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Old 10-20-2010, 12:12 PM   #26
MM
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I'm still a bit confused after reading your explanations.
I had no problems understanding George's explanations. Perhaps if you bought the DVD and watched it completely you could get more answers to your questions and confusion? It seems to me that you're trying to judge the whole DVD by a very small sample video without researching exactly what George is presenting. My opinion, anyway.

Mark
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Old 10-20-2010, 12:23 PM   #27
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

So is it a DVD about kaeshi waza for people who has "the IHTBF"?

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Old 10-20-2010, 12:30 PM   #28
AsimHanif
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

I agree Ledyard Sensei…some things are hard to convey digitally. It has to be felt since we are dealing with subtleties.
But I do try to train in keeping your center even when you lose your balance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n21usSaXlYU
In this clip I chose to take over early in the technique but I also like to train to feel what can happen further down the line. In order to practice this you have to actually commit to the attack and have your balance compromised. But it is just one method.
Thank you for your contributions.
AH
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Old 10-20-2010, 12:48 PM   #29
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I had no problems understanding George's explanations. Perhaps if you bought the DVD and watched it completely you could get more answers to your questions and confusion? It seems to me that you're trying to judge the whole DVD by a very small sample video without researching exactly what George is presenting. My opinion, anyway.

Mark
Thanks Mark,
Actually this clip wasn't even from the current DVD but was simply some material that will be going in to Vol which will come out in the future. My terminology is an eclectic mix of concepts I got from Ikeda Sensei, Ushiro Sensei, Gleason Sensei, Dan H Sensei, Don Angier Sensei, Toby Threadgill Sensei and some others. Everyone has a different set of terms they use to describe what they do dep[ending on their backgrounds. The Chinese have the most highly developed set of terms for the internal power principles but I didn't have much of a background in that. So I have a mish mash of terms that I use but am very consistent about how I use them. So if someone is familiar with either my teaching or the instruction given by many of the folks I have trained with, they should be able to understand what I am talking about.

Folks who haven't done any of this kind of training won't understand the terminology because it refers to things you have to "feel" first, before the terms have much meaning to you. There are a variety of folks up here on the forums who have the background to see what I am doing, regardles of how they view the skill level of my doing it. Many of these folks have actually trained with me and have felt what I am talking about, others, like yourslef have done training with other folks who are operating using many of the same principles... For instance, anyone who has trained extensively with Endo Sensei would have some idea what I am doing even if Endo Sensei doesn't explain what he is doing the same way. It's the same set of principles.

Anyway, we have reached the limit of what can be explained (in this limited space with the time I have) without "showing" and "feeling". Folks who are interested can get my earlier DVDs or those Ikeda Sensei sells at his seminars by Ushiro Sensei or Ikeda Sensei himself and see fairly detailed explanations of the principles behind what I am doing. Or, show up at one of the seminars I do all over the place and I'll explain it in person. It's not like I am hard to find...

My Schedule

Folks who don't understand what is going on, which I understand as it has only been fairly recently that I have had a clue, can either go out of their way to find help or not. Folks who are entirely happy with what they know and how they do it are fully entitled to ignore all of this stuff. It's just what I am working on.

A few years ago, one of my friends, a very senior student of Saotome Sensei with close to forty years of training went to sleep and didn't wake up the next morning. Aside from the sadness of having a friend pass away, I was shocked to realize that his experience was lost to us. Not that many people had actually ever even done a class with him and now the opportunity was lost forever. Rather like an endangered species going extinct. So I determined that I would document whatever I've figured out, as I go. If I were to pass away tomorrow, what I currently understand is out there, virtually all over the world. So aside from the fact that my videos pay for my training and Fed Taxes, they are a way to ensure some sort of transmission and ensure that what I have learned gets passed on somehow. So I don't have a problem posting a clip of something I am working on out of context... people will simply see what they are prepared at the time to see. That's fine. It's just a "teaser" really. Someone wil look at it and say "I want to be able to do that"... then they will take some sort of action. It might not even be doing anything with me... that's fie. Those who look at it and think it's BS will do nothing about it and no one is worse off than before, so that's cool too.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 10-20-2010, 01:58 PM   #30
Russ Q
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

