Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Testing

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-14-2010, 11:35 AM   #1
chadbanister
Dojo: Open Sky Aikido/Triangle Aikido
Location: Durham
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5
United_States
Offline
Ai symbol Testing before minimums???

I am fairly new to Aikido, with just eight months of training. I have tested and passed my first two kyu grades and am looking to take a third test in a month or two. My wife and I just moved down to NC from Grand Rapids MI. I trained at a AAA dojo up their and have been training at a USAF dojo down here with a great sensei. My questions relate to the differences in requirements between the two dojos. At AAA the minimums have you testing for shodan in three years, while the USAF have you testing for the same rank in over five years if you train five days a week. My new sensei said to me after just a week of training at the new dojo that I seem to have a natural ability for the art and he see's me advancing very quickly with this dojo. I was also told similar things from my previous dojo.

Now I am not a belt chaser or an ego-maniac, before people start going crazy about that. But I do like consistant motivation in the art. It seems that the black belt in our western society has been given the view of "Man, I'm a black belt in blah, blah, blah, I am a master of my art." This is horse#@!$. It is just the start, If we want the train in traditional Aikido, then we need to stop tacking on years and years of training for a beginning level shodan.

For someone who is training hard and consistantly and seems to pick things up very quickly, can the sensei override the testing minimum time requirements?
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 12:34 PM   #2
ninjaqutie
 
ninjaqutie's Avatar
Dojo: Searching for a new home
Location: Delaware (<3 still in Oregon!)
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,003
United_States
Offline
Re: Testing before minimums???

Depends on the dojo and the sensei. How many hours are you putting in a week?

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 01:53 PM   #3
chadbanister
Dojo: Open Sky Aikido/Triangle Aikido
Location: Durham
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5
United_States
Offline
Re: Testing before minimums???

I have been putting in about five or more hours a week. I am just curious as to the minimums. Are they written in stone for organizations such as the USAF or are they flexable to the abilities of the student. If a student is ready to test then I am sure the instructor will let me know, but what if I need 100 training days, but am ready at 60? Can the sensei bypass those required days to allow the student to test?
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 02:29 PM   #4
Basia Halliop
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711
Canada
Offline
Re: Testing before minimums???

Officially, the test amounts are minimums -- you're technically supposed to have that many _or more_. Otherwise I doubt they'd bother putting them.... How much does the USAF enforce them? That I don't know, and I suspect it depends a lot on your sensei.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about it. Many people aren't really ready at the specified number of days (including some who test anyway, sadly) -- if you have the opportunity to do each test at a really high level, I'd just do that. It's to your _benefit_ to have more days of training. When you eventually get to shodan, it would be great to have a really good strong test, and not just pass. It's not like testing earlier in your training will let you learn anything faster...

Quote:
It seems that the black belt in our western society has been given the view of "Man, I'm a black belt in blah, blah, blah, I am a master of my art." This is horse#@!$. It is just the start, If we want the train in traditional Aikido, then we need to stop tacking on years and years of training for a beginning level shodan.
OK, I'm totally not getting this -- shodan is just an arbitrary designation -- so one organization makes it a more intermediate beginner grade, and another makes it a more advanced beginner grade. So? It doesn't really make any difference to how much you learn; it's just a name. It just means the ranks won't translate from one organization to another, and a shodan in one organization will be like a 2nd kyu in another. For me, I prefer the second way, since in the USAF there are only formal tests up to sandan... so if shodan is too easy then nidan becomes what I am used to thinking of as shodan, and then there's only sandan after that to make sure that people are going past solid basics.

But as to your original question, I think you'd have to ask in your dojo... Or watch to see how many days your fellow students have when they're asked to test.

Last edited by Basia Halliop : 09-14-2010 at 02:35 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 02:39 PM   #5
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
United_States
Offline
Re: Testing before minimums???

Quote:
Chad Banister wrote: View Post
I have been putting in about five or more hours a week. I am just curious as to the minimums. Are they written in stone for organizations such as the USAF or are they flexable to the abilities of the student. If a student is ready to test then I am sure the instructor will let me know, but what if I need 100 training days, but am ready at 60? Can the sensei bypass those required days to allow the student to test?
In the USAF they are pretty much in stone. There are minimal for kyu ranks within the USAF, both in ability and in hours. Your individual Sensei who would be either a fukishidoin or shidoin might advance you through the kyu ranks at their digression, irregardless of hours if they think you are of a certain ability. I'm not at liberty to judge whether allowing students to have an exhilarated advancement through the kyu ranks is a respectable action by a Sensei or not. All I know is that some sensei think it is okay, other's think it isn't okay!
(If you sensei is a shihan, you are at luck to not have to worry about traveling to a shihan to test black belt.)

Now as for Black Belt. There are standards, and if you aren't up to the standards in both hours and ability, I wouldn't bet on a black belt within the USAF. USAF also requires you to attend two seminars a year. Basically, go out and see the Shihans! lol
If your ability or days are not up to snub, you won't pass. (Typically when your hours aren't up, your ability isn't up either, generally! There are exceptions.)

And I don't know if you have been keeping up with Yamada Sensei's new letter or not; but I was at Winter Camp last year and Yamada Sensei held the black belt tests. There were a few people testing who didn't have their hours, and didn't have their basic skills in order for a Dan testing. Those people flat out failed. And their Sensei reportedly had a good talking to! Which was followed by a less than happy newsletter by Yamada Sensei, reporting his concerns. (Yamada Sensei's writings are on Aikido online)
Basically he was pissed off.
It is always best for your career within any organization to not piss off the chairman of that organization

So basically what I'm saying is that there are no exceptions, other than physical limitation, to the minimal standards of the dan testings.

Much love!

Last edited by RED : 09-14-2010 at 02:42 PM.

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 02:48 PM   #6
Russ Q
Dojo: Shohei Juku Aikido Gibsons
Location: Gibsons BC
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 193
Canada
Offline
Re: Testing before minimums???

Trust what your sensei is telling your re: rank. If he says your ready for x rank and wants you test I think you can assume you're good to go regardless of hours or requirements. If you do badly it will be representative of your sensei too so I doubt he will ask you to test if you're not ready. You understand already that rank is arbitrary so enjoy and hone your natural ability.

Cheers,

Russ
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 02:59 PM   #7
Basia Halliop
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711
Canada
Offline
Re: Testing before minimums???

I've also seen people pass, but pass just barely, sometimes with controversy. It would be pretty humiliating to realize you're 'that guy' whose test everyone who was there remembers...

Not to say that you might not genuinely be ready in less than the minimum amount of time. People do progress at different rates, depending on them and depending on their teacher.

But if your sensei isn't pushing you to, then I'd leave it be and just enjoy the opportunity to get extra training in. If your sensei is pushing you to then it just depends on how much you trust your sensei's judgement and standards.

Last edited by Basia Halliop : 09-14-2010 at 03:08 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 03:02 PM   #8
Basia Halliop
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711
Canada
Offline
Re: Testing before minimums???

Quote:
(If you sensei is a shihan, you are at luck to not have to worry about traveling to a shihan to test black belt.)
Although some shihans prefer to send their students to test publicly at seminars in front of the other shihans anyway...
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 03:07 PM   #9
chadbanister
Dojo: Open Sky Aikido/Triangle Aikido
Location: Durham
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5
United_States
Offline
Re: Testing before minimums???

I appreciate the posts of useful information. I came from a AAA school and found a great USAF dojo, I guess I just need to talk to my sensei about it. He would be the one who knows. I just don't want to come off as someone who is trying to rush to a belt and quit. That is not my intention, I love the art of Aikido and god willing will be able to practice it for many more decades.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 05:03 PM   #10
ninjaqutie
 
ninjaqutie's Avatar
Dojo: Searching for a new home
Location: Delaware (<3 still in Oregon!)
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,003
United_States
Offline
Re: Testing before minimums???

Quote:
Chad Banister wrote: View Post
I just don't want to come off as someone who is trying to rush to a belt and quit. That is not my intention, I love the art of Aikido and god willing will be able to practice it for many more decades.
Then don't worry about what rank you are or when you are going to test and just enjoy the ride.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 08:14 PM   #11
odudog
Dojo: Dale City Aikikai
Location: VA
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 383
Offline
Re: Testing before minimums???

Some politics play into this. If your Sensei has some juice, then he/she can push you through the ranking even though you don't have the hours. The USAF is cracking down on the lack of hours thing, but I'm sure that their is still juice being pulled behind the scenes. Seagal Sensei was pushed through really quickly for political reasons. He has the skill no doubt, but he still didn't have the time in grade for certain levels.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 08:23 PM   #12
ramenboy
Dojo: midwest aikido center
Location: chicago
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 328
Offline
Re: Testing before minimums???

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
Then don't worry about what rank you are or when you are going to test and just enjoy the ride.
bingo!!!!!!

practice hard
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2010, 01:19 AM   #13
giriasis
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 819
United_States
Offline
Re: Testing before minimums???

Part of it maybe that you already have previous experience and your sensei is taking that into consideration. But, normally the USAF testing guidelines are to be followed. The Technical Committee would not have put them there if they did not think that they were important. However, the earlier ranks like 6th, 5th and 4th kyu, you can seemingly pass through them rather quickly. It is when you begin to test for 3rd, 2nd and 1st kyu is when testing slows down as a consquence of longer time between tests compounded with higher expectations of skill level.

As far as time to black belt, 5 years is probablly the earliest you can test if you train everyday and test on the day that you get your "time in". For most people it can take between 5 - 8 years to reach black belt.

As to what Maggie said about dan test failures. Yes, they do happen in our association. I have seen it. Most of the time the fault is placed on the Sensei.

Last edited by giriasis : 09-15-2010 at 01:24 AM. Reason: Grammer and just to add a comment...

Anne Marie Giri
Women in Aikido: a place where us gals can come together and chat about aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2010, 08:42 AM   #14
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
United_States
Offline
Re: Testing before minimums???

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
I've also seen people pass, but pass just barely, sometimes with controversy. It would be pretty humiliating to realize you're 'that guy' whose test everyone who was there remembers...

.
The hard part is that you are embarrassing your Sensei and school...even more so than yourself. They were the ones that put you up to test after all, and the school that sent a poor quality Aikidoka up will be judged by the quality of student they present to the technical comity.
I've heard to many stories about Yamada Sensei, or other Technical comity members "having a word" with the Sensei of failing students. I've heard of Yamada Sensei "having a word" with students who had passed, but barely passed, black belt tests as well. So my only opinion would be is, if you are going to test, be prepared. I think you are gonna want to look like a black belt on the test coming off the bat. It is embarrassing to pass, but pass while struggling.

Last edited by RED : 09-15-2010 at 08:46 AM.

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2010, 09:27 AM   #15
Walter Martindale
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
Location: Cambridge, ON
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 658
Canada
Offline
Re: Testing before minimums???

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
The hard part is that you are embarrassing your Sensei and school...even more so than yourself. They were the ones that put you up to test after all, and the school that sent a poor quality Aikidoka up will be judged by the quality of student they present to the technical comity.
I've heard to many stories about Yamada Sensei, or other Technical comity members "having a word" with the Sensei of failing students. I've heard of Yamada Sensei "having a word" with students who had passed, but barely passed, black belt tests as well. So my only opinion would be is, if you are going to test, be prepared. I think you are gonna want to look like a black belt on the test coming off the bat. It is embarrassing to pass, but pass while struggling.
Agreed... (I've seen other shihan "have a word" with various sensei also. Most of the sensei I've been around have wanted people going for their tests to be so good with the test in question that they were almost ready for the next level... (e.g., a person going for 1kyu being completely familiar with shodan requirements).
W
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2010, 09:48 AM   #16
giriasis
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 819
United_States
Offline
Re: Testing before minimums???

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
The hard part is that you are embarrassing your Sensei and school...even more so than yourself. They were the ones that put you up to test after all, and the school that sent a poor quality Aikidoka up will be judged by the quality of student they present to the technical comity.
I've heard to many stories about Yamada Sensei, or other Technical comity members "having a word" with the Sensei of failing students. I've heard of Yamada Sensei "having a word" with students who had passed, but barely passed, black belt tests as well. So my only opinion would be is, if you are going to test, be prepared. I think you are gonna want to look like a black belt on the test coming off the bat. It is embarrassing to pass, but pass while struggling.
I have to completely "ditto" this. I have heard stories where Yamada Sensei failed everyone. My first winter camp with about 25 dan (shodan through sandan) tests Yamada Sensei only passed a couple of people on "merit" which he announced to everyone. The remaining testers after Yamada Sense spoke with all the sensei involved later on. The testers found out that they passed but only on "recommendation." And, they knew it, too. Yes, it's embarrasing, but if your sensei does not fully prepare you, but tells you that you are ready, then how do you know your not?

