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Old 10-25-2010, 03:59 PM   #201
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Re: To bow or not to bow

Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Alejandro we bow and respect Doshu and follow the traditions
So your definition of what is and what is not Aikido is "bow, respect Doshu and follow the traditions"? Your Aikido is so because you bow, respect Doshu and follow the traditions, even when it does not resemble O Sensei's Aikido at all. Other's won't be Aikido because they don't bow, respect Doshu or follow the traditions even when done both in intention and form in the same manner as O Sensei?

That's an ugly definition, but hey, everything's ok.

BTW, what are those traditions without which we cannot do Aikido? Wear black hakama from shodan on is one of those? Clapping a la Shinto or bowing? And bowing with left hand first and then the right one? Or with both at the same time? Iwama's bukiwaza or Shingu's? Or Saotome's? Or Nishio's? Or... what the hell is Aikido, Carina? Oh, yes. If we bow, respect Doshu and follow some (which?) traditions, it's Aikido. Weird.
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Old 10-25-2010, 04:12 PM   #202
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
So your definition of what is and what is not Aikido is "bow, respect Doshu and follow the traditions"? Your Aikido is so because you bow, respect Doshu and follow the traditions, even when it does not resemble O Sensei's Aikido at all. Other's won't be Aikido because they don't bow, respect Doshu or follow the traditions even when done both in intention and form in the same manner as O Sensei?That's an ugly definition, but hey, everything's ok.
O'Sensei is the founder from Aikido, our aikido is a bit different but the root is the same, and aikido is all, techniques, bowing, name the techniques in japanese. There are many different kind of doing the techniques, but most of them bow, because they are doing aikido. Perhaps in spanish I could explain it better, but this is a challenge

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
BTW, what are those traditions without which we cannot do Aikido? Wear black hakama from shodan on is one of those? Clapping a la Shinto or bowing? And bowing with left hand first and then the right one? Or with both at the same time? Iwama's bukiwaza or Shingu's? Or Saotome's? Or Nishio's? Or... what the hell is Aikido, Carina? Oh, yes. If we bow, respect Doshu and follow some (which?) traditions, it's Aikido. Weird.
We wear hakama from 2 Kyu the men and 4 Kyu women, we bow, almost both hands..Tell me except you, who else from the ones you named don't bow?

And Alejandro, thank you very much for this opinion change it is nice, just a little train, compensating that we don't have aikido today
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Old 10-25-2010, 04:18 PM   #203
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Alejandro we... follow the traditions
Ah, the traditions...

- Mirror of Modernity: Invented Traditions of Modern Japan

- The Invention of Tradition

Read them.

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Old 10-25-2010, 04:22 PM   #204
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Ok I will, and also most of your publications from your blog, I discoverd it the other day...
But Demetrio how do you know that that what you advised me to read is true?
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Old 10-25-2010, 04:24 PM   #205
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Re: To bow or not to bow

Did I say they were true?

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Old 10-25-2010, 04:28 PM   #206
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Did I say they were true?
you are turning the "tortilla"
Then what, tha traditions are real or just invented? In the time from O'Sensei, they wore hakamas, they bowed, so it is all invented?
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Old 10-25-2010, 04:31 PM   #207
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
O'Sensei is the founder from Aikido, our aikido is a bit different but the root is the same, and aikido is all, techniques, bowing, name the techniques in japanese. There are many different kind of doing the techniques, but most of them bow, because they are doing aikido. Perhaps in spanish I could explain it better, but this is a challenge
Is O Sensei the father of modern Aikido? Does Kisshomaru's name ring a bell? Or Tohei's?

Name of the techniques? Are you talking "ikkyo" or "ikkajo" or "robuse" or "ude osae" or "oshi taoshi" or... What's in a name?

Do you bow a la Shinto? Do you clap like O Sensei did? How dare you call your "art" Aikido then?

Mos of them bow "because they are doing Aikido"? Your pivotal point is that bowing equals Aikido equals bowing? Huh? Really?

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
We wear hakama from 2 Kyu the men and 4 Kyu women, we bow, almost both hands..Tell me except you, who else from the ones you named don't bow?
Oh, I see. What tradition is that? Certainly not Spanish Federation's. And absolutely, positively, not O Sensei's tradition at all. Also, while I'm defending those who don't bow, let me be clear on this: I do bow. I do clap. I do Aikido. People I know do not bow. Do not clap. Do better Aikido than me, you, Willi B. and many others.

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
And Alejandro, thank you very much for this opinion change it is nice, just a little train, compensating that we don't have aikido today
If you don't have an Aikido class scheduled, you could try a different art for your odd days. Will widen your perspective. Stay cool.
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Old 10-25-2010, 04:32 PM   #208
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Then what, tha traditions are real or just invented? In the time from O'Sensei, they wore hakamas, they bowed, so it is all invented?
They wore hakama since day -1. They clapped more than bowed. And they did not call the art "Aikido". But you should know that by now.
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Old 10-25-2010, 04:42 PM   #209
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Is O Sensei the father of modern Aikido? Does Kisshomaru's name ring a bell? Or Tohei's?
of course
Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
IName of the techniques? Are you talking "ikkyo" or "ikkajo" or "robuse" or "ude osae" or "oshi taoshi" or... What's in a name?
Ikkyo yes, the other no..

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Do you bow a la Shinto? Do you clap like O Sensei did? How dare you call your "art" Aikido then?
We only bow but call it Aikido, because it is

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Mos of them bow "because they are doing Aikido"? Your pivotal point is that bowing equals Aikido equals bowing? Huh? Really?
NO bowing it only one of the things you do, but an important

[quote=Alejandro Villanueva;267009]Oh, I see. What tradition is that? Certainly not Spanish Federation's. And absolutely, positively, not O Sensei's tradition at all. Also, while I'm defending those who don't bow, let me be clear on this: I do bow. I do clap. I do Aikido. People I know do not bow. Do not clap. Do better Aikido than me, you, Willi B. and many others[./QUOTE]
We are not discussing who does better aikido, that we only can demonstrate in the tatami

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
If you don't have an Aikido class scheduled, you could try a different art for your odd days. Will widen your perspective. Stay cool.
then why are you answering, you can also leave it for tomorrow or next week, and don't worry I have lots of things to do, only think all the reading from Demetrio
Don't you like if somebody is nice to you, are you not used that anybody thanks your for anything? Ok it is pretty late, have sweet dreams
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Old 10-25-2010, 04:43 PM   #210
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Re: To bow or not to bow

Maybe the invention is in how a given tradition meaning and significance is reinterpreted.

BTW, what is a tradition?.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 10-25-2010 at 04:46 PM.

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Old 10-25-2010, 04:47 PM   #211
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Maybe the invention is how a given tradition meaning and significance is reinterpreted.

BTW, what is a tradition?.
Tomorrow I'll read about that and will answer,, and the last aswer from Alejandro. yes I knew.
Sweet dreams to you too , que sueñes con los angelitos
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Old 10-25-2010, 04:51 PM   #212
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Re: To bow or not to bow

Carina, your point is (or was) that if you don't bow you must stop calling what you do "Aikido". I'm no talking I kick ass stronger than you or vice versa. I'm talking people who don't bow practice Aikido just as you say you do even when your tradition is far removed from O Sensei's. Your right to call your teacher's art Aikido is not higher than the right of said people. And still you say you do Aikido "becaise it is" (sic). I won't discuss what kind of argument is that because this is not a debate forum, but an aiki one.
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Old 10-25-2010, 05:34 PM   #213
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Of course everybody can have different opinions, I believe Aikido also opens the mind...But it just looks very rare if only one student does not bow, for me it has nothing to do with religion it is just a greeting beside a sign of respect to Doshu and the sensei and tradition. I
And for someone else, it means something else.

This thread has gone on for eight pages now, and I think it has been well established that none of us controls what an action means to others. I know what a bow means to me; I may be able to broaden my own view of what it can mean, but on the other hand, on contemplation I may find that my view narrows. I don't know what a bow means to you, and it is arrogant and impertinent for me to tell you what a bow should mean to you. It is arrogant and impertinent for me to tell you that my beliefs on the subject are the only ones that matter, to the point of even saying that you may not have your own views. Isn't that what we are really saying when we say, "A bow means such-and-such, that's exactly what it means, that's all that it means" -- as if we were stating that 2+2=4? When we say, "A bow means this, that's all that it means," are we not saying that all other views are invalid?

You may state what a bow means to you. You may not state with any claim to truth what it means to anyone else, nor may you state with any claim to truth whether that person may change their view like they'd change their shirt.
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Old 10-25-2010, 09:45 PM   #214
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Smile Re: To bow or not to bow

Bjorn, having read some of your posts I see you are following a spiritual path and so with respect and in a zen fashion I ask you this question: Does he spiritually bow?
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Old 10-26-2010, 12:35 AM   #215
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Carina, your point is (or was) that if you don't bow you must stop calling what you do "Aikido". I'm no talking I kick ass stronger than you or vice versa. I'm talking people who don't bow practice Aikido just as you say you do even when your tradition is far removed from O Sensei's. Your right to call your teacher's art Aikido is not higher than the right of said people. And still you say you do Aikido "becaise it is" (sic). I won't discuss what kind of argument is that because this is not a debate forum, but an aiki one.
Yes it is a forum for aiki and thats what I liked to explain to you we are following the traditions coming from O'Sensei, we are now only bowing but not clapping, we wear our hakamas with 2/4 Kyu and not when we start, our techniques are bit different( but no much) from what O'Sensei did but it is still aikido... But if you don't bow anymore you do not show repect for O''Sensei and next what???
And Alejandro sorry if you understand I were talking strong, perhaps in my small english it sounds like that, I repeat I'm calm and only try to explain you my thoughts.
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Old 10-26-2010, 12:43 AM   #216
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Maybe the invention is in how a given tradition meaning and significance is reinterpreted.

BTW, what is a tradition?.
Traditions are beliefs or costums getting from one generation to the next and of course it is like you whisper a phrase in the ear of you neighbour, after passing by 10 guys the sense may change a lot...

And about galizian I think your sometimes showed cynicism is only a cover
In my dojo is a galizian who trained Iwama in La Coruña, a very nice guy, very humble and almost shy who is always helping the newbies

Last edited by guest1234567 : 10-26-2010 at 12:46 AM.
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Old 10-26-2010, 01:32 AM   #217
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
And for someone else, it means something else.

This thread has gone on for eight pages now, and I think it has been well established that none of us controls what an action means to others. I know what a bow means to me; I may be able to broaden my own view of what it can mean, but on the other hand, on contemplation I may find that my view narrows. I don't know what a bow means to you, and it is arrogant and impertinent for me to tell you what a bow should mean to you. It is arrogant and impertinent for me to tell you that my beliefs on the subject are the only ones that matter, to the point of even saying that you may not have your own views. Isn't that what we are really saying when we say, "A bow means such-and-such, that's exactly what it means, that's all that it means" -- as if we were stating that 2+2=4? When we say, "A bow means this, that's all that it means," are we not saying that all other views are invalid?

You may state what a bow means to you. You may not state with any claim to truth what it means to anyone else, nor may you state with any claim to truth whether that person may change their view like they'd change their shirt.
Mary I agree with you all of us have different thoughts what bow means, but on the end I find it is a pity not to bow anymore, in only a few years the aikido is changing but we still wear hakamas, for most of the aikidoists it is a pride to wear them, and the most important I think we must show respect for the founder a wise man for his epoch.
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Old 10-26-2010, 03:10 AM   #218
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Re: To bow or not to bow

Man this thread moves faaast

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
The example that Tim Ruijs is given... Like "in my dojo we wear pink uwagi with dotted hakama, you don't wear one, you don't train here". I'm glad I live where I live and train were I train, must be awful to work under such an authoritarian environment.
Too bad I could not make myself clear on this. The door of my dojo is open to anyone to enter, but equally open for one to leave. To enter means to accept certain rules, mostly Japanese tradition [ouch, there is that word again].

In a dojo there is no democracy, the dojo cho is the 'boss'. Does that automatically imply an authoritarian environment? No, I believe not. A good teacher evaluates and judges everything that happens in a dojo and possibly makes adjustments where and how he sees fit. Can these adjustments also apply to himself? Off course. that's good. The students will see their teacher making an effort to grow and change and help them on their way (Way?). And respect him for it, as he respects their hard work.
Running a dojo involves more than teaching alone.

You will have to make (hard) judgement calls every now and then.
Masakatsu agatsu.

on the side: if a teacher wants everyone to wear pink uwagi I'd say why not? It is the students choice to accept the rules of the dojo.
Your judgement on his decisions/way is an entirely different matter

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Including whether or not to make accommodations for students?
It strongly depends on the reason the accommodation is required for. Any physical, mental limitation can probably easily be resolved as I mentioned before.

Another matter is having difference of opinion. In this case the student must decide whether or not he can find a way to adopt the rules of the dojo and still remain true to himself.

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Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
I also mentioned mental limitations, including psychological disease. It doesn't mean you have to be Dawkins, categorising religion as such. Just as you can physically condition people not to be able to do something (give someone a spinal injury so they can't bow), you can do the same with mental conditioning (bring someone up so bowing is harder than taking part in the pre-keiko sex free-for-all). It is still a condition in which someone cannot do something.
In these cases the teacher and student probably find a way that works and will other students understand the situation.

Quote:
I fully agree that if the student simply has a different opinion on how things should be done, it is a different matter.


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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
You may state what a bow means to you. You may not state with any claim to truth what it means to anyone else, nor may you state with any claim to truth whether that person may change their view like they'd change their shirt.
Agreed. Totally.

Last edited by Tim Ruijs : 10-26-2010 at 03:12 AM.
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Old 10-26-2010, 03:40 AM   #219
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Yes it is a forum for aiki and thats what I liked to explain to you we are following the traditions coming from O'Sensei, we are now only bowing but not clapping, we wear our hakamas with 2/4 Kyu and not when we start, our techniques are bit different( but no much) from what O'Sensei did but it is still aikido...
And so, the guy who doesn't bow is doing Aikido too. You know, the rules applies for all, not only for you.

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
But if you don't bow anymore you do not show repect for O''Sensei and next what???
Excuse me? So the only way to show respect is bowing? Not sure if I read you right.

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
And Alejandro sorry if you understand I were talking strong, perhaps in my small english it sounds like that, I repeat I'm calm and only try to explain you my thoughts.
Oh, yes. English is also not my strong point, as someone previously pointed out.
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Old 10-26-2010, 05:11 AM   #220
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Mary I agree with you all of us have different thoughts what bow means, but on the end I find it is a pity not to bow anymore, in only a few years the aikido is changing but we still wear hakamas, for most of the aikidoists it is a pride to wear them, and the most important I think we must show respect for the founder a wise man for his epoch.
Sure. But is bowing the only way that a person can show respect? That seems like a very limiting view.
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Old 10-26-2010, 05:25 AM   #221
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
In a dojo there is no democracy, the dojo cho is the 'boss'.
This is so obvious that I'm not sure why, after 9 pages of "discussion", it's still being repeated. Of course you can have your rules in your dojo; that is not in dispute. What I question is the wisdom of some of these rules. Every demand and every restriction that you place on people is an imposition. Some they will take on willingly, because they can see the benefit; others they may not agree on, to the point of walking out your open door. Just because someone walks out your door doesn't make your rule a bad one, but on the other hand, just because you, the dojo owner, made a rule doesn't mean that it's a sensible rule. Thus, I think it's wise for makers-of-rules to consider (and always be willing to reconsider) whether there's real utility in their rules, and also whether they really understand the reasons why some people might have problems with them, or are just high-handedly dismissing those reasons as not very important. Yes, you can demand that people wear pink hakama in your dojo. You'd be stupid to do so. "My way or the highway" is an ultimatum, and people who casually toss around ultimatums find that they lose their effectiveness pretty quickly. Boss of the dojo or not, you still have to choose your battles, so choose them wisely.
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Old 10-26-2010, 06:00 AM   #222
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
This is so obvious that I'm not sure why, after 9 pages of "discussion", it's still being repeated. Of course you can have your rules in your dojo; that is not in dispute. What I question is the wisdom of some of these rules. Every demand and every restriction that you place on people is an imposition. Some they will take on willingly, because they can see the benefit; others they may not agree on, to the point of walking out your open door. Just because someone walks out your door doesn't make your rule a bad one, but on the other hand, just because you, the dojo owner, made a rule doesn't mean that it's a sensible rule. Thus, I think it's wise for makers-of-rules to consider (and always be willing to reconsider) whether there's real utility in their rules, and also whether they really understand the reasons why some people might have problems with them, or are just high-handedly dismissing those reasons as not very important. Yes, you can demand that people wear pink hakama in your dojo. You'd be stupid to do so. "My way or the highway" is an ultimatum, and people who casually toss around ultimatums find that they lose their effectiveness pretty quickly. Boss of the dojo or not, you still have to choose your battles, so choose them wisely.
You question the wisdom of the rules. Rightfully so. The mere existance of rules and how they are enforced clearly reflect how the dojo operates. One dojo, one teacher, so basically you judge the quality of the teacher. Hopefully the teacher is wise to use each opportunity to check himself (when conflicts arise). Keeps struggling to find/keep his Way so to speak.
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Old 10-26-2010, 06:48 AM   #223
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
And so, the guy who doesn't bow is doing Aikido too. You know, the rules applies for all, not only for you.

Excuse me? So the only way to show respect is bowing? Not sure if I read you right.

Oh, yes. English is also not my strong point, as someone previously pointed out.
No Alejandro and Mary it is not, there is a lot more, but what are you both doing entering in a tatami where there is a picture from O'Sensei?
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Old 10-26-2010, 07:29 AM   #224
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
No Alejandro and Mary it is not, there is a lot more, but what are you both doing entering in a tatami where there is a picture from O'Sensei?
What am I doing entering my living room where there's a picture of my mother?
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Old 10-26-2010, 07:36 AM   #225
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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What am I doing entering my living room where there's a picture of my mother?
Idon' t know Mary
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