Quote:
A few years ago, one of my friends, a very senior student of Saotome Sensei with close to forty years of training went to sleep and didn't wake up the next morning. Aside from the sadness of having a friend pass away, I was shocked to realize that his experience was lost to us. Not that many people had actually ever even done a class with him and now the opportunity was lost forever. Rather like an endangered species going extinct. So I determined that I would document whatever I've figured out, as I go. If I were to pass away tomorrow, what I currently understand is out there, virtually all over the world.
Thank you. This is an important service to the aikido community. Living where I do, I often find myself looking at on line videos and taking what I can use with me to class that night.

Cheers,

Russ
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Old 10-20-2010, 03:03 PM   #31
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I also don't really understand (looks like I'm a bit slow LOL) your discussion about atemi in the context of kaeshi waza. Generally speaking, kaeshi waza is possible when there is a opening in the technique. With atemi or without atemi, if there is no opening no kaeshi waza is possible. Also, both aikidoka are trying create opening (with atemi or without), not only one who is trying kaeshi waza. If both start to hit atemi only, it becomes boxing and not aikido anymore. So I don't see a point discussing here atemi.
My discussion of atemi waza in the context of kaeshiwaza is completely the point... Once you start having an uke / nage relationship in which BOTH people have these skills, you realize that as long as the uke is centered and connected, you aren't going to throw him. The same channels you are using to connect to him, he is connecting to you. Most Aikido is not done this way. We strive for sophisticated technique against folks who exhibit no understanding of the skills we use as nage when they are in the role of uke.

If you want to have a technique that cannot be reversed, it requires that you disrupt the connection which uke has to your center while maintaining your own connection to his center. The predominant way this is done is via atemi. The purpose of the atemi is to put the attacker "out of phase" with you so he is unable to redirect the energy of the technique when it is applied. (More correctly, it is to prevent him from "getting inside" the technique with his own energy so as to redirect it.)

Normal Aikido practice is the study of this connection, Both PARTNERS are attempting to maintain that connection throughout the interaction. When the interaction is no longer a practice but rather a true violent encounter, between opponents who both have skills, you don't want "awase" or matching. You want the other guy behind yours in his timing. The way to do this is to "cut his ki" (I don't remember the Japanese for this term but there is one). This is the primary purpose of atemi in Aikido. Any understanding of how one can execute reversals brings one back to the conclusion that martial application of technique against a skilled opponent requires the use of atemi.

Now, if you have far more skills than the guy you are fighting, then perhaps you can dispense with the atemi. But leave it out with a really skilled attacker and you are going to be the one taking the fall. Once again, just my opinion. Folks can feel free to agree or not. It's your own Aikido, not anyone else's, everyone needs to decide for himself. But try it... find the best uke you know and give him some good training in kaeshiwaza and then try to do technique on him when he not only has permission to reverse you, but is operating under an imperative to do so.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 10-20-2010 at 03:07 PM.

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Old 10-21-2010, 12:53 AM   #32
Michael Varin
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

Quote:
George Ledyard wrote:
We strive for sophisticated technique against folks who exhibit no understanding of the skills we use as nage when they are in the role of uke.
Is this really true? Or do the attacks of aikido actually represent the best choice, and the biggest threat, in certain circumstances?

Quote:
George Ledyard wrote:
find the best uke you know and give him some good training in kaeshiwaza and then try to do technique on him when he not only has permission to reverse you, but is operating under an imperative to do so.
This really is the key. But why do we waste so much time going down paths that lead nowhere and are founded in utter nonsense?

And because they were left so neatly untouched, I repost my questions in response to George Ledyard's words. Aikidoists would do well to consider them. The answers can clear up a great deal of confusion.

Quote:
George Ledyard wrote:
These techniques originally had different origins... Ikkyo had to do with sword taking. Sankyo was a knife defense technique. Nikkyo occurs most naturally and easily as a weapons retention technique, etc.


Jason DeLucia is an mma fighter with the strongest Aikido background. I have a very nice set of dvds devoted to application of various Aikido techniques in an mma setting. But if you watch his competitions against other professionals, the essential techniques of Aikido are no where to be seen.


they had very specialized applications, almost always involving weapons, since the samurai were pretty much ALWAYS armed.


But I would suggest trying it out. If you can find someone who has an equivalent level of skill in karate or wing chun, muy thai or whatever, someone not an Aikido practitioner, and see if you can get any of these basic Aikido techniques on him. If you can do so without getting knocked out, you know something I don't know...
Quote:
Michael Varin wrote:
Once again, HIPS…

What if we place our martial artists in a weapon engagement? What would it look like? What situations might occur?

How many of their techniques would work for a muay thai, or a wrestler against an opponent armed with a sword? How many of their techniques would a muay thai or a wrestler use if they were armed with a sword?

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 10-21-2010, 08:51 AM   #33
raul rodrigo
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

The curious thing about Endo's body method is that he lets the uke "in." (In one DVD sequence, I think from Atari and Musubi, he brings down an uke who is pushing on his forehead and asks: "Did you see me let him in?") He can take control of uke from all sorts of strange compromised positions: both hands held up horizontally behind him, or one hand held in yonkyo position, elbow high in the air, or uke is pushing on his shoulder and he lets the push come in, to the point that uke thinks he has broken through, but actually Endo has brought uke in to the point that he has no more power, and then Endo cames back at him with the shoulder.

His body method isn't about impenetrability. The two centers communicate to one another continually. When uke is fixated on a particular direction, say with coming up against an ikkyo, Endo lets him go up ("releases" is the word in the subtitle), and then bounces him down again.

Endo's teacher Yamaguchi was known for leaving openings in his waza, and expecting uke to try to take advantage of them. Of course, if they did, Yamaguchi would turn out to be waiting for them at the other end with another waza.
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Old 10-21-2010, 09:09 AM   #34
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

I agree Rodrigo. Endo Sensei has complete control of his structure and doesn't oppose what you (uke) think you control. He does invite you in then manipulates his body to stay connected and redirect what he feels. Its totally ad lib which I appreciate. I don't think he is concerned with being 'immovable'. I think (again) his approach is about freedom of movement mentally and physically.
AH
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:14 AM   #35
Fred Little
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An Open Letter to Carl Sagan

Dear Dr. Sagan:

I just viewed several very short snippets from your PBS series "Cosmos," and have to tell you that your approach to teaching cosmology and physics is absolutely useless.

First, it is essential for prospective physicists to completely understand fundamentals. How can a beginner understand the import of "billions and billions of light-years" without a basic understanding of Newton's Philosophić Naturalis Principia Mathematica? Absent a foundation of this kind, understanding of the revolutionary nature of Special and General Relativity is totally impossible. Of course, this means that beginners must start with Latin, and we both know that there are very few students serious enough to do this, but basics are basics, and I know we both agree on this point, not least because Latin will also help students understand Galileo's Sidereus Nuncius, and relevant Church documents necessary to understand that the Church never forbade the discussion of his heliocentric hypothesis as hypothesis as claimed by some vile-anti-Papist slanderers.

Sure, you could take a more empirical approach, like Feynman did when investigating the Challenger disaster, and maybe that is what you are trying to do. Please note that Feynman did not pretend that room temperature water was ice water in his on-camera demonstration of O-ring failure. Feynman insisted on real ice water, so he could show genuine shrinkage of O-ring material. Sure, it was so small that it was invisible on camera, and the viewers had to take his word for it, but at least his demonstration had some scientific integrity, unlike the totally fake special effects included in the sample clips of your series.

I could go on with additional examples, but I think that this would take far too much time and I know you are a serious astrophysicist who doesn't need so many examples to understand that your approach is so imprecise and useless that you must change it to conform to my interpretation of classical and empirical ideas about education instead of using crazy approaches designed for silly children who still won't learn Latin or how to use a micrometer for accurate measurement.