Anne Marie Giri
Women in Aikido: a place where us gals can come together and chat about aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2010, 10:58 AM   #17
JO
Dojo: Aikikai de l'Université Laval
Location: Sainte-Catherine-de-la-J.-C., Québec
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 292
Canada
Offline
Re: Testing before minimums???

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post

Now as for Black Belt. There are standards, and if you aren't up to the standards in both hours and ability, I wouldn't bet on a black belt within the USAF. USAF also requires you to attend two seminars a year. Basically, go out and see the Shihans! lol
If your ability or days are not up to snub, you won't pass. (Typically when your hours aren't up, your ability isn't up either, generally! There are exceptions.)
I know people from at least 2 people from 2 dojos that passed dan exams in the USAF without having the hours, though only they and their senseis probably know the whole truth (the number of hours written on the form is not necessarily always accurate). Then again even they may not be sure, not everybody keeps especially complete or accurate records of attendance.

For me, my criteria when preparing for an exam is simple. Can I do what is expected and not embarrass myself or my sensei? The rest I leave to others (my senseis, the technical committee, etc.) to figure out.

Jonathan Olson
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2010, 11:12 AM   #18
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
United_States
Offline
Re: Testing before minimums???

Quote:
Anne Marie Giri wrote: View Post
I have to completely "ditto" this. I have heard stories where Yamada Sensei failed everyone. My first winter camp with about 25 dan (shodan through sandan) tests Yamada Sensei only passed a couple of people on "merit" which he announced to everyone. The remaining testers after Yamada Sense spoke with all the sensei involved later on. The testers found out that they passed but only on "recommendation." And, they knew it, too. Yes, it's embarrasing, but if your sensei does not fully prepare you, but tells you that you are ready, then how do you know your not?
I agree. I think most people would like to think that their sensei would never do anything embarrassing to themselves, like send up an unprepared person to test.
One of Yamada Sensei's articles said "people start to believe their own shit." Meaning some times dojo can be so isolated that they forget what good Aikido looks like. They have been training in their own little circle for so long that they simply no longer know what a dan rank should look like, and they start to believe that their sub-par Aikido is good enough for dan ranking. I've heard stories of Sensei arguing with Yamada Sensei and the Tech. comity when a student had failed the dan test. I think sometimes some schools are so isolated that they honestly believe that their lack-luster standards for dan should be accepted by the Tech comity.

Adversely, my dojo consistently hosts other dojo's (in and out of the USAF) for friendship training. We are encouraged to go see other teachers, we invite other teachers in. We are encouraged to go out and seek shihan instruction. (Especially the 2nd generation Aikidoka. With the loss of both Tamura and Sagano Sensei so close together, I think it amplifies the importance to seek this generation's instruction while we still can. No one lives forever, no matter how much we love them and want them to.)

Last edited by RED : 09-15-2010 at 11:18 AM.

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2010, 02:09 PM   #19
ninjaqutie
 
ninjaqutie's Avatar
Dojo: Searching for a new home
Location: Delaware (<3 still in Oregon!)
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,003
United_States
Offline
Re: Testing before minimums???

Maggie, do you happen to have links to these articles? I would be interested in reading them.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2010, 02:23 PM   #20
Basia Halliop
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711
Canada
Offline
Re: Testing before minimums???

I don't know if this is the one Anne Marie was thinking of, but here is a column where in part of it Yamada Sensei discusses failing people in tests.

http://usafaikidonews.com/2008/2/index.shtml
"Just like other big seminars, we had a test for black belt and I must say it was a strict one because there were other Shihan beside myself sitting at the table. Believe me, they are tougher than I am. I wasn't joking when I said the same thing before. However, I think it is good to have more than one judge at the table for many reasons.

When I give a test, I want to pass everybody but it is not always possible. I want to be a nice guy, but when there is a reason for me to be a tough guy, I am. It is my responsibility to pay respect to the value of Black Belt, and to keep a standard of good quality for Black Belt. Please understand this. When I fail you, I don't fail you alone but your teacher as well. When tests are bad, you cannot find me after the test because I hide myself in my dressing room. I feel sorry to see the people who failed their test and, more than that, I don't want to hear the complaints from their teacher, which happens occasionally, although I understand that most parents love their kids and think they are the best.

