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Old 10-02-2010, 11:19 AM   #1
Gorgeous George
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Prejudice/Oppression

Is prejudice against, and oppression of, others ever justified?
What about if you claim divine warrant? Would you accept status as a second-class citizen - if those beating and/or (sexually) abusing you held a 'holy' book in their hand?

Are ancient beliefs, borne of ignorance of the nature of the world/universe, a barrier to social progress and justice? If so, what place - if any - do they have in the civilised world? Should they be cast off like a snake casts off a skin - as something that has served its purpose, and has been outgrown?

Are these beliefs (apart from the ones about making the earth in seven days; the earth being the centre of the universe; and so on, which have been disproven beyond dispute) immutable - being set down by an entity who is perfect, never wrong, and outside of time?

I trust that this does not fall foul of the rules, and that we can have a calm, rational discussion about this.

With love

- Graham
 
Old 10-02-2010, 12:06 PM   #2
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Prejudice/Oppression

Does it make sense to pretend loaded rhetorical questions are sincere conversation starters?

I trust that you know exactly what you are doing and I'm not sure "love" has anything to do with it.
 
Old 10-02-2010, 12:17 PM   #3
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Re: Prejudice/Oppression

Quote:
Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
Does it make sense to pretend loaded rhetorical questions are sincere conversation starters?

I trust that you know exactly what you are doing and I'm not sure "love" has anything to do with it.
LOL, I can see where this is going. We must name Lord Voldemort, so shortly the thread will be ended.

Personally, I think that all modern countries, if they want to survive, should adopt Article 18(2) of Azerbaijdan constitution... google it.
 
Old 10-02-2010, 12:40 PM   #4
Gorgeous George
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Re: Prejudice/Oppression

Quote:
Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
Does it make sense to pretend loaded rhetorical questions are sincere conversation starters?

I trust that you know exactly what you are doing and I'm not sure "love" has anything to do with it.
I guess it can do; i'd have to see the questions before making a judgment on that, though.

Of course you cannot judge my motives: you don't know me. I can tell you though, with all sincerity, that I love mankind.

@ Willi: Hahahaha. That's brilliant! I can't believe Azerbaijan has such a law - and supposedly progressive states such as the UK are seeing the inverse.

I think the thread can survive: it's lasted this long...
 
Old 10-02-2010, 12:51 PM   #5
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Re: Prejudice/Oppression

Quote:
Willi Brix wrote: View Post
LOL, I can see where this is going. We must name Lord Voldemort, so shortly the thread will be ended.

Personally, I think that all modern countries, if they want to survive, should adopt Article 18(2) of Azerbaijdan constitution... google it.
Here we have a state constitutional provision that the budget must be done on time. Only 93 days late this year. It would be nice if folks would also follow the laws ... especially the govt.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
 
Old 10-02-2010, 02:32 PM   #6
Marc Abrams
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Re: Prejudice/Oppression

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
Is prejudice against, and oppression of, others ever justified?
What about if you claim divine warrant? Would you accept status as a second-class citizen - if those beating and/or (sexually) abusing you held a 'holy' book in their hand?

Are ancient beliefs, borne of ignorance of the nature of the world/universe, a barrier to social progress and justice? If so, what place - if any - do they have in the civilised world? Should they be cast off like a snake casts off a skin - as something that has served its purpose, and has been outgrown?

Are these beliefs (apart from the ones about making the earth in seven days; the earth being the centre of the universe; and so on, which have been disproven beyond dispute) immutable - being set down by an entity who is perfect, never wrong, and outside of time?

I trust that this does not fall foul of the rules, and that we can have a calm, rational discussion about this.

With love

- Graham
Graham:

It seems that your view of religion is as prejudiced as the views of some religious people. History is filled with countless examples of religious people who have clearly represented the highest ideals of morality that are represented in the holy books of major religions. We rarely live up to ideals regardless of the source of the ideals. Instead of a blanket condemnation of major religions, maybe you should ask that they actually adhere to the moral ideals that they claim to represent. Your attempts to hide your obvious distaste for major religions while trying to condemn them through thinly-veiled comments will not change anything.

Marc Abrams
 
Old 10-02-2010, 03:19 PM   #7
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Re: Prejudice/Oppression

I must admit I am forced to agree. The original post was full of loaded questions, which, given the 2010-Western-World context and the later blanket comment concerning the UK government, is clearly aimed at one of the major religions in particular. Quite unduly, I should add.

"Never escalate a battle unless forced to do so by your enemy" - Zordon
 
Old 10-02-2010, 04:07 PM   #8
Gorgeous George
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Re: Prejudice/Oppression

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Graham:

It seems that your view of religion is as prejudiced as the views of some religious people. History is filled with countless examples of religious people who have clearly represented the highest ideals of morality that are represented in the holy books of major religions. We rarely live up to ideals regardless of the source of the ideals. Instead of a blanket condemnation of major religions, maybe you should ask that they actually adhere to the moral ideals that they claim to represent. Your attempts to hide your obvious distaste for major religions while trying to condemn them through thinly-veiled comments will not change anything.

Marc Abrams
I don't think that you understand what I said, and your belief that I am prejudiced is thus an incorrect one.
I do not hold the view that having religious views, and adhering to them, uniformly leads to terrible things - that is not my position at all - I love Socrates, Plato, Plotinus, and Spinoza (to name a few), and what they did.

In brief: you said 'maybe you should ask that they actually adhere to the moral ideals that they claim to represent' - when this is entirely beside the point I made.

The point is, if your frame of reference for ethics is an appeal to authority, and this authority is not only antiquated, but beyond dispute or alteration, then social progress is hindered (to put it mildly - are you familiar with the Enlightenment?), and people don't respect one another - they only respect punishment and reward, which is the motive for 'good' behaviour.

So it is utterly, utterly irrelevant whether people have lived up to ideals that will supposedly get them a reward - hence, I do not want these people to embody the ideals they claim to represent, because the belief that there is an absolute good is a poor one, and leads, inevitably, time after time, to much heated dispute (mildly put).
I'd rather people think, and do the right thing for its own sake - which I think is part of human liberation, not to mention animal liberation - I don't know if you care about either of them, but I do: very deeply.

@ David: you should clarify things before jumping to conclusions, because in this case, you've reached the wrong one.
 
Old 10-02-2010, 05:29 PM   #9
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Re: Prejudice/Oppression

Please explain your original intent, then.

I'm not trying to cause an argument, but your original post is exactly the kind of thing I hear all the time from people who just want to bash Islam and make up aspects of the religion to bolster their case. As I see you're also from the UK, it also doesn't occur to me that perhaps there's a cultural difference and I've misunderstood your words; I hear those kinds of statements all the time from people here [in the UK] and it never ends well. It also doesn't help when you feel the need to put forth your worry that the subject matter might fall foul of forum posting rules.

I'm all for a good discussion on religion (I'm quite happily atheistic and I think I may agree with you on many matters regarding religion), but your opening statements did not lend themselves to supporting the calm, rational discussion you end up stating that you would like to take place.

Last edited by David Maidment : 10-02-2010 at 05:32 PM.

"Never escalate a battle unless forced to do so by your enemy" - Zordon
 
Old 10-02-2010, 06:14 PM   #10
Marc Abrams
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Re: Prejudice/Oppression

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
I don't think that you understand what I said, and your belief that I am prejudiced is thus an incorrect one.
I do not hold the view that having religious views, and adhering to them, uniformly leads to terrible things - that is not my position at all - I love Socrates, Plato, Plotinus, and Spinoza (to name a few), and what they did.

In brief: you said 'maybe you should ask that they actually adhere to the moral ideals that they claim to represent' - when this is entirely beside the point I made.

The point is, if your frame of reference for ethics is an appeal to authority, and this authority is not only antiquated, but beyond dispute or alteration, then social progress is hindered (to put it mildly - are you familiar with the Enlightenment?), and people don't respect one another - they only respect punishment and reward, which is the motive for 'good' behaviour.

So it is utterly, utterly irrelevant whether people have lived up to ideals that will supposedly get them a reward - hence, I do not want these people to embody the ideals they claim to represent, because the belief that there is an absolute good is a poor one, and leads, inevitably, time after time, to much heated dispute (mildly put).
I'd rather people think, and do the right thing for its own sake - which I think is part of human liberation, not to mention animal liberation - I don't know if you care about either of them, but I do: very deeply.

@ David: you should clarify things before jumping to conclusions, because in this case, you've reached the wrong one.
Graham:

Your interpretation of what you think that I said is very far off base. I guess I must be a dullard who has never experienced enlightenment. Maybe it's just me and a bunch of other people on this board who thought that you made derogatory remarks about major religions (one in particular). I guess that I will just leave you to your human and animal liberation as a means of bettering this world.......

Marc Abrams
 
Old 10-02-2010, 06:28 PM   #11
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Re: Prejudice/Oppression

I lost a bet.... I was sure Jun would of closed this thread by now. Didn't go the direction I was expecting then.

MM
 
Old 10-02-2010, 09:24 PM   #12
Gorgeous George
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Re: Prejudice/Oppression

Quote:
David Maidment wrote: View Post
Please explain your original intent, then.

I'm not trying to cause an argument, but your original post is exactly the kind of thing I hear all the time from people who just want to bash Islam and make up aspects of the religion to bolster their case. As I see you're also from the UK, it also doesn't occur to me that perhaps there's a cultural difference and I've misunderstood your words; I hear those kinds of statements all the time from people here [in the UK] and it never ends well. It also doesn't help when you feel the need to put forth your worry that the subject matter might fall foul of forum posting rules.

I'm all for a good discussion on religion (I'm quite happily atheistic and I think I may agree with you on many matters regarding religion), but your opening statements did not lend themselves to supporting the calm, rational discussion you end up stating that you would like to take place.
My intent was to have a rational, unemotive, discussion of whether it is just - fair, righteous, humane, etc. - to allow regressive beliefs and behaviour to be cultivated on the proviso that they are invoked by a 'god'.

It's quite alright, David: I understand that negative experience leads to knee-jerk reactions when a similar situation arises, and that people tend to be 'all the same'.
I know that there are people in this country who are uneasy at the influence of a new religion, just as we were doing away with the old one; people get upset, and when they get upset, they perhaps display poor judgment, or behaviour; I hope that I have demonstrated that I am not one of these people: my objections are very calmly considered, and not the result of prejudice, hatred, racism, etc.
They are also not limited to islam.

I didn't express worry about falling foul of the rules: I said that I trust that it does not. In a previous thread, I was rebuked by the administrator due to a verbal dispute - an equivocation, truth be told - and so I was sure to accommodate.

Of course, when reading what somebody else has written, we ourselves have to adopt a tone, rather than knowing that of the writer; but I can assure you, brother, that I was very calm, and rartional when I wrote that (and I think that what I said was a quite precise and incisive overview of critical questions in this area).
People do tend to get emotional about such issues - but I am not one of them: I think that doing so leads to many misunderstandings and tragedies, and takes us off-topic.

I hope that clarifies things.

Sincerely

- Graham
 
Old 10-02-2010, 09:31 PM   #13
Gorgeous George
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Re: Prejudice/Oppression

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Graham:

Your interpretation of what you think that I said is very far off base. I guess I must be a dullard who has never experienced enlightenment. Maybe it's just me and a bunch of other people on this board who thought that you made derogatory remarks about major religions (one in particular). I guess that I will just leave you to your human and animal liberation as a means of bettering this world.......

Marc Abrams
I'm willing to listen to your correction; if you want...?

I don't see how the fact that I 'made derogatory remarks about major religions (one in particular)' is inherently a bad/wrong thing, and thus discredits me, or what have you...
Is there some reason why a belief system should not be argued against?

All the best

- Graham
 
Old 10-02-2010, 10:27 PM   #14
WilliB
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Re: Prejudice/Oppression

I have said it already, but here again: What the modern world needs is a clear definition of what "religion" is. Our current idea of "religious freedom" allows totalitarian political ideologies to drive through this gaping whole in our constitutions like Schwarzenegger with his hummer -- as long as they can drape themselves with a "god".

Again, Azerbaidjan constitution article 18(2). If we continue close our eyes, the future will bring Sharia.
 
Old 10-02-2010, 11:07 PM   #15
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Prejudice/Oppression

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
I'm willing to listen to your correction; if you want...?

I don't see how the fact that I 'made derogatory remarks about major religions (one in particular)' is inherently a bad/wrong thing, and thus discredits me, or what have you...
Is there some reason why a belief system should not be argued against?

All the best

- Graham
To answer your question, there is something to be said with treating a belief system that millions of peole in the world hold as sacred with some respect - even if you disagree with certain beliefs/practices. In these cases it's not what you say, it's how you say it.

The larger problem I see across your posts referencing Islam is that I find no evidence in your comments that you have any real depth of knowledge about the religion - particularly it's intellectual history and diversity of pratice. You seem to treat Islam as a monolithic institution when it is every bit as varied in belief, practice, and custom as Christianity.

Lastly, I find that you tend to compare your ideals with the realities of others. By this I mean, you compare the best of the humanism with the worst of religion. You would do well to compare ideals with ideals and realities with realities. In this you might find the humanists and religious among us are not all that far apart, for better or worse.
 
Old 10-02-2010, 11:18 PM   #16
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Prejudice/Oppression

Quote:
Willi Brix wrote: View Post
I have said it already, but here again: What the modern world needs is a clear definition of what "religion" is. Our current idea of "religious freedom" allows totalitarian political ideologies to drive through this gaping whole in our constitutions like Schwarzenegger with his hummer -- as long as they can drape themselves with a "god".

Again, Azerbaidjan constitution article 18(2). If we continue close our eyes, the future will bring Sharia.
LOL! You are a funny man Willi. I just wish you were joking.

Weren't they saying the same thing 80 years ago about the Jews? I think we all know how that ended. Haven't we learned anything?
 
Old 10-03-2010, 01:30 AM   #17
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Re: Prejudice/Oppression

Quote:
Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
LOL! You are a funny man Willi. I just wish you were joking.

Weren't they saying the same thing 80 years ago about the Jews? I think we all know how that ended. Haven't we learned anything?
Alas, I am not joking, and what I said is NOT the same thing as they sad 80 years ago about the Jews.

However, what islamist preachers say about the Jews is roughly the same as what "they" said about the Jews 80 years ago. And so it is no coincidence that Jews once again are fleeing from European capitals. Havenīt we learned anything indeed.
 
Old 10-03-2010, 06:33 AM   #18
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Re: Prejudice/Oppression

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
My intent was to have a rational, unemotive, discussion of whether it is just - fair, righteous, humane, etc. - to allow regressive beliefs and behaviour to be cultivated on the proviso that they are invoked by a 'god'.
Put me down in the "loaded rhetorical questions" camp too. If that was sincerely not your intent, you might want to examine why you used the sort of leading questions that are also used as a tool by bigots with agendas, and how you can use language differently to distance yourself from those agendas if you don't share them. Merely offering a disclaimer doesn't do it, I'm afraid.
 
Old 10-03-2010, 06:36 AM   #19
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Re: Prejudice/Oppression

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However, what islamist preachers say about the Jews is roughly the same as what "they" said about the Jews 80 years ago.
"Islamist" != "muslim". Why do you persist in this slanderous and inflammatory mischaracterization?
 
Old 10-03-2010, 06:39 AM   #20
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Re: Prejudice/Oppression

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
"Islamist" != "muslim". Why do you persist in this slanderous and inflammatory mischaracterization?
Come again? Not all nominal muslims are islamists, but all islamists are muslim. By definition. So what is your issue?
 
Old 10-03-2010, 08:35 AM   #21
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Re: Prejudice/Oppression

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Willi Brix wrote: View Post
Again, Azerbaidjan constitution article 18(2). If we continue close our eyes, the future will bring Sharia.
Oh, so yes, you are really talking about Islam here. Shame on you.
 
Old 10-03-2010, 08:49 AM   #22
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Quote:
Willi Brix wrote: View Post
However, what islamist preachers say about the Jews is roughly the same as what "they" said about the Jews 80 years ago. And so it is no coincidence that Jews once again are fleeing from European capitals. Havenīt we learned anything indeed.
Islamism is as bad an -ism as secularism. Islamist and muslim is not the same. Do you know about Islam at all? Sincere question.
 
Old 10-03-2010, 09:28 AM   #23
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Re: Prejudice/Oppression

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Oh, so yes, you are really talking about Islam here. Shame on you.
Islam is the only religion that I know of that comes with a Shariah which would take us back to the life of the 14th century.

If there is another religion like this, it would also be covered by article 18(2).
 
Old 10-03-2010, 09:33 AM   #24
Amir Krause
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Re: Prejudice/Oppression

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
Is prejudice against, and oppression of, others ever justified?
What about if you claim divine warrant? Would you accept status as a second-class citizen - if those beating and/or (sexually) abusing you held a 'holy' book in their hand?

Are ancient beliefs, borne of ignorance of the nature of the world/universe, a barrier to social progress and justice? If so, what place - if any - do they have in the civilised world? Should they be cast off like a snake casts off a skin - as something that has served its purpose, and has been outgrown?

Are these beliefs (apart from the ones about making the earth in seven days; the earth being the centre of the universe; and so on, which have been disproven beyond dispute) immutable - being set down by an entity who is perfect, never wrong, and outside of time?

I trust that this does not fall foul of the rules, and that we can have a calm, rational discussion about this.

With love

- Graham
Can I guess you are opposed the the French decision to forbid wearing Burka in public places, in the name of Democracy, against the right of Muslim women to choose their own clothings?

Quote:
Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
LOL! You are a funny man Willi. I just wish you were joking.

Weren't they saying the same thing 80 years ago about the Jews? I think we all know how that ended. Haven't we learned anything?
Hate to burst your bubble, but there is no similarity. This statement mostly shows your ignorance. Not all discriminations are equal, nor are all of them illegitimate or invalid (e.g. all countries I know of "discriminate" most non-citizens and do not allow them to come, live and work in their jurisdiction).

As an Israeli Jew, who had grandparents living then and there, and who learnt a bit about that horrible era. I will try and explain, in the hope it will help you understand while such mentions throw all my fuses away.

There is a vast difference between these two hates, Judaism is the religion of few, and rejects conversions. Islam has significant expansionist sub groups (each much larger then all Jews, even pre-Holocaust) and in the past, had a strong conversion rate in the areas it occupied.

The Holocaust/Shoa was (thankfully) so far a unique occurrence in human history. At that time, significant portion of the Jews in the European west tried to assimilate into the local Cultures. The Jews were not a threat to anyone. There was no Jewish violence directed at others.
Further, the Nazis definition of a Jew included many whom even their parents did not consider themselves to be Jews (for this reason, the Israeli law allowing "Jews" to return uses the same definition, which does not follow the Jewish religion).
In the name of their ideology, the Nazis did not ban following Jewish religion, nor did they just restrict the right of Jews. They burned people alive, fired at families (said grandpa was thrown out of the family bunker in the Ghetto, into the escape tunnel, by a brother who was shot at by the German troupes, he lost all of his familly, from parents and brothers to his own wive and kid), Gassed people (said grandma survived Auschwitz, her family including an infant daughter did not).

Thus, do not compare the Holocaust/Shoa to other discriminations!

Still, it seems some people here forget Muslims are people just like you and your fellows. Some of them are smart, others are fools. Few of them tend to extremes, most do not. Most will follow the consensus surrounding them, just like most of us and you. Further, prejudice against any group is wrong, and is one of the ways least helpful to cope with the problems one may have with it.

Amir
 
Old 10-03-2010, 09:39 AM   #25
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Re: Prejudice/Oppression

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Willi Brix wrote: View Post
Islam is the only religion that I know of that comes with a Shariah which would take us back to the life of the 14th century.

If there is another religion like this, it would also be covered by article 18(2).
Oh, really? Do you know about Christianity? Ever read the Bible?
 

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