I still respect your work on radio emissions from Venus and your role in proving that Venus is hot. I respect this and other achievements so much that I am deeply confused to see you doing such stupid things on PBS. But really, if you are willing to throw away serious science in order to be a talking head cosmological huckster, it is probably a waste of my time to talk with you about this, you are too far gone for me to help, but even so, I hope you will see the light and make the program I have already imagined so that I won't have to do the work. It is very difficult to find the time when stupid businesses like this deeply flawed video of yours demand so much effort and critique.

Please do not ask me any questions about my work or my teachers' works, its quality or the level of quality of the lab technicians working for us, or our unwillingness to submit our results to peer review, this is a total distraction from the problems we see in your video, which is the only proper topic of discussion at this time.

PS: You suck. Get a clue.

Sincerely,

Steven Hurling

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Old 10-21-2010, 10:46 AM   #36
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

Good video.

Ultimately I believe our training should consist of a competent uke attacking a competent nage. I think we have far too many uke who fall or wait to be thrown and true kaeshi waza is something that is not achieved regularly in class. I think we are more used to seeing struggle from poorly chosen uke waza than relaxed defeat from uke recognizing the lack of suki to continue launching an attack. Uke needs to let go of defeat and re-establish a better position.

Ledyard Sensei being among many whom I have "attacked" in the sense a verbal command asked me to do something that every part of my body said "are you crazy?" I think a real component of aiki is a defense that presents no openings and an offense that is smart enough to realize when that battle is lost to move onto the next. The friction of a conscious decision to change interaction is sufficient to delay timing beyond the window of opportunity in which kaeshi waza exists. But I also think kaeshi waza at its highest level (non-conscious movement) is the aiki exchange we strive to achieve.

Quote:
I think that, when one starts to really understand connection, the result is an understanding of why there was atemi in every technique in the old days. You have to disrupt the opponent's ability to maintain his connection to you while you stay connected to him. The way to do that is to put him "out of phase" with you via the atemi. In practice this can be simply getting him to react to an atemi. In fighting you break something. Either way, it breaks the connection the partner has with your center, at least for a moment, and puts him out of sync so he can't adjust to what you are doing.

In the end, it's kaeshiwaza that gives you an understanding why it was said that Aikido is 90% atemi.
I have seen this concept start to emerge and I am wholly impressed by the simplicity of the statement and its accuracy.
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Old 10-21-2010, 03:00 PM   #37
Howard Popkin
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

When you want to move someone, you have 3 choices -
1) Ask them nicely to move
2) Break their balance
3) Hit them ( to break their balance)

Just because you didn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.


Howard
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Old 10-21-2010, 05:11 PM   #38
niall
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

4.Make them want to move. The warm sun got the man to take off his overcoat, not the cold north wind.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


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Old 10-21-2010, 07:10 PM   #39
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

Quote:
A real counter takes place the instant the nage puts his hands on you. So you won't see anything that looks like a good developing technique because it never gets to develop, it's gone in the instant he touches me.
That's what my sensei (Kato) says. The technique is taken away at the point of initial contact. He humors some of us and lets us do our version but we usually get a raised eyebrow.

Last edited by akiy : 10-21-2010 at 10:08 PM. Reason: fixed quote tags
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Old 10-23-2010, 03:36 AM   #40
Jon Marshall
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

Hi George,

I've read and enjoyed your ideas on atemi before, but have never really considered the relationship between atemi and kuzushi, so this is an interesting subject for me.

Some questions, if I may:
1. Are you suggesting that these "cross-over points" are good insertion points for atemi?
2. Do you think we should be putting more atemi (to get a reaction rather than to necessarily make contact) back into our practice to help us learn both how to atemi and where the crossover points are?
3. Do you think that some sort of supplementary practice is necessary for aikidoka to get better at atemi (actually making contact and being able to hit hard)? If so, what?

Sorry to drag out a thread you might have thought you were finished with, but, at the risk of being sycophantic, you are one of the sensei whose opinions I look out for.

I found this quote particularly interesting.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
If anyone thinks that ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo have much to do with fighting, they don't understand what is being practiced in this art.
I have come across the idea of ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo relating to straight, hook, and uppercut, as exemplified by Kuroiwa Sensei. Is this the sort of thing you mean?

I'll stop bombarding you with questions now.

Thanks,
Jon
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Old 10-24-2010, 12:34 AM   #41
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

Quote:
Jon Marshall wrote: View Post
Hi George,

I've read and enjoyed your ideas on atemi before, but have never really considered the relationship between atemi and kuzushi, so this is an interesting subject for me.

Some questions, if I may:
1. Are you suggesting that these "cross-over points" are good insertion points for atemi?
2. Do you think we should be putting more atemi (to get a reaction rather than to necessarily make contact) back into our practice to help us learn both how to atemi and where the crossover points are?
3. Do you think that some sort of supplementary practice is necessary for aikidoka to get better at atemi (actually making contact and being able to hit hard)? If so, what?

Sorry to drag out a thread you might have thought you were finished with, but, at the risk of being sycophantic, you are one of the sensei whose opinions I look out for.

I found this quote particularly interesting.

I have come across the idea of ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo relating to straight, hook, and uppercut, as exemplified by Kuroiwa Sensei. Is this the sort of thing you mean?

I'll stop bombarding you with questions now.

Thanks,
Jon
No Jon, the so-called cross-over points are completely different issues than the points at which you would throw an atemi, if necessary. It's possible that they might be the same point in the technique but not necessarily.

Kuroiwa Sensei's "boxing" related movements were simply ways of running the energy of a connection such as katatetori using standard boxing punching movements. These movements as used to move a partner were not functioning as strikes but rather were strikes in a different context but in Aikido waza were simply efficient ways to run the spirals that move a partner / opponent.

More atemi waza is not necessarily a good thing in Aikido practice. Notice I say "practice". As a trans-formative art, Aikido is the study of "connection" both mental and physical. Folks who over use atemi typically do so to make it hard for an opponent to counter them. But in practice we are striving to develop ourselves and our spirits to the point at which no perceived separation exists. Atemi waza can serve to act as a crutch allowing for bad connection or lack of "aiki" in ones technique. Your stuff doesn't work so you "bop" the other guy...

No, most atemi in what I do is "implicit" rather than "explicit". The ukes are taught not to take the kind of ukemi that makes it necessary to make the atemi "explicit". I am not saying "collude" with the partner when taking ukemi, but I am saying don't turn the interaction in to a contest or the atemi will be right there.

Now, if you are one of those folks who insists on making Aikido be about street self defense or some imagined encounter with another accomplished martial practitioner, then you should be putting the atemi in on every technique. If you look at O-Sensei's "Aiki-Budo" from the thirties, there was a devastating atemi of some sort on EVERY entry. That disappears after the war in normal practice where the goal is to achieve kuzushi at the moment of contact via "aiki" or Connection. There is a film of Saito Sensei I have somewhere in which he takes a number of kihon waza and shows where all the atemi are. Some techniques have as many as five atemi possibilities. But you can't do all of them or even any of them sometimes and have the "flow" of movement and connection for which Aikido is famous. In fighting you don't care about this, you just need to survive but training is misogi and is really about something else entirely. That's my belief and I am sticking to it although I know there are a number of folks here on eh forum who think quite differently.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 10-24-2010, 10:39 AM   #42
Jon Marshall
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

Thanks George,

I shall reflect on all that and experiment accordingly. No I'm not fixated on self-defence, but I do find that if I stray too far from such practicalities then I become less clear on just what it is that I'm practising. I love aikido practice for its own sake, but I guess my vision of aikido as misogi is as strong or clear as yours.

Thanks again,
Jon
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Old 10-24-2010, 01:46 PM   #43
Jon Marshall
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

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Jon Marshall wrote: View Post
I love aikido practice for its own sake, but I guess my vision of aikido as misogi is as strong or clear as yours.
Oops, I meant "is not".

Jon
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Old 10-26-2010, 10:17 PM   #44
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

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Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
The whole point about nage being bigger than Tori is irrelevant IMO. An instructional video should illustrate mechanics clearly.
I disagree... height and strength should be irrelevant but sensei possesses much more 'center' and as we all know the Aikido 101 syllabus states power comes from the center... clearly uke (opps Yoshinkan terminology coming out) is out matched.

<knock knock> is this thing on... I'll be here all week folks...
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