It sounds like I'm asking too much if I say this but let me tell you what I'd like to hear from both students and teachers after their unsuccessful test. From the student's side, I would feel good if they say "Sorry I embarrassed my teacher. I'll do better next time if you give me another chance," and from the teacher I'd like to hear "Sorry I have embarrassed myself. I clearly see what my student needs to do to improve.""

And another one a few years back where he talks of the role of the teacher:
http://usafaikidonews.com/2005/3/index.shtml
"As far as the last tests were concerned, they were very satisfactory. One thing I'd like to point out is that if you are sending your student to test, you - as the teacher - must attend the test. If you are not there, how could you tell if your student did well or not? And also as a teacher you should know that if your student has failed you should take the blame. So, the next time you send your student to a seminar to test, make sure your student is ready so as not to embarrass yourself."

Here's an old Aikido Online interview (1981) in which Yamada Sensei discusses testing:
http://www.aikidoonline.com/articles...on_Testing.php

Last edited by Basia Halliop : 09-15-2010 at 02:36 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2010, 03:10 PM   #21
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
United_States
Offline
Re: Testing before minimums???

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
Maggie, do you happen to have links to these articles? I would be interested in reading them.
http://www.aikidoonline.com/articles...on_Testing.php

Hey, this is one article on the subject. On the same site there are several others.

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2010, 03:17 PM   #22
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
United_States
Offline
Re: Testing before minimums???

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
http://www.aikidoonline.com/articles...on_Testing.php

Hey, this is one article on the subject. On the same site there are several others.
this is a good one too on he testing subject:

http://www.aikidoonline.com/articles...s_Business.php

http://www.aikidoonline.com/articles...Instructor.php

Last edited by RED : 09-15-2010 at 03:28 PM.

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2010, 04:54 PM   #23
Russ Q
Dojo: Shohei Juku Aikido Gibsons
Location: Gibsons BC
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 193
Canada
Offline
Re: Testing before minimums???

Thanks Maggie,

That second article is really good. Yamada Sensei is not my shihan but his words resonate deeply.

Thank you,

Russ
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2010, 08:13 PM   #24
chadbanister
Dojo: Open Sky Aikido/Triangle Aikido
Location: Durham
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5
United_States
Offline
Ai symbol Re: Testing before minimums???

Everyone's opinions have been great. I have talked to my sensei and finally realize that I love the art of Aikido and if you are talented you could rise up a little quicker than some. But it is the quality of your Aikido that matters, not the belt. I will someday in the fairly near future reach shodan and beyond, but I have realized that quality training and learning are what is of the greatest importance. And being at a dojo that cares about your training and progress as an aikidoka. Thank you all again,

Chad Banister
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2010, 08:21 AM   #25
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,804
United_States
Online
Re: Testing before minimums???

Quote:
Chad Banister wrote: View Post
I appreciate the posts of useful information. I came from a AAA school and found a great USAF dojo, I guess I just need to talk to my sensei about it. He would be the one who knows. I just don't want to come off as someone who is trying to rush to a belt and quit. That is not my intention, I love the art of Aikido and god willing will be able to practice it for many more decades.
Well, you won't "rush to a belt", so don't worry about that. Most people never get there, and nobody in USAF gets there quickly. Beginner talent has a way of evaporating -- it's not that rare to see beginners in a martial art who "master" things quickly at the start, but that doesn't last, and that's when a lot of these talented beginners quit. Likewise, people who train the max days possible don't usually sustain their training pace -- even if life doesn't intervene (five evenings a week is more than most people with a life can spend on any hobby), most people who train that much get burned out. Your pace of training will probably slow, you'll spend longer and longer between tests even if your sensei cheats on the hours...if you do hang in there, it will be a long haul.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Announced Vs. Unannounced Testing jitensha Testing 32 08-01-2011 12:23 AM
ASU testing requirements bob_s Testing 7 11-28-2007 11:16 AM
Frustration about testing David Paul Testing 16 06-04-2007 10:15 AM
Testing Bewildered Rokyu Anonymous 7 09-10-2006 01:17 PM
refusing a grading Kung Fu Liane Testing 39 05-09-2003 03:53 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:05 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate