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Old 09-07-2010, 10:44 AM   #26
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

Quote:
Yoshimine Yasuo wrote:
Now, as of aiki age, presently, even this technique are often misunderstood. Many people confuse this with Kokyuho in aikido. They looks alike but their purpose is completely different. That is Kokyuhou or Tenchinage in akido originally meant atemi into jaw with palm. In Daitoryu, there are no concept to push someone down with charge like in sumo. The correct concept is to uplift your opponent or smash opponent directly below and the techniques which exemplify this fundamental principle are aiki age (aiki lift) and aiki sage (aiki takedown). These two use entire body and are not mere hand techniques. Hence by looking at even one photo, one could tell whether someone has managed to do it or not. Extremely bad example is when one push someone down just by using body weight . If one do aiki age from kneeling position, if someone standing losing balance on top of you even if your back is straight and your haven't broken your keeling, then it is the real deal. And if you have opportunity to experience aiki age, pay close attention to the feeling when you grab this person's arm. With someone who can really do this, there are rarely any sensation of grip because there is no collision of power. Accordingly, anyone who push back with force are out of question. And the biggest difference between correct aiki age and the incorrect one are whether one can make the movement smaller and smaller through training. If one try to push back with force or using body weight, one will never be able to do it. That is, true purpose of aiki is to utilise aiki in every taijutu technique by making it smaller and sharper through polishing your technique. That is why I mentioned in other place that if you got wrong teacher, you never make it.
from<. Did I understand right, there is a book by Yasuo?
This< was interesting too.
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Old 09-07-2010, 11:34 AM   #27
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

Sorry; I think that came out rude; I meant: Is there a book written by Yoshimine Yasuo? And if so; is there an English translation? Couldn't quite figure that out..
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Old 09-07-2010, 05:18 PM   #28
Allen Beebe
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Aiki age is a Daito ryu principle. As Dan posted, it's "rising energy". I know of two aikido schools who have used this phrase -- those of Tomiki and Shioda. But, then again, they were Daito ryu students of Ueshiba.

Modern aikido tends to use the term kokyu ho or kokyu dosa.

Kokyu ho is defined here:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia?entryID=418

Youtube version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsBDgaDtTtM

The kneeling version shown in the beginning of the vid is what other aikido people call "kokyu dosa".

Both of these terms, kokyu ho and kokyu dosa, typically refer to an exercise.

The difference in the two terms:
aiki age is a principle
kokyu ho/kokyu dosa is an exercise

The similarities should be that when you are practicing the exercise kokyu ho/kokyu dosa, you should be practicing the principle aiki age. But, that doesn't mean this is always true. YMMV in each dojo/school/teacher.

Mark
FWIW,

The 法 (Ho) in 呼吸法 Kokyuho is commonly defined as "law," such as a "law of nature" or "Buddhist law."

Whereas 動作 (dosa) in 呼吸動作 (kokyudosa) commonly refers to "action; movements; motions; bearing; behaviour; behavior; execution; actuation; operation; manners."

So in my mind, for whatever that is worth, I've always thought of Kokyuho as a referent to a law or principal, while Kokyuhdosa was a referent to Kokyu in action. Kokyu WAZA are a specific collection of kata. So they appear in order of increasing specificity.

No Kokyuho = No Kokyu Dosa
No Kokyu Dosa = No Kokyu Waza*

*The Kata can still be performed, just without any Kokyu Dosa reflecting Kokyu Ho.

So, anyway, it seems to me, to my mind at least, the whole Kokyu thing isn't that dissimilar from Aiki Age in that both phrases can be (and are commonly) used as a referents to a Principle/Law, a movement, or a particular waza. Also, both are susceptible to individual interpretation, or mis-interpretation depending upon one's view.

Of course Aiki Age and Aiki Sage, on the surface at least, appear to be a bit more discrete in their directional reference than Kokyu . . . on the other hand, if they are not linear in nature then where does the Age or Sage begin or end exactly? Perhaps there specificity is more of a referent of relative convenience rather than an absolute.

Okay, I'll stop rambling, I just thought that the Ho/Dosa differentiation my be pertinent to some readers. For more scholarly discussion of linguistics I rapidly differ and bow to my superiors . . .

Oh and as far as specific definitions of the laws, principles, actions, and any associated techniques one may routinely associate with those actions, principles and laws, I again rapidly differ to my superiors . . .

Allen

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 09-08-2010, 07:46 AM   #29
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

Hello Allen,

To what extent do you think that Aiki-age / Age-sage demonstrates a law, as against action, movements, execution etc (the distinction reflected in your own post about 法 vesrsus 動作)?

Presumably the action, movements execution of 動作 would be in accordance with the 法.

Or have I completely misunderstood you?

Best wishes,

PAG

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Old 09-08-2010, 03:29 PM   #30
Allen Beebe
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

Hi Peter,

I hoped we would be hearing from you. I also hoped to avoid personal embarrassment by preemptively deferring to those (you being one) that clearly have superior knowledge and/or experience in the area of linguistics and/or "laws, principles, actions and any associated techniques . . . "

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Oh and as far as specific definitions of the laws, principles, actions, and any associated techniques one may routinely associate with those actions, principles and laws, I again rapidly differ to my superiors . . .
See??? So, THANK A LOT PETER!

Nevertheless, I will endeavor to demonstrate good faith by sharing the following extremely general metaphor:

The human body has a systemic circulatory system. That system, as the name implies, describes a circuit. In simplistic terms, here is blood flowing away from the heart and blood flowing (returning) toward the heart, describing a circle of sorts. One direction could be called Aiki Age and one could be called Aiki Sage. Now this describes directionality or an action but it also describes a law or a principle. There is direction to the blood and it is in action. On the other hand, when oxygen and nutrients enter the body, or when toxins, etc. leave the body they must follow the "law" or "principle" of the systemic circulatory system or health will be impaired. When the law of the systemic circulatory system is broken, not only is health (optimal functioning) impaired but the results also requires an instantaneous, although often unnoticed allocation of bodily resources to try to bring the "violation" back into some semblance of order. This "band aid" not only depletes resources but also is never as efficient as the original system the the entire organism is compromised in an ongoing fashion. Furthermore, their is commonly a resultant stagnation/storage/excess or depletion which can result in "toxicity" or weakness. All of this due to the breaking of the "law" of the systemic circulatory system.

On the other hand, one can build up the system such that it, not only has a larger than normal standing capacity, but it is also more efficient and has a higher than normal capacity for receiving and processing incoming material as well as exiting it. The training to build the circulatory system takes place consciously, while the results are something that one "does" unconsciously (or consciously at will in the case of some) AND also "is." (One either has a highly developed and efficient circulatory system or one doesn't.)

Well that is my try at articulating what I meant by the Principle/Action relationship via a metaphor. Once again, please let me emphasize that: A) I am still trying to figure this out myself. B) It seems to me that there are folks further down the path than I. And, C) If anyone of those folks that are further down the path than I would care to share their wisdom, I like to think that I would be the first to shut up, sit back (if that were appropriate) and learn what I can.

If I completely misunderstood your question or if I my attempt at an answer was completely opaque (both of which are possible and probably likely in my case) and if you think it worth the trouble, please don't hesitate to ask for clarification and I will make another attempt despite my limited resources and capacity.

It is great to hear from you BTW,
Allen

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 09-08-2010, 03:59 PM   #31
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Of course Aiki Age and Aiki Sage, on the surface at least, appear to be a bit more discrete in their directional reference than Kokyu . . . on the other hand, if they are not linear in nature then where does the Age or Sage begin or end exactly? Perhaps there specificity is more of a referent of relative convenience rather than an absolute.
Allen,
I am not sure I am understanding your posts (this one or the next one) but your posts are making my brain work which is good.

For clarity do you see Aiki age and Aiki sage as linear in nature?

Why would either need a defined begining or end point?

If a begining/end point is needed wouldn't that point be the same? i.e. where tori's leverage to the planet is located?

Take care,

Mark J.
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Old 09-08-2010, 06:39 PM   #32
Allen Beebe
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

Hi Mark,

Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote: View Post
I am not sure I am understanding your posts (this one or the next one)
Yeah, I was afraid of that. Should have just left my big mouth shut! (As usual. ) I admit that I am a weak and flawed human being that frequently succumbs to the temptation of the keyboard . . . especially while succumbing to the temptation of wine!

Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote: View Post
but your posts are making my brain work which is good.
Thanks. Thought provoking is better that down right dumb. I'll take it!

Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote: View Post
For clarity do you see Aiki age and Aiki sage as linear in nature?
No. Not linear at all in the sense of terminability. Just the opposite really. I see them (keeping in mind that my opinion is probably worth what you are paying for it) as forming a mutually created, and therefore ideally balanced, circuit. I see them as existing in "my" body/mind continuous with the ubiquitous forces that surround and permeate "me."

Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote: View Post
Why would either need a defined begining or end point?
Well that is what I was pondering. Linguistically it seemed to me that the terms imply a beginning/end, zenith/nadir, or at least some dualistically implied relative relationship. While at the same time my understanding denied that duality. I added it to the list of things that make me go, "Hmmm!?!?"

Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote: View Post
If a begining/end point is needed wouldn't that point be the same?
I guess, but my mind troubles at the whole "point" idea. My intuition tells me that the "point" would need to be a "singularity." But, while that is all fine and dandy in theory, and actually seems to comply with my experience to a certain degree. Nevertheless, I get uncomfortable when I can't explain things in "everyday" simple terms and the ever present pragmatist side of my personality demands to see immediate non-negotiable evidence.

Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote: View Post
i.e. where tori's leverage to the planet is located?
I don't know. There is gravitational force applying itself to every atom of "my" body. There is the "push back" force of the earth applying itself to "my" body. There are combo forces (resultant forces of the combination of those two) such as air pressure/wind/another individual's physically applied force. There is the "force" of my sentience that somehow manages these forces. (BTW IMHO there is immediate non-negotiable evidence for this despite rumors to the contrary! SHUT UP GUYS!!) And there is the "force" of other sentient being's sentience managing these same forces.

I'm not saying, "No." I'm saying I'm still learning. I will say that non-linearity seems to work a whole lot better than linearity. And it also seems to coincide with a significant number of O-sensei's doka that seem to me to be, at once, explicit AND poetic.

But here is the thing for me. Unless I can walk the talk, I don't think I should be talking much, particularly on international public forums.

So, please, let me re-emphasize (desperately) that my original post was merely pointing out that, in my experience, there is a differentiation between the terms Kokyu Ho (Pointing to a law or principle) and Kokyu Dosa (Pointing to an action). And I personally saw a parallel between that relationship and that of Aiki Age and Sage which in my experience could be understood as either a principle or as description.

So, to sum up. No to linearity. I'm not sure about the "leverage to the planet thing." My present model/understanding is focused on balancing forces (all kinds) in a non-linear fashion (in my body and with my body) with the concentration on the balance/harmonization/unification rather than on a particular force or "possessor" of the force. Consequently, there is no contention, stress, strain, enemy, etc. "I" am transparent, there is only power therefore I am the Universe . . . but wait . . . AND I'm above average, pleasant to be around, smell nice and am irresistibly attractive!!

Sounds good . . . too bad I still suck!

When will you be back in Stump town?

Allen

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 09-08-2010, 09:55 PM   #33
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

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Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
When will you be back in Stump town?
I chose to become unempl......errr.. self-employed earlier this year, hence I am no longer traveling the entire USA at my whim. Although I will be in SeaTown later this month. Hopefully I will get to catch up with N.Y. and company, plus the Systema crowd.

Sorry I have no answers to your questions but I enjoy listening to your thoughts, thanks for sharing.

You kinda highlight one of my long standing issues; using Japanese (or other language terms) to describe different concepts. As these terms are rarely agreed upon in the native language it becomes even more inane when English speakers attempt to use the terms. Universal agreement, let alone understanding, makes discussion challenging at best and requires an initial or base-line agreement of each term to be discussed. ....... On second thought much of the disagreement on any forum is directly related to different understanding of the terms. Perhaps not a bad thing as one can learn / be exposed to new ideas simply by listening.

The leverage from the planet is in regard to a strictly physical understanding of the topic. While gravity pulls on all parts of the body, we generally connect with a limited portion of the body and that is where our leverage (poor choice of words) originates.

Question: Can we have up with out down? Can we have down without up? Translate that to can we have aiki age without aiki sage or the reverse?

Take care,

Mark J.
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Old 09-09-2010, 08:33 AM   #34
phitruong
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

i thought the begin of aiki age is aiki sage and vice versa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUS219OXF38#t=53s

although, Okamoto sensei did it with his hands, it should be with the whole body. i am pretty sure he did it with his body internally, but to show it with his hands.

don't see why aikiage and aikisage couldn't be lateral movements which would be clockwise and counter clockwise or combine with up and down to give spiral up and spiral down.

personally, i don't think the shape matter all that much. then again, what do i know about this stuffs, since i am a novice at it where i got my toes stuck in the door jam.
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Old 09-10-2010, 01:10 PM   #35
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote: View Post
..I enjoy listening to your thoughts, thanks for sharing.
Yes. Me too. Thank you. It is always so interesting to hear others' thoughts on it.

IIRC: I remember Sagawa saying about figuring out aiki age, i believe doing this very exercise, when he was 17, by his Dad holding him down strongly...and that this was his initial discovery of aiki. That seems like he was trying to drop a big hint in that we should be working on this problem. .. although it has to be noted that he did feel it first from Takeda..so that stands to reason that must have been some kind of inspiration.

Do you think this is a good way into figuring out aiki age? (i.e. just doing kokyu ho agains harder and harder holds)?
I don't know.

/some thoughts.
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Old 09-10-2010, 01:24 PM   #36
Keith Larman
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

Just fwiw, I find it vastly more educational for myself to test things like this with new students. Especially strong new students who've never seen it before. I ask them to hold and hold tight and hard. Put energy in like they're trying to drive me backwards as they hold. Make it hard for me. I think the problem is that experienced folk tend to have something they *want* to feel and they'll go with it when they feel that thing the expect. I'm not talking about some sort of overt thing but more of a problem of too many years training in certain ways. I love having some big goon with no preconceptions grab on. Then I have a real problem to solve and aikiage is one of those things that seems magical for real when you can pull it off correctly in that context.

Just a view from the cheap seats...

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Old 09-10-2010, 08:56 PM   #37
gregstec
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Just fwiw, I find it vastly more educational for myself to test things like this with new students. Especially strong new students who've never seen it before. I ask them to hold and hold tight and hard. Put energy in like they're trying to drive me backwards as they hold. Make it hard for me. I think the problem is that experienced folk tend to have something they *want* to feel and they'll go with it when they feel that thing the expect. I'm not talking about some sort of overt thing but more of a problem of too many years training in certain ways. I love having some big goon with no preconceptions grab on. Then I have a real problem to solve and aikiage is one of those things that seems magical for real when you can pull it off correctly in that context.

Just a view from the cheap seats...
I sit a lot in the cheap seats too, and like you, I like playing with big and strong newbies as well for the very same reasons - they don't know what is coming therefore they won't know how to set up to block it and they won't go with it because all they know is to grab tight - you really have to do it right to make it work

Greg
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Old 09-11-2010, 01:24 AM   #38
Rob Watson
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
... with new students. Especially strong new students who've never seen it before. I ask them to hold and hold tight and hard.
Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
I like playing with big and strong newbies as well for the very same reasons
As long as the cheap seats are open ... I always find the excessive tightness in newbie shoulders make the execution trivial. Making it work on someone who knows what's up and trying to foil and still being able to pull it off is what makes my clock tick. But, I am big strong and good looking.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 09-11-2010, 01:55 AM   #39
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

Great thread.

Aiki-age is the number one thing I'm tackling with right now. You really have to wrap your mind around the concept of 'softness'--of course in practise, not abstractly--otherwise, you end up doing aiki-age using pure frame or even worse, shoulder muscle. I think that it has to do with the sensation of getting 'under' the other guy by allowing all the 'atoms' of your body (nice one Allen) to get pulled by gravity to create a 'gravitational' bounce that you manipulate to uproot the other guy (aiki age/rising 'energy'). It's finding a sweet spot in your body--incidentally things like standing-up right are positive byproducts in trying to find this 'sweet spot'. Aiki-age standing is the hardest because you have to learn how the pressure applied on the front side of your arms can be sunk down to the back side of your feet. Since you're working with the extremities here, aiki-age kinda forces you to think about how your body is connected not just from a skeletal angle, but also from a myofascial angle (i.e, how does the fascia wrap around itself around the body?) etc.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 09-11-2010, 07:51 AM   #40
gregstec
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
As long as the cheap seats are open ... I always find the excessive tightness in newbie shoulders make the execution trivial. Making it work on someone who knows what's up and trying to foil and still being able to pull it off is what makes my clock tick.....
Very true about the tightness in newbies - it makes it very easy to make a connection to center, but the really big and strong ones can still lock you down where you must use aiki to make it work and not subconsciously allow your muscle to come into play.

As far as playing with those of some IT skill is concerned, I agree that is where the real fun begins

Greg
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Old 09-11-2010, 05:53 PM   #41
Stormcrow34
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

I often get chastised for using "muscle" on suwari waza. Seems to me it feels right and effortless when I don't "try" to do it, but just do it as if no one is even there. I don't know if that makes any sense. My head hurts.
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Old 09-11-2010, 06:20 PM   #42
gregstec
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

Quote:
Michael Crowell wrote: View Post
I often get chastised for using "muscle" on suwari waza. Seems to me it feels right and effortless when I don't "try" to do it, but just do it as if no one is even there. I don't know if that makes any sense. My head hurts.
One of my favorite mental approaches is to do exactly the same thing - forget Uke and only focus on the movement within you; when you connect with Uke in that mode, there is no conscious effort and they just come along for the ride The hard part though is trying to ignore Uke since we are so conditioned to focus on the external attack.

Greg
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Old 09-13-2010, 05:59 PM   #43
Robert Cowham
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

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Josh Philipson wrote: View Post
Do you think this is a good way into figuring out aiki age? (i.e. just doing kokyu ho agains harder and harder holds)?
I have heard that at Kimura sensei's dojo (successor to Sagawa sensei, and author of Transparent Power), they alternate between no resistance (e.g. tens of times just lifting arms fully relaxed), and then many repetitions with full on resistance with nothing held back.
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Old 09-13-2010, 07:24 PM   #44
Eric Winters
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
As long as the cheap seats are open ... I always find the excessive tightness in newbie shoulders make the execution trivial. Making it work on someone who knows what's up and trying to foil and still being able to pull it off is what makes my clock tick. But, I am big strong and good looking.
Dude, You keep mentioning how good looking you are. I have seen you you know.
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Old 09-15-2010, 01:06 PM   #45
Rob Watson
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

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Eric Winters wrote: View Post
Dude, You keep mentioning how good looking you are. I have seen you you know.
Are you stalking me again? Just can't keep your mind and eyes off of me ... I'm even prettier on the inside! When uke looks deeply into my pretty hazel jewels they just float up and aiki age happens all by itself. Never underestimate the beguile factor.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 09-15-2010, 01:13 PM   #46
Rob Watson
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

Quote:
Robert Cowham wrote: View Post
I have heard that at Kimura sensei's dojo (successor to Sagawa sensei, and author of Transparent Power), they alternate between no resistance (e.g. tens of times just lifting arms fully relaxed), and then many repetitions with full on resistance with nothing held back.
The stronger the better, I says. Now that I've pondered a bit I don't think the shape is so important per se as long as the connection is there and one gets under ... it can look pretty ugly sometimes but still works. Kind of depends on exactly how and in which directions uke is going with the grab.

Sensei once described a practice from M. Saito in Iwama where everyone would work against a wall in the dojo doing suwariwaza kokyu dosa against the wall. Pretty quickly one finds a way to push themselves down into the mat as opposed to pushing ones self away from the wall. Seems like a good practice to isolate and eliminate some variables. Adding another person does tend to make things a bit more complex.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 09-15-2010, 01:40 PM   #47
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
The stronger the better, I says. Now that I've pondered a bit I don't think the shape is so important per se as long as the connection is there and one gets under ... it can look pretty ugly sometimes but still works. Kind of depends on exactly how and in which directions uke is going with the grab.
Hello,

In general, the "shape" (defined as the outward physical manifestation in uke) is up in some manner. aiki age = rising energy. So, in some way, yeah, I agree that the "shape" is not so important.

However, I do disagree with your last sentence. It really shouldn't matter how, where, or in which direction uke is grabbing, striking, holding, etc. aiki age as a principle of energy rising should happen whenever, wherever, however uke comes into physical contact with tori/nage/etc.

The "shape" should really just be the "effect" on uke when uke comes into contact with the principle of aiki age in tori/nage/etc. aiki age is within tori/nage/etc. The "shape" is how uke reacts.

Quote:
Josh Philipson wrote:
Do you think this is a good way into figuring out aiki age? (i.e. just doing kokyu ho agains harder and harder holds)?
Everything in progression. Why train against very hard holds if you just automatically resist with muscle? Work to the point of failure and work through it, progressively pushing your point of failure farther.
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Old 09-15-2010, 10:08 PM   #48
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

1/ Akuzawa
/2 Akuzawa
/3 Endo
/4 Ueshiba Morihei
/5 Ueshiba Kisshomaru
/6 Okamoto

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 09-15-2010 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 09-15-2010, 10:12 PM   #49
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

good post Lorel
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Old 09-16-2010, 03:41 AM   #50
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?

Thank you for posting.
Could you be so kind to explain, what you want to express?
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