own beliefs?

That stuff really doesn't matter to you, but... to others?

It doesn't have an actual impact upon my life? How gratuitous!
I think we might have an issue of translation here, because I don't know what you mean by "my beliefs". I wasn't aware we were talking about my religious views, nor was I aware you were aware of what my religious views were, seeing that isn't really something I recall ever going into great detail about on this website...

I thought you were upset that I said "When in Rome..." as my opinion of the entire of how to respond to the "clapping in class" oddity that happens in some dojo. I figured you just didn't like my nonchalant attitude. I've visited people who do it, my dojo doesn't practice it, but when in another man's house I abide by his rules..thus , "When in Rome.." <----the expression..I'm not Catholic. lol

Basically, you're mad and I can't figure out why now.

It's not gratuitous... because my thoughts on the "clapping" thing doesn't impact your life. You'll be okay man, even if I don't do things for the same reason you do... scouts honor!

Last edited by RED : 10-10-2010 at 10:14 PM.

MM
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Old 10-11-2010, 02:22 AM   #54
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
... Si fueris Rōmae, Rōmānō vīvitō mōre; si fueris alibī, vīvitō sicut ibi. When in Rome, when in Rome do as the Romans do. It's about the Roman Empire not the Catholic church.
This is a word of Aurelius Ambrosius / Saint Ambrose (*337-340, + 4 April 397).
It is told that he gave this advise to Augustine of Hippo/Aurelius Augustinus Hipponensis/St. Augustine (*November 13, 354, + August 28, 430).
The english version comes from Ductor Dubitantium of Jeremy Taylor (*1613, + 13 August 1667).

So it is not just "about the roman empire", but exactly about the same issue which is discussed here: How to live or to practice ones religious beliefs in a surrounding which differs strongly from them. There was the pagan roman religion and philosophy and some different streams of christian theology there. And there was no peace between them. So you had to decide what to say, what to think and "whether you clap your hands or not".

Well I think bowing is not a religious issue.
Clapping hands in front of a shinto shrine, kamidana, etc. (which most non japanese dojo don't have!) truely is.
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Old 10-22-2010, 03:34 AM   #55
Randall Lim
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Rey Robles wrote: View Post
I am new to Aikido and have a question about bowing before and after class with clapping.

I train in a USAF dojo. We do not clap when we formally bow in and out. I've visited other dojos in the area, that are not USAF and some do clap as part of their formal bow.

I noticed that at Doshu's recent seminar in Montreal that he didn't clap.

I've never been to Japan, yet.
Do they clap in Hombu dojo Japan?

Thanks.
Rey

Clapping is from the Shinto religion which O-Sensei was a devout believer & practitioner. Clapping is only done before a Shinto shrine.
O-Sensei's portrait is not a Shinto Shrine. Neither is any other Kanji Caligraphy that might be displayed at the Kamiza.

So only in proper built-to-measure Dojos are Shinto shrines most likely to be built. In most modern make-shift Dojos where the mats are laid before every training & removed after every training, Shinto shirines are most unlikely to be put up, thus rendering any clapping unnecessary.
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Old 10-26-2010, 02:02 PM   #56
Greg Jennings
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Randall Lim wrote: View Post
Clapping is from the Shinto religion which O-Sensei was a devout believer & practitioner. .
That is not entirely correct. The Founder was a devout follower of Omotokyo, one of the New Religions and, depending on your viewpoint, derived from Shinto.

Greg Jennings
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Old 10-26-2010, 02:52 PM   #57
Pat Togher
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
So your strong Christian beliefs allow you to call for the Shinto kamis to come sit and watch the class. It's ok for me, but maybe not so for your Church. It's not just a matter of "when in Rome".
I am no scholar of these issues, but I believe Paul adressed a similar issue in 1 Cor 8.

Pat
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Old 10-27-2010, 04:23 AM   #58
Flintstone
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Pat Togher wrote: View Post
I am no scholar of these issues, but I believe Paul adressed a similar issue in 1 Cor 8.

Pat
Sorry, I'm not sitting with my Bible beside me right now. Could you quote, please?
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Old 10-27-2010, 04:36 AM   #59
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Sorry, I'm not sitting with my Bible beside me right now. Could you quote, please?
A barbecue is a barbecue.
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Old 10-27-2010, 04:54 AM   #60
Flintstone
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Oh, the one about the idols, I see. Thanks, Pat, for the reference. I believe Paul is making my point exactly, but I cannot discuss it here with Maggie since I'll be banned again by Jun.
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Old 10-27-2010, 04:34 PM   #61
Pat Togher
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Demetrio - Yes. Or perhaps, a barbeque is just a barbeque if you are a believer.

Alejandro.
I believe Paul acually contradicts you, which is why I mention it.
Discussion:
(Jun, please delete if you feel this is inappropriate - I can always continue the discsussion via PM.)

I don't generally stray this far into religious topics, as they are not my areas of expertise. However, having recently discussed this passage in church, and it being relavent (I think) to the thread, I'll presume on Jun's good graces for a moment and explain to the best of my ability. I'll not include the relavent verses, though. the text is widely available (on and offline) in numerous translations for those interested in the exact wording.

The quote generally refers to christians eating meat from sacrifices. The relavance to this thread, I think, is interacting with non-christians in ritual settings. Paul's response in that the idols are not god (to a christian), so there's no conflict - go ahead and eat the food. His caveat is that you should not eat the food if that will draw other christians away from christian practice (i.e. you should not act in a way that would confuse the brothers and sisters).

