Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Spiritual

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-28-2010, 08:36 AM   #76
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United_States
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

To bow shows respect; to giggle, not so much.... So we should insist someone bow, in all seriousness, while we giggle at what that person holds holy?

David Henderson
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2010, 08:40 AM   #77
Lyle Laizure
 
Lyle Laizure's Avatar
Dojo: Hinode Dojo LLC
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 560
United_States
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

Quote:
Bjorn Saw wrote: View Post
Dear all,

I have a query that I'd be happy to hear your thoughts on. Recently I've had a lovely student come to the dojo to practice; very enthusiastic and keen, sincere and good natured. He is a Muslim and will not, because of his precepts and faith, bow to the ground either at the Kamiza or to another when we greet in the Japanese way(In our dojo when in seiza we bow all the way down to the mat to another when we finish the session as a thank you). He will nod a small bow in respect to another.
We have had great open talks about religion and spirituality and we really understand each other to a great part.

Would you allow his freedom to follow his creed and forgo the standard dojo bow and just get on with training or not? For me it's not just that simple. We speak about it and find that we discover more things as we look at the issue. Very interesting and not a quick solution. Of course I could easily overlook this one incident and just get on with training (which I might do) and not bother about his rules of conduct. But how far do we open up the Japanese tradition to allow a varied standard?
I have 30 students and as many as 15 nationalities and all faith groups. We have a great relationship and it's a wonderful dojo.
Now I like this guy, but since I like to view my Aikido to be part of a spiritual discipline (not that I impose it on students but if they are interested I will speak my mind) I like to speak with him about the dynamics of being a guest and conforming to the standard of the host. A self surrender to another way of being if you like. Most people find no trouble in doing this but because of certain rules of conduct we find ourselves in these situations.

But what has been the most joyful thing coming out of this query is our talks that leads deep into the reasons and meaning of religious and spiritual understanding.

There are also the more sterner applications of faith rules as not allowing men to train with women etc. How do we deal with that? Open a men's only class? A Muslim class? A Christian class?

What do you think?
So where do you draw the line? A different set of rules for this person for this reason and a different set of rules for this person for this reason. It is your house you must decide. Goo ni itte wa, goo ni shitagae. (Follow the rules of the village you are in.)

Lyle Laizure
www.hinodedojo.com
Deru kugi wa uta reru
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2010, 09:03 AM   #78
WilliB
Dojo: Minato Aikikai
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 144
Japan
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I'm afraid I must say that I had the same impression as Christopher. If using one's mighty google-fu to pick out differences in the beliefs and practices in the 1 billion followers of a religion, and then posting them and saying that you "got a giggle" out of it, is not ridicule, then I don't know what is.
Mary,
I simply went to the link that Christopher posted to illustrate the muslim "no bowing" rule.

I guess you did not, so I need to explain. Right after the the "no-bowing" rule, the same Sheikh also explained that there is a "no kissing" rule.

The giggling part comes when you google for muslim Arab leaders slobbering over each other. If you giggle or not, is up to you, but clearly this speaks to the relevance of Christophers link to the "no bowing" rule.

Clearer now?

Of course, the larger question is if the OP wants to go down the road to make his dojo islamically correct. If he wants to go down that road, where does he want to stop? Separate classes for females would be an obvious next demand. I say donīt go down that road, but that is just me...
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2010, 01:50 PM   #79
tarik
 
tarik's Avatar
Dojo: Iwae Dojo
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 516
United_States
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

Speaking as someone who was raised Muslim, this furor on both sides is just too damned funny.

At least it shows that people care [about something].

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2010, 12:28 AM   #80
torbjornsaw
 
torbjornsaw's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Alive London
Location: London
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 74
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

Thank you, I'd love to hear from more Muslim aikidoka's.

I will speak with my new friend again to see if we can come to an understanding. I love the word "understanding", to stand under, which points to a humility needed.

Goo ni itte wa, goo ni shitagae (Follow the rules of the village you are in). I like this phrase but I also love the questioning of it.

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2010, 05:01 AM   #81
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,800
United_States
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

Quote:
Willi Brix wrote: View Post
The giggling part comes when you google for muslim Arab leaders slobbering over each other. If you giggle or not, is up to you, but clearly this speaks to the relevance of Christophers link to the "no bowing" rule.

Clearer now?
I understood what you said the first time. I don't agree that your actions don't constitute ridicule. You establish a double standard, then use the "failure" to meet this impossible standard as a justification for ridicule and fault-finding.

Quote:
Willi Brix wrote: View Post
Of course, the larger question is if the OP wants to go down the road to make his dojo islamically correct.
I don't think it is. I don't think that this is even close to the question posed by OP. I think you are creating a strawman argument using a deliberately inflammatory term. Sorry, but there it is.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2010, 02:51 PM   #82
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 892
United_States
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

Wow, only 85 posts and we have the 2010 politically popular rhetoric of "Islamophobia." I guess calling other posters racist didn't fit the bill because we're talking religion. Of course, claiming someone is afraid of Islam "Islam-phobia" is also pretty ridiculous since clearly no one on any of these posts is claiming to be afraid of Islam.

If anything, I think some posters have raised the question that a post (or more) was insensitive of Islam; prove it. Cite the post, air the facts, and tell that person why you believe their comments were insensitive. As my marriage counselor says, start with "I feel" instead of "you did." Jun will kick the poster's butt and we'll all move on (sorry Jun).

It has somehow become popular of late to use personal prejudice as a valid retort in the course of an argument, let alone the correct prejudicial label. It's a shame to see yet another thread go down the tubes because we resort to personal attacks.

To quote a section of the original post:
He is a Muslim and will not, because of his precepts and faith, bow to the ground either at the Kamiza or to another when we greet in the Japanese way(In our dojo when in seiza we bow all the way down to the mat to another when we finish the session as a thank you).
Additionally:
Would you allow his freedom to follow his creed and forgo the standard dojo bow and just get on with training or not?

I think the very nature of the question is how much leniency should a dojo demonstrate towards religious doctrine and the expression of religious beliefs within the dojo. A broad question like that should solicit many responses, some more conservative in application and some more liberal. The responses may not be valid, but I think the poster is trying to figure out how to balance the dojo's environment against this student's religious needs. And from there, establish a defensible position to preserve that balance.

I would expect some of our Muslin-country friends should respond with "Our dojo is predominantly Muslim and here's what we do..." on the other hand, some of our little town America friends should respond with something like, "Actually, we see more Christians that have difficulty balancing their faith with class than Muslims, but here's how we handled those situations."

Sorry, I'll climb down now.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2010, 05:41 PM   #83
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,939
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
. I think the very nature of the question is how much leniency should a dojo demonstrate towards religious doctrine and the expression of religious beliefs within the dojo. A broad question like that should solicit many responses, some more conservative in application and some more liberal. The responses may not be valid, but I think the poster is trying to figure out how to balance the dojo's environment against this student's religious needs. And from there, establish a defensible position to preserve that balance.
Yep to that too.... what some of us tried to do in our original early replies.... I'll retirerate: personally I wouldn't make that big a deal about a bow , since to me - who doesn't kneel due to physical constraints - it doesn't really affect the overall training. But I would totally draw the line at a refusal to train with another student on anything other than physical safety issues. Having said that, I would also respect any dojocho's considered decision regarding the bow pro or con.

Last edited by akiy : 09-30-2010 at 07:27 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2010, 08:43 PM   #84
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,800
United_States
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Wow, only 85 posts and we have the 2010 politically popular rhetoric of "Islamophobia." I guess calling other posters racist didn't fit the bill because we're talking religion. Of course, claiming someone is afraid of Islam "Islam-phobia" is also pretty ridiculous since clearly no one on any of these posts is claiming to be afraid of Islam.
Context is everything.

