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Old 10-03-2010, 12:57 AM   #1
Christopher Creutzig
Location: Paderborn
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Grammar question: toru -> tori

This is probably a simple question for the large group of people with better Japanese than me, but I just can't figure it out: The 取り (tori) in 片手取り (katate tori) etc. comes from 取る (toru; grab, catch), right? Is this a verb form my books fail to mention or an abbreviation?

I did notice that there are quite a few compounds such as 取り上げる (toriageru; to pick up) that also use 取り seemingly from 取る -- is this the same usage pattern?
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Old 10-03-2010, 01:13 AM   #2
WilliB
Dojo: Minato Aikikai
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Re: Grammar question: toru -> tori

Quote:
Christopher Creutzig wrote: View Post
This is probably a simple question for the large group of people with better Japanese than me, but I just can't figure it out: The 取り (tori) in 片手取り (katate tori) etc. comes from 取る (toru; grab, catch), right? Is this a verb form my books fail to mention or an abbreviation?
I only picked up Japanese from my surroundings, so I can´t give a proper grammar explanation, basically yes, this is the same word. If you use the "i" form, the verb sort of becomes a noun.
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Old 10-03-2010, 01:41 AM   #3
Christopher Creutzig
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Re: Grammar question: toru -> tori

Quote:
Willi Brix wrote: View Post
If you use the "i" form, the verb sort of becomes a noun.
Which probably shows what a poor way of learning a language books are. They only tell me to create nouns from verbs by using the -te form.
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Old 10-03-2010, 06:06 AM   #4
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Grammar question: toru -> tori

Quote:
Christopher Creutzig wrote:
This is probably a simple question for the large group of people with better Japanese than me, but I just can't figure it out: The 取り (tori) in 片手取り (katate tori) etc. comes from 取る (toru; grab, catch), right? Is this a verb form my books fail to mention or an abbreviation?

I did notice that there are quite a few compounds such as 取り上げる (toriageru; to pick up) that also use 取り seemingly from 取る -- is this the same usage pattern?
"Tori" is what's known as a stem form. What are known as "godan doushi" (five-level verbs) form their stem by turning their final "-u" into an "i". Other verbs, for example, "taberu" (stem = tabe-) or "miru" (stem = mi-) don't do this. Some verbs can form nouns from their stem forms. "Toru" is one of them. Not all verbs can do this.

Words such as "toriageru" are compounds -- in compounds the second verb is attached to the stem of the first. This words are essentially similar to what we call phrasal verbs in English -- "pick up", "eat out", "run away", "turn on".

So while "tori" can be used in some contexts as a noun, it's not quite the same process as when it's used in a compound. As another English example, the word "meeting" in the sentences has the same form, even though the parts of speech are quite different.

"I have a 10:00 meeting."
"It was nice meeting you."

Quote:
Christopher Creutzig wrote: View Post
Which probably shows what a poor way of learning a language books are. They only tell me to create nouns from verbs by using the -te form.
I don't believe they are telling you that. The "-te" form is a conjuctive form that links the verb to the next verb or phrase. It does not form nouns. The difference between the "-te" form and the above compound form can be seen below:

toriageru - to pick up
totte ageru - to take and raise/lift (also an idiom for "to take for someone")

There are two ways to make nouns from verbs in Japanese:

1. Use the stem. This doesn't work with all verbs. With the verbs it does work on it can create either a gerund-like form, or a complete separate noun related to the verb, or both. Tori is an example of both; it can refer to either a hold (thus katate-dori), or the person doing the holding.
2. Add "koto" or "no" to the dictionary form to create a gerund-like noun. For example, I cannot simply use the stem of "taberu" (tabe-) to mean "(the act of ) eating". So if I want to say, "I like eating", I have to say, "Taberu koto ga suki" or "Taberu no ga suki."

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 10-03-2010, 09:57 AM   #5
Christopher Creutzig
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Re: Grammar question: toru -> tori

Thanks Josh. I was actually aware of tori being the -masu stem of toru, but the books I checked did not mention that this stem could be used for nominalizing. (The primary reference I checked being Chino's “Japanese Verbs at a Glance.”)

I guess my confusion with the -te form comes from the numerous examples like -te kudasai, -te aru, -te mo ii, -te oku, etc., where it is used very much like a gerund.
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Old 10-03-2010, 06:39 PM   #6
odudog
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Re: Grammar question: toru -> tori

Without going through all the textbook definitions, just think of it as being the short cut of the formal version. Torimasu = tori

Just like in English: what's up = sup
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Old 10-03-2010, 10:36 PM   #7
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Grammar question: toru -> tori

Quote:
Christopher Creutzig wrote: View Post
Thanks Josh. I was actually aware of tori being the -masu stem of toru, but the books I checked did not mention that this stem could be used for nominalizing. (The primary reference I checked being Chino's "Japanese Verbs at a Glance.")

I guess my confusion with the -te form comes from the numerous examples like -te kudasai, -te aru, -te mo ii, -te oku, etc., where it is used very much like a gerund.
Ah, I see what you mean. The difference, I think, is between looking at the language as itself, versus decoding it into one's own language.

When I think "noun" with regards to Japanese, I think of a term that takes "da/desu", is put in the past aspect with "datta/deshita", and is negated by "ja/de wa nai". So, in that case, the "-te" form is not a noun (or in Japanese, "meishi"). On the other hand, words such as "kirei" (beautiful) and "onaji" (same) are nouns in Japan, even though the English translation marks them as adjectives.

Now, if one attempts to directly decode, say, "totte kudasai", you can get something like "give me taking" = "take (this)", and then you can refer to the "taking" as a gerund. But this is not how the Japanese look at it. As the "-te" form is conjunctive, it is connected to the next phrase. "Kudasai" is the imperative form of "kudasaru" -- literally meaning to send down, to give, to the speaker (or speaker's proxy). So the speaker is asking the listener to "take", and then adding the further modification of "kudasai" indicating in what manner the taking should be done. The same with "-te oku", "-te shimau", "-te mo ii". These phrases have developed idiomatic meanings which might have to be translated into the English gerund, but are really no different within the language from sentences such as "Kinou wa suupaa ni itte, sushi wo katta."

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 10-04-2010, 12:08 PM   #8
Christopher Creutzig
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Re: Grammar question: toru -> tori

Josh, I think I understand what you mean. I'm glad I can look at English without decoding it into German. Getting there for a completely different language will probably take a bit more time.
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