So to bring it back home, a christian would not believe they are summoning any gods by clapping their hands, so a handclap (for a christian in this setting) is just a handclap.

Pat

Last edited by Pat Togher : 10-27-2010 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 10-27-2010, 05:07 PM   #62
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Yes, And if something actually appeared? What then?
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Old 10-27-2010, 05:32 PM   #63
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Josh Philipson wrote: View Post
Yes, And if something actually appeared? What then?
Hah! If something did, I imagine something in the order of an immediate conversion might happen, or fleeing towards the door! LOL:

And if something didn't?

Pat

Last edited by Pat Togher : 10-27-2010 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 10-27-2010, 05:44 PM   #64
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Josh Philipson wrote: View Post
Yes, And if something actually appeared? What then?
Holy Water. And don't grab his/her wrist. Tell yourself "I should have joined the Sumo club"...

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Old 10-27-2010, 05:53 PM   #65
Pat Togher
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Holy Water. And don't grab his/her wrist. Tell yourself "I should have joined the Sumo club"...

Now that is funny!

Pat
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Old 10-27-2010, 06:19 PM   #66
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

I've found it:

Your discussion of possession reminded me of a story Mary Heiny told at a seminar a number of years ago. I'll relate it, since it also shares a common source (Hikitsuchi Sensei) and may in fact have been Chinkon Kishin, I'm not sure. Appologies in advance for anything I may get wrong in the retelling, I'm sure I'll miss a few details.

So Mary and Jack Wada were visiting Shingu to study with Hikitsuchi Sensei. Apparently they had been working on some ritual/practice (chinkon kishin?) that was designed to draw the kami down to the practitioner. Apparently, back at their hotel (outside of Shingu, I'm afraid that I forgot which town) Jack decided to head up to the roof and do some homework with this new practice. A little while later Jack comes running into Mary's room, completely white and terrified looking. He claims that he's drawn some horrible 'black' creature/kami thing down and it's after him. Mary looks outside the room and claims to have seen/sensed this malicious blackness down the hall. They're both freaking out at this point. She said that the blackness thing was headed down the hall towards them when it stopped outside of the door of fellow inn-guest Meik Skoss. Suddenly Meik opens his door and oblivious to their urges to stay in his room, walks out into the hall into the space where the blackness thing is. At which point (from Mary's view) it dissipates and Meik asks them why they're making so much noise. The end. Nothing bad happened to Meik or Mary or Jack. When they told Hikitsuchi about it later, he told them that they were foolish to use the ritual at their inn, because that part of Japan was known for its evil-black kami and that the practice should only be done in a place that was already purified like a dojo. Meik was apparently quite unimpressed that he had walked through an evil kami and went back to his room

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=180

Be Meik Skoss. Problem solved.
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Old 10-27-2010, 06:43 PM   #67
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

LOL. Easy for Mike, for the rest of us - not so much !

There is some fascinating stuff in the rest of the thread you linked. Thanks!

Pat
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Old 10-27-2010, 07:28 PM   #68
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

kinda sorta along those lines: Interview with Mariye Takahashi
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Old 10-28-2010, 11:02 AM   #69
Pat Togher
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Some interesting comments on Aikido and religion here: André Nocquet Returns To Japan

Pat

Last edited by Pat Togher : 10-28-2010 at 11:02 AM. Reason: corrected typo
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Old 10-28-2010, 11:33 AM   #70
Greg Jennings
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Evil presences, spirits of O'Sensei and Terry Dobson arguing...the
Easter Bunny is going to be next.

Greg Jennings
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Old 10-28-2010, 11:06 PM   #71
RED
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Oh, the one about the idols, I see. Thanks, Pat, for the reference. I believe Paul is making my point exactly, but I cannot discuss it here with Maggie since I'll be banned again by Jun.

MM
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Old 11-24-2010, 12:21 PM   #72
ewolput
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

When I was a young shodan in 1976, I trained at the Korindo dojo in Shizuoka, they did clapping before the training started. I did also, of course totally wrong. One of the deshi came afterwards to me and he said : if you don't understand, don't do it because it makes a fool of you.
Today we just bow and no clapping, because I still don't understand :-)

Eddy
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Old 11-24-2010, 12:52 PM   #73
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Eddy Wolput wrote: View Post
When I was a young shodan in 1976, I trained at the Korindo dojo in Shizuoka, they did clapping before the training started. I did also, of course totally wrong. One of the deshi came afterwards to me and he said : if you don't understand, don't do it because it makes a fool of you.
Today we just bow and no clapping, because I still don't understand :-)

Eddy
If I didn't try at the things I don't understand, I wouldn't do much of anything. Was it because of some religious or spiritual understanding or something more mechanical?

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 11-25-2010, 03:52 AM   #74
ewolput
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

The bow and the clapping in the Shizuoka dojo was in front of a Shinto shrine. In that time I didn't know anything about shinto and shrines. Now I have some understanding because I have some family in Japan. The message in that time was very clear, you don't have to do those things if it is not your religion or belief. You only have to show some respect to the other people who understand the bowing and clapping. Now when I visit a Shinto shrine, I only bow to show my respect but I don't clap because it has to meaning to me . I can understand the influence of some religion into martial arts, but this is not a reason to do all those things just copying and have no spirit. If I put a cross in the dojo and before training I do my christian ritual, I cannot expect from non christians they do my ritual, if they understand they can do but in the other case they just show respect by bowing. And by the way in my dojo there is no cross
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Old 11-25-2010, 04:25 AM   #75
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Happy clappy people?
Something to do with invoking the Gods?
As I don't believe in that hogwash I would clap to applaud......
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