Last edited by lbb : 09-30-2010 at 08:48 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2010, 10:24 PM   #85
torbjornsaw
 
torbjornsaw's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Alive London
Location: London
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 74
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

Context is everything.

Do you see now how this was the context for my earlier post "Breaking the will of the ego"?

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 04:20 AM   #86
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

Listen. The man will not bow. That's it. A blind man won't see, and a deaf one won't hear. A religious Muslim will not bow. I fail to understand how that will affect both his training and the training of his partners. Or the respectful atmosphere of the dojo.

It's oh so easy...
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 04:46 AM   #87
torbjornsaw
 
torbjornsaw's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Alive London
Location: London
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 74
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

Good, I like that. It can be that simple can't it?

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 09:32 AM   #88
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

Quote:
Bjorn Saw wrote: View Post
Good, I like that. It can be that simple can't it?
It is. Indeed!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 02:00 PM   #89
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
United_States
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Listen. The man will not bow. That's it. A blind man won't see, and a deaf one won't hear. A religious Muslim will not bow. I fail to understand how that will affect both his training and the training of his partners. Or the respectful atmosphere of the dojo.

It's oh so easy...
Being Muslim isn't a handi-cap.

But I agree he will never bow. However, to join any organization is an acknowledgment of that organization's rules, procedures and by-laws. Being a Muslim is an acknowledgment to Muhammad's law. And choosing to become a member of a dojo is a choice to adhere to that organization's procedures.
In that respect I find the situation complicated.

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 02:39 PM   #90
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,939
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
But I agree he will never bow. However, to join any organization is an acknowledgment of that organization's rules, procedures and by-laws. Being a Muslim is an acknowledgment to Muhammad's law. And choosing to become a member of a dojo is a choice to adhere to that organization's procedures.
In that respect I find the situation complicated.
Only if the organization decides that bowing is mandatory - so, again, it is down to the dojocho to decide what constitutes unbreakable ettiquette.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 02:50 PM   #91
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,556
United_States
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

Funny, this thread reminded me of talking with my 9-year-old this morning. She wanted to play with a puzzle program on the computer. She also wanted to be able to leave early enough to walk to school. She couldn't do both. So she whined and carried on about wanting to play with the computer for so long we were too late to walk to school... So neither happened.

You can't make everyone happy. Sometimes something has to be sacrificed. What gets sacrificed is up to those who are in the position to make that decision. And honestly I would think each situation would be different and the context/history/attitudes/etc. will play into the decisions made.

Lots of energy being expended on what strikes me as a "make a decision and deal with it regardless" kind of situation.

Walk it off.

Next topic?

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 03:20 PM   #92
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
Being Muslim isn't a handi-cap.
Did I say that?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
But I agree he will never bow. However, to join any organization is an acknowledgment of that organization's rules, procedures and by-laws. Being a Muslim is an acknowledgment to Muhammad's law. And choosing to become a member of a dojo is a choice to adhere to that organization's procedures.
In that respect I find the situation complicated.
So ok, you do need to bow to do Aikido. Count me out from now on. Let me call what I do Flintstone Ryu, ok. Won't change a thing, only remove accesory mechanical movements from the art. Because... that's what they are.

After all, not being able to bow is not a handicap.

Last edited by Flintstone : 10-01-2010 at 03:25 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 03:28 PM   #93
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Funny, this thread reminded me of talking with my 9-year-old this morning. She wanted to play with a puzzle program on the computer. She also wanted to be able to leave early enough to walk to school. She couldn't do both. So she whined and carried on about wanting to play with the computer for so long we were too late to walk to school... So neither happened.
Except you're talking about physical laws, not about the necessity of traditional Japanese etiquete when practiced by non-traditional westerners. It's like requiring that I wear a toga if I wanted to join classical latin class.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 03:49 PM   #94
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,556
United_States
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

Yeah, but if they're your laws, your problem.

My wife is of Japanese descent. Some family absolutely requires you remove your shoes before entering their house. You will get yelled at and you'll be seen as an uncouth, nasty person if you disregard their rules about their house. Others aren't so worried about it but they'd *prefer* it if you removed your shoes. Others still couldn't possibly care less.

Their house, their rules.

If someone doesn't want to come in because they don't want to remove their shoes, well, I'll say "that's a shame, however, have a lovely day regardless. See you later."

No one is telling anyone they have to change their behavior. Some do seem to take it much too lightly. I most certainly don't having Islamic friends who are very serious about their religious practice. Nothing but respect for them and their beliefs/practices.

I have been in houses of worship of all types. When I come in I try my best to be respectful. But I fully understand if someone feels their religion prohibits certain behavior that they can ask if the behavior is truly necessary. Hopefully people will make an honest decision on that sort of question. But I don't have a "right" answer. No one really does in any sort of absolute way.

When I walk into some peoples' houses I take off my shoes first. If I don't want to take my shoes off, well, it is their house so I don't go in.

Sometimes beliefs/needs/whatever conflict. Sometimes there is no solution. It may appear to be a minor thing (bowing in a dojo for instance). But some take it very seriously. I do not think bowing is critical to Aikido (personal opinion). However, I also don't believe that someone's religion's prohibition on bowing to someone else entitles them to anything more than a polite "thank you, but no thanks -- train elsewhere."

Honestly I don't see the problem. My house, my rules. Even if you think I'm being small and petty.

Personally I have no problem with no bowing. But I know that some in my organization (born in Japan and very serious about etiquette) might.

My desires to do or not do something are mine. I cannot expect everyone else to accommodate everything I want. Even if *I* think it is a minor thing. No entitlement here.

People are free to believe what they wish. They are free to worship whatever they'd like. Doesn't mean I have to accommodate everyone's requirements if I don't choose to. Doors let you in and doors let you out. They work both ways.

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 04:31 PM   #95
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

You're comparing religion to not wanting the dirt attached at your soles to come into someone's house. Yes, I think that's a poor comparassion. Anyway, you're right, your house your rules. If I was required to bow in my Aikido class, I would laugh at them and leave as if I was required to write Arabic with a kalamos when in Arabic 101.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 04:57 PM   #96
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,556
United_States
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
You're comparing religion to not wanting the dirt attached at your soles to come into someone's house. Yes, I think that's a poor comparassion. Anyway, you're right, your house your rules. If I was required to bow in my Aikido class, I would laugh at them and leave as if I was required to write Arabic with a kalamos when in Arabic 101.
Just realize that not everyone takes religion very seriously. I'm an atheist with a strong science background and to be quite frank I find most religious behavior to be quite odd. Shrug. I also think that requiring "etiquette" to be expressed by only certain physical acts vs. others to be kinda odd.

But that cuts both ways in this discussion as well. Requiring bowing (in the sense of showing respect in a Japanese cultural environment) vs. prohibiting bowing (in a sense of showing submission/inferiority in another environment). The act of bending at the waist takes on meaning due to context and expectation of each person. The physical action isn't the problem, it is the intent expressed behind it. And I find it odd (to be honest) that some do not see them as distinct. So it all strikes me as odd in the extreme that this is an issue for either side.

And why the heck do people slap their hands together at the end of a movie making that awful racket? Clapping seems to odd...

Honestly I'm not arguing with you. You may see the comparison as totally out of whack. I don't hold religion in such high regard and as such I see little difference. But I do respect other peoples' beliefs and personally will accommodate a lot of things as a result. But that is accommodation. A choice I make. There is no categorical imperative here. Just a clash of culture/ideals. And to be honest I see little difference between those who take the etiquette *really* seriously and those who take their religious acts *really* seriously. Whatever. But I've been ruined by my parents, apparently. Shrug.

And in the end... I see little value in discussing it. There is little to debate. If both sides feel strongly, well, they ain't gonna be working out together. If one side will bend a bit, great. If not, well, that's the way it goes.

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 05:21 PM   #97
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

Keith, you're right. Honest.

But, aren't we just doing that all of the time? Accomodating?

I don't have any problem with bowing. I bow, that's all. I'm not a strict Jew, Muslim, Christian, whatever. Neither am I Japanese. My background is science as well and I see bowing just as a way to show respect. But just as much as a simple nod.

Because I don't have any problem with bowing, I also don't have a problem with not bowing. Your religion won't allow you to bow to no man. It's cool to me. I accomodate you.

My problem is with intolerance. That Muslim guy won't force you not to bow; why should you force him to. Just because you're using a foreign tradition (foreign to both you and him) and forcing it into him. If I was that guy, I just would leave, that's all. No fuss. No arguments. But you would be discriminating against religion. It's your house, ok. You have the "civil" right to do, ok. But "morally" reprehensible. Just my POW.

Will you go to a Japanese restaurant and be required to use the chopsticks? Won't you find it weird for them to do so?

Seriously, not arguing with you, but it's just train and let train. O Sensei would not care less about all this bowing or not. We're not talking about go praying to a Shinto shrine and not being able to pray because you're... well... a muslim. What's training in a martial way has to do with religion. That's snobbery to my. Maybe a koryu wannabe syndrome or something.

I'm affraid you must pardon my bad English, but it's late and it's foreign to me anyway. See, you're accomodating me Just please do the same when at dojo.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 05:44 PM   #98
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,556
United_States
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
My problem is with intolerance. That Muslim guy won't force you not to bow; why should you force him to. Just because you're using a foreign tradition (foreign to both you and him) and forcing it into him. If I was that guy, I just would leave, that's all. No fuss. No arguments. But you would be discriminating against religion. It's your house, ok. You have the "civil" right to do, ok. But "morally" reprehensible. Just my POW.
This is where I disagree. There can of course be times when it is an issue of intolerance thinly disguised as requiring the visitor to "do what we do". However, that is not automatically the case. I have sat in on classes at places that had extensive formal "bowing in" routines. And some of those people those were significant and an integral part of the totality of their art. It is not up to me to decide that it isn't important to *their* art any more than it is up to me to decide that bowing isn't a prohibited behavior within some religion. I would do neither. The muslim is not being "forced" to bow. That is really an unfair characterization. How the art is taught, what the teachers feel is significant, etc. is up to those teachers to decide. If the teachers do not wish to alter their teaching and style, well, there you go.

Of course if the person making the decision is requiring the bowing for the wrong reasons, well, sure, that's just terrible. That is intolerance and is despicable. But if those in charge at a dojo sincerely believes that bowing is necessary or an integral part of the history of their practice of their version of their art in *their* dojo, well, that's how it is. Everyone has to bow. Period. In that case the issue is not with the person being Muslim but simply with a prospective student refusing to do what is expected to train at this place.

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2010, 04:13 AM   #99
WilliB
Dojo: Minato Aikikai
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 144
Japan
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
So ok, you do need to bow to do Aikido. Count me out from now on. Let me call what I do Flintstone Ryu, ok.
I would agree. Call it Flintstone Ryu or whatever. But if you claim to practise an existing Japanese art, you have accept the rules of that art.

Likewise, if you open a gay bar, you should not call it a "mosque". I am use the problem customer of the OP agrees.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2010, 04:51 AM   #100
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: To bow or not to bow

Quote:
Willi Brix wrote: View Post
I would agree. Call it Flintstone Ryu or whatever. But if you claim to practise an existing Japanese art, you have accept the rules of that art.
And which are exactly the rules of Aikido? Now that's a mouthful!
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:59 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate