Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-06-2010, 09:32 AM   #26
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,078
Spain
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
But I don't see the point in enforcing bowing and/or clapping that some guy defend arguing that these practices are one with Aikido.
These practises are Aikido, and you are a saracen.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2010, 03:16 PM   #27
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,059
United_States
Online
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote: View Post
Done. Dusted.
I guess "dusted" is also supposed to mean something to me. I can think of a few possibilities, but I don't much like the only ones that would fit.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2010, 04:27 PM   #28
Dazzler
Dojo: Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 647
England
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I guess "dusted" is also supposed to mean something to me. I can think of a few possibilities, but I don't much like the only ones that would fit.
Well, they say we are divided by a common language.

I assure you its nothing bad.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2010, 07:14 PM   #29
Lan Powers
Dojo: Aikido of Midland, Midland TX
Location: Midland Tx
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 660
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Always been a personal point for me..... everyone claps at several dojos I have visited, no-one claps at ours, should I "conform", or do I allow the act to be invested with more meaning than some others give it?
It has been explained as the "calling of the Kami"
It has been explained as "gathering everyones attention"
I just sit quietly as it happens (or not) and nobody has ever had issue with me not participating.

Just one approach to the question

If you are respectful of others, and their beliefs, then it all works out ok as a rule.
Just my 2-cents

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2010, 07:27 PM   #30
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Alejandro, it's really a matter of whether there's a Shinto shrine in the room. The clapping is done toward the shrine, where there would be a mirror and other Shinto implements. And in serious Shinto, the person who maintains the shrine would maintain it for a kami--a Shinto deity that would bless, protect and inspire the place and all the people in it. That's why it's called a "kamiza," meaning "seat of the god."
"Kamiza" - 上座, merely means "upper seat, seat of honor", and is purely a convention of etiquette, with no inherent religious meaning.

What you are thinking of is "kamidana" - 神棚, a miniture shrine.

There is a word that means "seat of the god" - 神座, but this is read "shinza", and refers NOT to miniture Shinto shrines in dojo and other places, but rather to the actual place where the kami is held to reside in full size Shinto shrines (jinja).

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2010, 01:32 AM   #31
Chris Farnham
Dojo: Aikido of Champlain Valley/Hamamatsu Aikidokai/Aikido Shidokai
Location: Hamamatsu, Japan
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 97
United_States
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

The Aikikai dojos where I have seen bowing have all had some connection to Iwama. I am not sure if this is something that O Sensei added when he founded that dojo or whether he always did it and Hombu took the clapping out. Clapping at Iwama may have been done there because of its proximity to the shrine. It seems that people with Iwama lineage do it and people with hombu do not. What do Yoshinkan,Yoseikan, Tomiki, and Ki Society folks do?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2010, 05:26 AM   #32
mrlizard123
Dojo: Templegate Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 129
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

I thought it was because we're happy and we know it...

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2010, 10:06 AM   #33
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
United_States
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
"Kamiza" - 上座, merely means "upper seat, seat of honor", and is purely a convention of etiquette, with no inherent religious meaning.
Thanks, Joshua.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2010, 11:16 AM   #34
niall
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
niall's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 394
Japan
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Of course Joshua is right for a normal room but you're right too, David. I've heard that explanation for dojos more than once. I just found this link to a Daito Ryu page in Japanese that says the same thing: kamiza can be written 上座 upper seat or 神座 seat of the god or gods (and this article uses the 神座 form).

http://www.daitouryu.com/japanese/co...l_bumon04.html

Last edited by niall : 10-07-2010 at 11:27 AM.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


aikiweb blog|wordpress blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2010, 04:11 PM   #35
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
United_States
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
kamiza can be written 上座 upper seat or 神座 seat of the god or gods...[/url]
Interesting, Niall. Thanks to you, too.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2010, 04:29 AM   #36
Dazzler
Dojo: Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 647
England
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
I thought it was because we're happy and we know it...
...whooosh.....
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2010, 08:21 PM   #37
odudog
Dojo: Dale City Aikikai
Location: VA
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 390
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Rey, why didn't you just ask Sakamoto Sensei to Takeguchi Sensei? I'm sure Darrell or Donna could have gotten the answer for you from them.

