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Old 10-20-2010, 01:57 AM   #176
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Re: To bow or not to bow

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Carina, what about other lineages that do not follow Hombu and don't pay homage to Doshu (so to speak)?

BTW, be sure to say hello to CÚsar.
Hi Alejandro, of course if you don't follow the doshu it is different, I respect all traditions and if I train in another dojo I would follow the ones they use there, I were in a few ninjutsu classes and clapped and bowed as everybody else...
I will give yuour regards to Cesar, thanks I'll see him in November in the Seminar with Frank Noel.
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Old 10-20-2010, 07:52 PM   #177
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Re: To bow or not to bow

Going back to comments about "when in Rome, do as the Roman's do," you have to bear in mind that the Romans kept slaves, nailed Christians to crosses and so on.

It is a good general rule to learn and fit in with any new culture. I think this falls under peace with your environment. It is a good general rule to accommodate anyone you meet. That is peace between yourself and others. It is also a good general rule to be true to your own little segment of the universe. That is peace with oneself. An aikido-related concept for this balance is called Sanwa 三和 (threefold peace).

If a one-handed man comes into the dojo, do you deny him the right to practice because he cannot do techniques on one side? If your dojo has claps before a kamidana, he will not be able to do that either. Someone with a spinal injury and knee problems may simply be incapable of bowing. I would imagine most would accommodate this kind of obvious physical limitation with little argument. How about a mental limitation? The potential for an autistic student to improve themselves through aikido is enormous. What if such a student cannot perform some of the etiquette due to their condition? The sliding scale here is from physical to mental limitations. On either side, you have situations where the physical or mental impediment is not so serious as to stop them at least partially doing something.

I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all rule. There are basic principles of respect that must be brought into balance.
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Old 10-20-2010, 08:00 PM   #178
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Re: To bow or not to bow

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Going back to comments about "when in Rome, do as the Roman's do," you have to bear in mind that the Romans kept slaves, nailed Christians to crosses and so on.

It is a good general rule to learn and fit in with any new culture. I think this falls under peace with your environment. It is a good general rule to accommodate anyone you meet. That is peace between yourself and others. It is also a good general rule to be true to your own little segment of the universe. That is peace with oneself. An aikido-related concept for this balance is called Sanwa 三和 (threefold peace).

If a one-handed man comes into the dojo, do you deny him the right to practice because he cannot do techniques on one side? If your dojo has claps before a kamidana, he will not be able to do that either. Someone with a spinal injury and knee problems may simply be incapable of bowing. I would imagine most would accommodate this kind of obvious physical limitation with little argument. How about a mental limitation? The potential for an autistic student to improve themselves through aikido is enormous. What if such a student cannot perform some of the etiquette due to their condition? The sliding scale here is from physical to mental limitations. On either side, you have situations where the physical or mental impediment is not so serious as to stop them at least partially doing something.

I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all rule. There are basic principles of respect that must be brought into balance.
Carl, well said!

Gregory Makuch
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Old 10-25-2010, 08:35 AM   #179
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Bjorn Saw wrote: View Post
I had a Jewish student that could not bow to O Sensei's picture but had no problems to bow to my little Kamidana (the small wooden shrine on the wall), so I just moved O Sensei's picture a little to the side.
However insignificant this might seem, I think it is wrong, very wrong.
In your dojo, you make the rules. Running a dojo is a big part of your Aikido development (for both you and your students). A dojo has one master (you). Yours seems to have many: any student that does not like a rule can potentially change it. Wrong. Either they adapt or leave.
Off course it is good to think about it, talk about it, put it on a forum . But stay centered, know your Path.

Should in the course of your understanding of Aikido your lessons change accordingly, so be it. That would only reflect your growing as Aikidoka (teacher). Perhaps even the way you teach changes over time; probably has.

FYI In my dojo we bow to O Sensei to show our respect and gratitude for his his effort to develop Aikido.

Quote:
In Iwama O Sensei did not bow to his own picture or of that of another but he bowed to the Kamidana (Spirit altar). So I often say we bow in respect to the Spirit (or God if you prefer).
I would say the image in his dojo was there not for him, but for his students when in absence.
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Old 10-25-2010, 08:50 AM   #180
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Re: To bow or not to bow

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
If a one-handed man comes into the dojo, do you deny him the right to practice because he cannot do techniques on one side? If your dojo has claps before a kamidana, he will not be able to do that either. Someone with a spinal injury and knee problems may simply be incapable of bowing. I would imagine most would accommodate this kind of obvious physical limitation with little argument. How about a mental limitation? The potential for an autistic student to improve themselves through aikido is enormous. What if such a student cannot perform some of the etiquette due to their condition? The sliding scale here is from physical to mental limitations. On either side, you have situations where the physical or mental impediment is not so serious as to stop them at least partially doing something.

I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all rule. There are basic principles of respect that must be brought into balance.
The OP mentions that a student morally/religiously objects bow. This is not about a physical limitation.

In the situations you describe the student themselves probably already try to do the best they can. I think the intent in the scenarios is quite different. Somebody with bad knees may nod, someone with one arm may clap to his chest or slap his upperleg.
This would be very good Aikido...I think...
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Old 10-25-2010, 09:03 AM   #181
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
However insignificant this might seem, I think it is wrong, very wrong.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
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Old 10-25-2010, 09:30 AM   #182
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Re: To bow or not to bow

So you keep insisting in that no bowing equals no Aikido. Good to know then that O Sensei was also doing Flintstone Ryu and not Aikido.

The example that Tim Rujis is given... Like "in my dojo we wear pink uwagi with dotted hakama, you don't wear one, you don't train here". I'm glad I live where I live and train were I train, must be awful to work under such an authoritarian environment.

And, Jun, this is NOT a personal attack.
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Old 10-25-2010, 12:36 PM   #183
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
However insignificant this might seem, I think it is wrong, very wrong.
In your dojo, you make the rules.
Including whether or not to make accommodations for students?

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-25-2010, 02:29 PM   #184
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
So you keep insisting in that no bowing equals no Aikido. Good to know then that O Sensei was also doing Flintstone Ryu and not Aikido.
.
Alejandro a perhaps silly question, if everybody agrees that O'Sensei is the founder of Aikido, and to bow is a tradition of Aikido if you don't pay homage to O'Sensei you are not doing Aikido, you train but that what you do is another martial art, you can call it as you like but not Aikido...
Remeber I'm here to learn and know very well this is not Aikiforum, I'm the same here than there, I wonder why Demetrio and you are different? And I'm sorry you are no more in Aikiforum...
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Old 10-25-2010, 02:44 PM   #185
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
I wonder why Demetrio and you are different?
Because he's not as cynical (or galician) as me.
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Old 10-25-2010, 03:03 PM   #186
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Because he's not as cynical (or galician) as me.
Demetrio, I don't ment you and Alejandro are different, I mean you and Alejandro are different here in this forum than in Aikiforum..
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Old 10-25-2010, 03:04 PM   #187
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Alejandro a perhaps silly question, if everybody agrees that O'Sensei is the founder of Aikido, and to bow is a tradition of Aikido if you don't pay homage to O'Sensei you are not doing Aikido, you train but that what you do is another martial art, you can call it as you like but not Aikido...
Nobody denies that O Sensei is the founder of Aikido. That opens the door to the debate of whether you, in your dojo, or Cesar for that matter, are doing (O Sensei's) Aikido; but I do believe you don't want to go down that road...

Shall I pay homage to O Sensei? If the answer is yes, who said I don't do it? And if the answer is yes and I don't do it, does that really disqualify my training as Aikido? Huh? Am I getting you right? If I don't pay homage to Euclides, Tales, Newton, Einstein... does that really means I'm not a scientist? I mean... Really??? Says who exactly?

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Remeber I'm here to learn and know very well this is not Aikiforum, I'm the same here than there, I wonder why Demetrio and you are different? And I'm sorry you are no more in Aikiforum...
Demetrio and myself... we're just the same here and there. Don't be so cynical as to ask me why I don't post again in that garden. You shall know that my opinions there are not of the like of Victor "Palpatine" Gutierrez and so I have the great honor of being the first and last permanent ban there. But now that you ask, please, pass my warmest regards to the Imperator and tell him we still shall meet in any stage, just when he's last expecting me. I'm longing to train with him and have him explain to me what's that yondan worth.

And, Jun, this is not a personal attack. Too.
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Old 10-25-2010, 03:05 PM   #188
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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I mean you and Alejandro are different here in this forum than in Aikiforum
When in Rome...

BTW, the cynical is me, not Carina

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 10-25-2010 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 10-25-2010, 03:08 PM   #189
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
When in Rome...
This is not an answer,
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Old 10-25-2010, 03:13 PM   #190
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
This is not an answer,
Yours wasn't a question.

Can we stop hijacking this thread? please.
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Old 10-25-2010, 03:14 PM   #191
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Nobody denies that O Sensei is the founder of Aikido. That opens the door to the debate of whether you, in your dojo, or Cesar for that matter, are doing (O Sensei's) Aikido; but I do believe you don't want to go down that road...
We are doing Endo+ -, better Frank Noels Aikido, but still respect Doshu

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Shall I pay homage to O Sensei? If the answer is yes, who said I don't do it? And if the answer is yes and I don't do it, does that really disqualify my training as Aikido? Huh? Am I getting you right? If I don't pay homage to Euclides, Tales, Newton, Einstein... does that really means I'm not a scientist? I mean... Really??? Says who exactly?
But it does not hurt you to bow and it is a sign of respect

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Demetrio and myself... we're just the same here and there. Don't be so cynical as to ask me why I don't post again in that garden. You shall know that my opinions there are not of the like of Victor "Palpatine" Gutierrez and so I have the great honor of being the first and last permanent ban there. But now that you ask, please, pass my warmest regards to the Imperator and tell him we still shall meet in any stage, just when he's last expecting me. I'm longing to train with him and have him explain to me what's that yondan worth.
Alejandro I know this is not an attack, a assure it Yun..
I met Victor once in a semnar.. He does not write very much in the Aikiforum, since I returned,he din't write anything
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Old 10-25-2010, 03:16 PM   #192
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Yours wasn't a question.

Can we stop hijacking this thread? please.
Ok Demetrio, thats it, in Aikiforum you wouldn't say so, on the contrary...But ok I finish... Maybe sometime I'll understand, I hope it is not what I am thinking
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Old 10-25-2010, 03:19 PM   #193
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Ok Demetrio, thats it, in Aikiforum you wouldn't say so, on the contrary...
Give it a try, but there. Don't bring aikiforum issues to aikiweb.
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Old 10-25-2010, 03:31 PM   #194
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
We are doing Endo+ -, better Frank Noels Aikido, but still respect Doshu
But of course! And then Endo or Noel are doing O Sensei's Aikido...?

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
But it does not hurt you to bow and it is a sign of respect
Well. It does not hurt me. It does hurt, however, at roughly half the world's population. Cold on your tracks?
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Old 10-25-2010, 03:38 PM   #195
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
But of course! And then Endo or Noel are doing O Sensei's Aikido...?
No, thats why I said we still respect Doshu

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Well. It does not hurt me. It does hurt, however, at roughly half the world's population. Cold on your tracks?
I'm very calm and I'm not cynic, I'm not used to it
Ale, Ale Alejandro , my youngest son is also Alejandro and very naughty...
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Old 10-25-2010, 03:55 PM   #196
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
The OP mentions that a student morally/religiously objects bow. This is not about a physical limitation.

In the situations you describe the student themselves probably already try to do the best they can. I think the intent in the scenarios is quite different. Somebody with bad knees may nod, someone with one arm may clap to his chest or slap his upperleg.
This would be very good Aikido...I think...
I also mentioned mental limitations, including psychological disease. It doesn't mean you have to be Dawkins, categorising religion as such. Just as you can physically condition people not to be able to do something (give someone a spinal injury so they can't bow), you can do the same with mental conditioning (bring someone up so bowing is harder than taking part in the pre-keiko sex free-for-all). It is still a condition in which someone cannot do something.

I fully agree that if the student simply has a different opinion on how things should be done, it is a different matter.
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Old 10-25-2010, 04:03 PM   #197
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
No, thats why I said we still respect Doshu.
So maybe, and just maybe, you should stop calling whatever you are doing "Aikido".
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Old 10-25-2010, 04:09 PM   #198
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
I

I fully agree that if the student simply has a different opinion on how things should be done, it is a different matter.
Of course everybody can have different opinions, I believe Aikido also opens the mind...But it just looks very rare if only one student does not bow, for me it has nothing to do with religion it is just a greeting beside a sign of respect to Doshu and the sensei and tradition. I'm not catholic and not used to cross entering in a church, but I feel rare when everybody is crossing.

And please forgive the little discussion with my countrymans, I was just curious about their different behaviour and told them so because of their nice "this is no the aikiforum"
I think we must hold together as spanish aikidoists
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Old 10-25-2010, 04:10 PM   #199
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
So maybe, and just maybe, you should stop calling whatever you are doing "Aikido".
Alejandro we bow and respect Doshu and follow the traditions
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Old 10-25-2010, 04:52 PM   #200
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Re: To bow or not to bow

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Give it a try, but there. Don't bring aikiforum issues to aikiweb.
There is nothing to answer there.
Sorry for that, I explained it before..
And I mostly say what I think..
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