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Old 10-13-2010, 01:15 AM   #51
WilliB
Dojo: Minato Aikikai
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Re: Japanezsing

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
1. leave the dojo and go somewhere else
this is more difficult that it sounds. I have a sort of equity built up there.
The adjustment to a new dojo is difficult as you have to change methods of doing things, learn things their way. It is a challenge for your body and mind to relearn something new that isn't so different then before.
Mr. Anonynous,

unless you are talking about a financial investment in the dojo building, purchase of miscellanous Samurai gear or whatever, frankly, that is nonsense.
Whatever you have invested in training reflexes in to your body, you have that and you take it with you.
I go dojo hopping all the time, and contrary to pondering endlessly about it, I enjoy it tremendously.

Please get off your samurai steed, relax, and just pop in some dojos in your neighbourhood. Sheesh.
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Old 10-13-2010, 02:09 AM   #52
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
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Re: Japanezsing

Anonymous

` Japanezing ` is not unique to your present dojo, you will find it in many other dojos in some form or another.
I have noticed that in many dojos they use more and more Japanese than I can could ever understand. As in many countries, here in the UK we have many area dialects, some are hard to understand even if you are English :-) can you imagine the different Japanese terminology being spoken. I recall when I was with Chiba Sensei in the late 1960s, we were visiting a northern dojo where Sensei was greeted in unison in ``Japanese `` , Chiba Sensei looked quizzically at me and asked " Mr Ellis, what did they say ?" , I just gave Sensei a blank look as I had no idea.

In the 1950s Kenshiro Abbe Sensei had no names for techniques, he would simply indicate the technique and say " necessary " .
We managed fine with that.
I understand that Sensei Ken Williams the first UK student of Aikido now teaches Aikido witth only Engish names for all the techniques.
As a student of just nine months, I don't see your teacher appreciating you questioning his teaching. As I said earlier, take the best from this and any dojo, which I think that students do all over the world....

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
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Old 10-13-2010, 04:36 AM   #53
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Japanezsing

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Changing dojo is a huge change. But not an impossible change. It will have to start from zero, and start new equity. 9 months isn't a long time but long enough for things to gel. To be in a rhythm and comfortable until this shit happened.
If you think it's tough to leave after 9 months, how hard do you think it will be after 1 year? 2 years? Or longer? What about if you actually get rank?

At 9 months, changing to a new way of doing techniques won't be nearly as hard as it would be after 1 or 2 years.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 10-13-2010, 06:45 AM   #54
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Japanezsing

Hello Annoyed,

A few more comments.

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
I am asking for a bit of forgiveness. The hour is late and the body is weary, as the mind. I hear what everyone is saying. To this juncture it is may humble intention to stay anonymous and use every syntactic, pompous verbiage required at hand not to remove the mask from which I speak from. This would cause allot of problems for me with others in the dojo. My advantage stems from the paucity of comprehension of my native language by those who respect the pedagogue of the dojo. And the Sensei too lacks the complete comprehension and command of the English parlance, yet peruses these virtual hallowed halls. This charade is getting to be at least a pain in the Biblical ass.
PAG. I never suggested that it was wrong to be anonymous. Jun Akiyama sometimes cautions against giving any information that would reveal the poster and the dojo. If your instructor also reads these forums, this is a very strong reason for remaining anonymous. However, the consequence is that the members of the forum have to depend solely on the evidence you yourself provide.

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Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Major points of advice and I whole-heartly am sorry for not addressing every. but believe me I have read each post and taken it seriously:
PAG. I am glad you did read every post. I would have thought less of you if you hadn't.

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
1. leave the dojo and go somewhere else. This is more difficult that it sounds. I have a sort of equity built up there.
PAG. I am not sure what you mean here. It sounds like a serious financial investment, which you would lose if you left the dojo.

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Changing dojo is a huge change. But not an impossible change. It will have to start from zero, and start new equity. 9 months isn't a long time but long enough for things to gel. To be in a rhythm and comfortable until this shit happened.
PAG. You mention equity again. Do you mean something like a body of knowledge and experiences gained from the training practices of the dojo? If you do, I suggest that nine months is not really enough to build up anything solid.
Did the 'shit' happen quite suddenly? You were going along quite happily when, suddenly, things began to go uncomfortably Japanese? Was there any reason for this?
Anyway, if it is any consolation, I changed dojos three times in the first six years of my aikido training and I am still practising 42 years later. Changing dojos taught me a lot about aikido and also how one learns--and teaches--the art.