You could also ping me. Paul and Stella have my email address.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2010, 12:01 AM   #38
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 909
United_States
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

...when in Rome.

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2010, 02:01 AM   #39
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
...when in Rome.
How simplistic...
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2010, 02:32 AM   #40
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

How gratuitous....
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2010, 02:45 AM   #41
niall
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
niall's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 394
Japan
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

I forgot that Masando Sasaki Sensei did the Shinto bows and clapping at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo when he used to teach there on Saturdays. He was a Shinto priest.

Last edited by niall : 10-09-2010 at 02:50 AM.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


aikiweb blog|wordpress blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2010, 11:35 AM   #42
guest1234567
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 428
Spain
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Hi,
In our dojo we bow as a sign of respect to O'Sensei and our sensei, but we don't clapp.
As David wrote it is a practice in the shinto religion
You can see Hikitsuchi Michio Sensei in the Norito pray http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D__Y8-d_1b0 clapping.
The Bujinkan also use to clapp as greeting and sign of respect.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2010, 06:47 PM   #43
Lyle Laizure
 
Lyle Laizure's Avatar
Dojo: Hinode Dojo LLC
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 563
United_States
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
I thought it was because we're happy and we know it...
LOL love this

Lyle Laizure
www.hinodedojo.com
Deru kugi wa uta reru
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2010, 06:53 PM   #44
Lyle Laizure
 
Lyle Laizure's Avatar
Dojo: Hinode Dojo LLC
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 563
United_States
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

The bowing and clapping can represent several things, as pointed out in previous posts. I think it is important to understand why you are if it is in your home dojo. (Best to ask your sensei.) Knowing why you bow and or clap is more important. The Japanese language can be so doggone confusing for the multiple ways kanji can be interpreted. Good luck.

Lyle Laizure
www.hinodedojo.com
Deru kugi wa uta reru
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2010, 07:19 PM   #45
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 909
United_States
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
How simplistic...
It's best not to complicate what is simple, or simplify what is complicated.
Pick your battles, and keep your hands clean.

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2010, 03:50 AM   #46
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
It's best not to complicate what is simple, or simplify what is complicated.
Pick your battles, and keep your hands clean.
So your strong Christian beliefs allow you to call for the Shinto kamis to come sit and watch the class. It's ok for me, but maybe not so for your Church. It's not just a matter of "when in Rome".
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2010, 06:19 AM   #47
oisin bourke
 
oisin bourke's Avatar
Dojo: Muden Juku, Ireland
Location: Kilkenny
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 333
Ireland
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
I forgot that Masando Sasaki Sensei did the Shinto bows and clapping at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo when he used to teach there on Saturdays. He was a Shinto priest.
Did Sasaki Sensei (or anyone else) ever talk about the hand positions during clapping as per the Hikitsuchi video clip? Any other comments about hand positions welcome!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2010, 08:47 AM   #48
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,078
Spain
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
So your strong Christian beliefs allow you to call for the Shinto kamis to come sit and watch the class.
If they only watch and don't participate I don't see the problem. However, if Futsunushi no kami asks for some wrist grabbing...
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2010, 09:39 AM   #49
niall
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
niall's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 394
Japan
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Sorry Oisin, I don't remember any explanations about hands. Also the Manseikan dojos in Kyushu did the Shinto bow with clapping I remember.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


aikiweb blog|wordpress blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2010, 01:48 PM   #50
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 909
United_States
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
So your strong Christian beliefs allow you to call for the Shinto kamis to come sit and watch the class. It's ok for me, but maybe not so for your Church. It's not just a matter of "when in Rome".
Man your blood pressure must be out the window
Always freakin' out about stuff that doesn't matter, and doesn't have actual impact upon your life.

MM
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 18 Peter Goldsbury Columns 187 09-08-2011 03:41 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 12 Peter Goldsbury Columns 32 05-16-2009 07:05 PM
Bowing to Kamidana/Kamiza Don Spiritual 106 08-12-2007 11:35 AM
My answer to a very good question: Charlie General 1 08-02-2005 08:10 AM
Article: Thoughts on Bugei Studies by Karl Friday AikiWeb System Training 28 04-27-2002 06:21 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:17 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate