Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Oh, I thought that the Iwama way was as a preservation society.

Robert M Watson Jr wrote: My point was change and continuous research into the art is the Iwama way as I see it. That is why there are so many ways of doing things ... each has a context in which it works, or doesn't. Of course, I could be mistaken

This is also my understanding, besides som mysterious I.S version that I have´nt encountered I dont think that it is possible to pin a person to the ground using just an arm (or even arm+knee on ribcage) unless there is a big difference in size or strength.

L.Camejo wrote: From my understanding however, our pins were designed to hold the attacker in position long enough to end the conflict using a strike or a weapon, not to hold them indefinitely as if in a Judo match.

Peter Gröndahl wrote: Oh, I thought that the Iwama way was as a preservation society. This is also my understanding, besides som mysterious I.S version that I have´nt encountered I dont think that it is possible to pin a person to the ground using just an arm (or even arm+knee on ribcage) unless there is a big difference in size or strength.

I knew I was putting my foot dangerously close to my mouth ... Let's call "Robs interpretation of Iwama". No doubt M. Saito tasked himself to faithfully preserve the art taught by the founder but just how many can rightly take on that mantle in all seriousness? Thread drift can lead to dark and gloomy places.

The only pin for shihonage I was even taught in the Iwama line fit into the description you mentioned and I seriously doubt most any pin would last very long except for some of those pretzel pins as seen in some branches or Daito ryu, human origami is what Ellis Amdur described it (I think). As far as martial relevance the pretzel takes way too long and who has time to sit there and hold someone down with a marginally effective pin whilst their comrades repeatedly poke with pointy objects?

All in all I think it is a great study to figure out just what exactly is it that one is supposed to learn from the pinning configurations.

I now know what this is. did't get a look at the link but asked my sensei and it is as I thought. It is the same pin we use for our version of ude-garami, pretty nasty.

Larry Camejo wrote: From my understanding however, our pins were designed to hold the attacker in position long enough to end the conflict using a strike or a weapon, not to hold them indefinitely as if in a Judo match. Aikido pins offer the mobility to quickly finish or disengage if needed to deal with other potential multiple threats, they are not the same as ne waza pins where one sacrifices ones footing and standing mobility to maintain positional dominance imho. Keeping ones vertical balance is a key principle of Aikido imho.

Probably should have ended the thread.

Any determined opponent can escape from the shiho nage "pin."
I wouldn't worry about total immobilization. All you have to do is hold them there long enough to take their weapon, or cut their throat, or both.

The face down pins, while somewhat more stable, are much harder to get, but they are the only effective way to ensure your opponent doesn't use a weapon in his off hand to kill, or at least, surprise you.

Kesa gatame can't do that. Side control can't do that. Mount can't do that. Neither can most versions of rear mount.

Hmm?