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
I will scout other places to see where I might fit in and how much will I have to dump.
I do not think you will have to dump anything. If you continue for as long as I have, you can look back on this episode as something of value to teach your own students.
I should tell you that all my aikido teachers were Japanese (with very limited command of English) in the countries where I practised before coming to Japan. Now I am the sensei, but there is no way that I can out-Japanese my Japanese students. I have the impression from your posts that the 'Japaneszing' is a real obstacle to your progress, or to the way you feel you are progressing. Of course, this is something that you will have to deal with yourself. The members of this forum can only offer advice, based on the information you have given and on their own experiences of training.
From where I stand now and look back on my 'aikido life', such cult-like practises sometimes occur, though perhaps not to the extent that they do in your dojo.
In one dojo (and I already had dan rank when I trained there), there was a strained atmosphere, largely because the instructor had 'special' students and these students imitated everything he did short of the Japanese he spoke. So there was a gap between the 'chosen' few and the others. The instructor was trying to build up a group of instructors and he believed that the only way to do this was through very serious and dedicated training, where the students had to abandon their own egos. To achieve this aim, he sometimes went to very severe lengths.
Though I had dan rank and I knew the instructor very well, I was not one of the 'chosen' and I had no need to imitate the instructor in any way at all. I did not need to do so in order to gain his favour. I was coming to live in Japan, so in some sense I was way ahead of the 'chosen' anyway, and they sometimes resented this.

Finally, it takes courage to come on here, even anonymously, and run the gauntlet of the questions that could be asked. That said, I think all the members here are hoping that you will find a way of resolving the problem, such that you still train as hard as you have been doing and are 'enriched' as a result. Apologies if I sound condescending here. This is not my intention.

Best wishes,

PAG

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 10-13-2010 at 06:51 AM.

P A Goldsbury
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Old 10-13-2010, 07:19 AM   #55
phitruong
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Re: Japanezsing

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
I am asking for a bit of forgiveness. The hour is late and the body is weary, as the mind. I hear what everyone is saying. To this juncture it is may humble intention to stay anonymous and use every syntactic, pompous verbiage required at hand not to remove the mask from which I speak from. This would cause allot of problems for me with others in the dojo. My advantage stems from the paucity of comprehension of my native language by those who respect the pedagogue of the dojo. And the Sensei too lacks the complete comprehension and command of the English parlance, yet peruses these virtual hallowed halls. This charade is getting to be at least a pain in the Biblical ass.

Changing dojo is a huge change. But not an impossible change. It will have to start from zero, and start new equity. 9 months isn't a long time but long enough for things to gel. To be in a rhythm and comfortable until this shit happened.
whoa! lots of big words. went right over my head. and that's just as bad as japonizing. prefer simple approach meself.

student asked a guru: what is enlightenment?
guru: eat when hungry. sleep when tired.

if you can change, change.
if you cannot, leave.
every other consideration, unimportant.

now, i don't mind japonizing a bit, for example, wearing a funny skirt called hakama. but i draw the line at wearing a loin cloth, for the reason that i have not figured out how to tie it on correctly without giving me an atomic wedgie.
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Old 10-13-2010, 07:55 AM   #56
Keith Larman
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Re: Japanezsing

Aw, pffft. 9 months may seem like a significant time now, but if you actually stick with Aikido for any amount of time you'll eventually look back and see it as the tiniest blip in your training. Honestly, in the larger scheme of things in life 9 months ain't much for anything non-trivial. Quit complaining and find somewhere else to train. Why are you wasting your time at all on this after only 9 months?

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Old 10-13-2010, 10:21 AM   #57
Janet Rosen
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Re: Japanezsing

I understand that to the OP it feels like a hard thing to do. I left my first dojo, over what I considered deeply serious issues, after a yr and a half, and yes I did lose sleep over it, partly because in that dojo I'd been pretty well indoctrinated into the idea of loyalty. There was no aikiweb then, but there was aikido-l....and I was sufficiently paranoid about anonymity that my sole advisor/reality tester was somebody I selected from aikido-l who 1) lived far away 2) knew nobody involved and 3) could correspond w/ me in a language other than English about it.
Another member of my dojo, w/ just a tad more time in training than me, made the decision to stay for exactly the same reason as the OP: feeling he had too much invested in time and rank (he was 4th kyu at the time) to make a change.
I've gone the other route, changing dojos 5 times as my understanding of what I'm looking for in a teacher/in my own training has changed.
To the OP I say: 9 months is nothing. Many of us lose more time than that due to injuries or family obligations over the course of years of training. Go where the training meets your needs.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 10-13-2010, 10:41 AM   #58
lbb
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Re: Japanezsing

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
1. leave the dojo and go somewhere else
this is more difficult that it sounds. I have a sort of equity built up there.
What is the value of equity in something that you don't want to have?

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
The adjustment to a new dojo is difficult as you have to change methods of doing things, learn things their way. It is a challenge for your body and mind to relearn something new that isn't so different then before.
Yes, it is. But it can be done. I've done it several times when a move (mine or my sensei's) force me to change not just dojos but styles -- this after years of training. The thing is, you have to be willing to completely surrender all of that "equity" -- even if (and maybe especially if) you are starting over again at a different dojo of the same style. You may not have to give up everything you know, but you have to be willing to do so, and maybe the first step is to stop thinking of it as "equity" that you have to hang on to, and start thinking of it as an investment you made and where you have to cold-bloodedly decide if you're now in a situation where continuing to "invest" means throwing good money after bad. Sometimes you have to cut your losses.

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
The quality of the next dojo is a concern. What hang ups and problems do they have. There are new people to deal with and you have to fit in to say the least. Who are you going to rub the wrong way, for example.
Maybe. Their feet may smell, too, and they may all drink Pabst Blue Ribbon...but why borrow trouble?

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Changing dojo is a huge change. But not an impossible change. It will have to start from zero, and start new equity. 9 months isn't a long time but long enough for things to gel. To be in a rhythm and comfortable until this shit happened.
I don't want to disparage your efforts to date, but nine months is not really that much; in fact, I'd say it's the right time to be backing away from an "investment" gone sour, if that is the situation.
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Old 10-17-2010, 08:56 AM   #59
"Annoyed"
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Re: Japanezsing

Thank you for the advice. I see that time invested or as I said having equity of 9 mos isn't all that much to not cut ties. I understand for some that is very little time but for me it isn't as I have developed relationships with people and am comfortable with the gains I have made. I am not so willing to though all that away so quickly and want to find options to the wierd situation at my school.

I feel as if, your dad comes home dressed as woman, say he is no longer your dad. Telling everyone he is now your mother. That is a change that is annoying. You are not going to divorce him as a parent so quickly, deeming him a freak. That is over the top example but I think it works.

In this case, as I have gotten some good input, I have a better idea of what is the accepted norm and what isn't tolerable, being just plain silly. I am going to work through some more and look at my options for other dojos vs. putting up with the new crap for the sake of my connection with other members and the relationships I have and value.

Thank you for the advice.
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Old 10-17-2010, 09:08 AM   #60
WilliB
Dojo: Minato Aikikai
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Re: Japanezsing

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
In this case, as I have gotten some good input, I have a better idea of what is the accepted norm and what isn't tolerable, being just plain silly.
OK. Here is a quick test you could do. Make your self a Chrysantemum seal the size of your palm, and paint it golden.

Then, in the middle of practise, pull it out and shout: "Oi! Kono mondokoro me ni hairanuka!"

If they all drop to their knees, you know it is time to go.
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Old 10-17-2010, 09:21 AM   #61
raul rodrigo
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Re: Japanezsing

Your father will always be your father. Your dojo, on the other hand, is something you can actually change.
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Old 10-17-2010, 12:06 PM   #62
Janet Rosen
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Re: Japanezsing

Quote:
Willi Brix wrote: View Post
OK. Here is a quick test you could do. Make your self a Chrysantemum seal the size of your palm, and paint it golden.

Then, in the middle of practise, pull it out and shout: "Oi! Kono mondokoro me ni hairanuka!"

If they all drop to their knees, you know it is time to go.
ROTFLMAO - thank you for best weird visual image of the day!

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 10-17-2010, 03:00 PM   #63
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Japanezsing

Quote:
Willi Brix wrote: View Post
If they all drop to their knees, you know it is time to go.
Seconded

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 10-17-2010 at 03:03 PM.

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Old 10-18-2010, 07:14 AM   #64
DonMagee
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Re: Japanezsing

I've always seen this as a business proposition. I'm paying them for a service I want. If I am not getting the service, I speak up. If my concerns are not met, I find a place that does meet them.

I have made friends at many of the places I have trained. I am still good friends with many people (including the instructors) of martial arts that I felt were not for me.

Your friends should be your friend regardless of what martial art you train. Pick your school based on how it meets your needs, not on how you want to appear to the students/teacher.

People ask "How do I say, Sensei, I think we are going in the wrong direction.". I tell them to just say "Sensei, I think we are going in the wrong direction." Respect is communicating your desires and needs to make them a better teacher, not keeping your mouth shut and going though the motions.

When I left my aikido school, I'm sure it offended the instructor. Anytime you have that much of you into something and have someone tell you it's not for them it has to offend them. However, the man was my friend and after a period of time we still hang out, watch the UFC, and talk about martial arts.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-18-2010, 01:34 PM   #65
"Annoyed-completely"
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Re: Japanezsing

Epilogue: Aikido was grand at the start. I expanded my social life, experienced something out of the ordinary. It was fun. Then came an anomaly that made me uncomfortable. The dojo started Japanezsing, taking the idea of infusing a Japanese theme way all too far- for my tastes and rational thinking. To the degree that fantasy over took reality. For any well balanced reasonable person, it the change in venue testing comon tolerance and rational standards. It was weird and silly, what the dojo was turning into.

With that re-cap. After a discussion with a person or two in the dojo, I have come to find out that the Founder was over the top as well for a Japanese. Eccentric as it was put to me. Upon hearing such news, I was put off by it even more by the dojo change. In the attempt to ease my concerns, the conversation continued become more revealing and uncomfortable. It was stated to me the school was following in harmony with the Founder. The sensei's goal was to fuse the true spirit of Aikido with the dojo. The method to achieve his aspirations was to embracing itself into the Cosmos being in harmony with all things, and something about everyone loving each other. In order to obtain the goal, I was told the dojo needs to apply every aspect of the Founder, especially his unique views and where he was coming from.

As I sat there listening to all this, I was told every so carefully, Aikido's core, it's purpose, is this self-designed spirituality and outlook that develop the brick and mortar of Aikido. Understanding Aikido in this way, then understanding the new changes needed in the dojo to be a real Aikido dojo. I also got the sense that I wouldn't or couldn't progress in Aikido more or really understand it, if this path is not cultivated like pulling weeds from a garden.

I don't know what my sensei drank that turned him from sensible to weird over night. It could be true, I don't argue it, his aligning himself with the spiritual way of Aikido. Something I called Japanzsing.

As a result I decided Aikido it isn't for me. I am going on to something more grounded and sensible like Rugby.

The experience I had and friends I made, where great at the dojo. I don't see many options other then stopping Aikido all together. Moving on to another dojo or style now knowing what I know, will under carry any Aikido class. I don't want to adjust to another dojo and new people, and all the other crap that a person experiences. My Aikido friends are still friends, we can find different venues to do our socializing. Unless they too drink the Japanezed Kool Aid. All is good now.
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Old 10-18-2010, 02:03 PM   #66
RED
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Re: Japanezsing

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Epilogue: Aikido was grand at the start. I expanded my social life, experienced something out of the ordinary. It was fun. Then came an anomaly that made me uncomfortable. The dojo started Japanezsing, taking the idea of infusing a Japanese theme way all too far- for my tastes and rational thinking. To the degree that fantasy over took reality. For any well balanced reasonable person, it the change in venue testing comon tolerance and rational standards. It was weird and silly, what the dojo was turning into.

With that re-cap. After a discussion with a person or two in the dojo, I have come to find out that the Founder was over the top as well for a Japanese. Eccentric as it was put to me. Upon hearing such news, I was put off by it even more by the dojo change. In the attempt to ease my concerns, the conversation continued become more revealing and uncomfortable. It was stated to me the school was following in harmony with the Founder. The sensei's goal was to fuse the true spirit of Aikido with the dojo. The method to achieve his aspirations was to embracing itself into the Cosmos being in harmony with all things, and something about everyone loving each other. In order to obtain the goal, I was told the dojo needs to apply every aspect of the Founder, especially his unique views and where he was coming from.

As I sat there listening to all this, I was told every so carefully, Aikido's core, it's purpose, is this self-designed spirituality and outlook that develop the brick and mortar of Aikido. Understanding Aikido in this way, then understanding the new changes needed in the dojo to be a real Aikido dojo. I also got the sense that I wouldn't or couldn't progress in Aikido more or really understand it, if this path is not cultivated like pulling weeds from a garden.

I don't know what my sensei drank that turned him from sensible to weird over night. It could be true, I don't argue it, his aligning himself with the spiritual way of Aikido. Something I called Japanzsing.

As a result I decided Aikido it isn't for me. I am going on to something more grounded and sensible like Rugby.

The experience I had and friends I made, where great at the dojo. I don't see many options other then stopping Aikido all together. Moving on to another dojo or style now knowing what I know, will under carry any Aikido class. I don't want to adjust to another dojo and new people, and all the other crap that a person experiences. My Aikido friends are still friends, we can find different venues to do our socializing. Unless they too drink the Japanezed Kool Aid. All is good now.
Sounds like your new Rugby coach might have a better nikkyo than your old sensei.

MM
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Old 10-18-2010, 02:19 PM   #67
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Japanezsing

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
As a result I decided Aikido it isn't for me. I am going on to something more grounded and sensible like Rugby.
That sounds very reasonable.

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Old 10-18-2010, 02:20 PM   #68
Conrad Gus
 
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Re: Japanezsing

It's too bad that your first (and only) dojo turned out to be "weird" and turned you off. There are lots of "non-weird" dojos out there as well.

Having said that, it sounds like you're done with aikido for now, so good luck with all future endeavors. I hear rugby is really fun.

There's a neat clip in the "Samurai Spirit" series of a kobudo teacher trying to show a rugby team how to apply martial arts to rugby (check it out).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XasE9DbHC_Y

I love this show!
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Old 10-18-2010, 05:59 PM   #69
ninjaqutie
 
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Re: Japanezsing

Best of luck in your future endeavors. It is a shame that you were contemplating not leaving your current dojo because "you had things gel" for you, but now you are leaving aikido all together. Sad really....

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 10-18-2010, 07:49 PM   #70
Marc Abrams
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Re: Japanezsing

Well there goes the baby with the bath water!

Did you ever stop and think that your position of not being able to study Aikido again at another dojo is as rigid and (sorry to say) wacky as the place you are leaving? It would be like leaving rugby all together because you did not like the quality of the rugby songs sung at the bar after many of beers by that particular club.

I hope your next training experience in whatever goes smoother for you.

Marc Abrams
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Old 10-18-2010, 09:56 PM   #71
RED
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Re: Japanezsing

I'm sincerely doubting that the OP is even a real person with an issue. It is in the anonymous board. It is likely to be a youngster looking for attention, as it could easily be a troll just f-ing with everyone out of boredom.
For all we know this thread might be linked to Bullshido right now with fifty 13 year old boys thumping their chests over it from their nana's basement.

Last edited by RED : 10-18-2010 at 09:59 PM.

MM
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Old 10-18-2010, 10:42 PM   #72
WilliB
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Re: Japanezsing

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I'm sincerely doubting that the OP is even a real person with an issue. It is in the anonymous board. It is likely to be a youngster looking for attention, as it could easily be a troll just f-ing with everyone out of boredom.
For all we know this thread might be linked to Bullshido right now with fifty 13 year old boys thumping their chests over it from their nana's basement.
Too elaborate writing style for a youngster, I say.
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Old 10-18-2010, 10:50 PM   #73
RED
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Re: Japanezsing

Quote:
Willi Brix wrote: View Post
Too elaborate writing style for a youngster, I say.
lol fine, then a troll.
There response just seems to irrational to be a real person's issue.

MM
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Old 10-18-2010, 11:00 PM   #74
"Annoyed- no more"
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Anonymous User
Re: Japanezsing

I decided to stop. First impressions and bad experiences stay with a person (I think, therefore I am) and have a lasting impact. Maybe, I got too comfortable here with my reasons why I am leaving. I am leaving Aikido all together. I think it is for the best. I can't do something that I don't understand, that would be the Founder's spiritual side. I agree you have to believe it to be true to progress and stick with Aikido, if you really want it. My dojo made its own kool aid; I think they follow blindly. Ignorantly, mimicking something they aren't. Losing themselves in a fantasy world facilitated by the spiritual core of Aikido.

Why should I continue to stay, if I don't want to be part of that line of thinking? If I do find another dojo with the least bit of deference to spiritual core in Aikido, I will become very cynical and end up leaving on worse terms then now. I now have a history.

I am not an existentialist, into metaphysics, or spiritual realms of thought. I am not even sure I used those terms right. Aikido and how it defines the world of spirituality and life isn't for me. I love doing Aikido at one time, but the whole experience is best summed up by saying, my experience was a Flowers For Algenron experience. I am returning to Rugby.

I thank everyone for their concern.
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Old 10-18-2010, 11:13 PM   #75
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
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Re: Japanezsing

"Spiritual core of aikido"? What your teacher is doing has nothing to do with the spiritual side of aikido.
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