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Old 07-25-2010, 06:15 PM   #1
Keith Larman
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MRSA, infections, etc.

Yeah, yeah, another post on this from the guy obsessed with infection control (get a persistent infection that was nearly impossible to kill from training and you'd be a nut too).

Anyway... MRSA (Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus) and related evil bugs are a persistent and increasing problem in hospitals, assisted living homes, gyms, and yes, increasingly seen in places like martial arts schools. For more info in general, look > here on the Mayo Clinic website.< Good info there.

Anyway, ran into something new (to me) recently. Our oldest dog acquired a nasty skin infection very recently from which she is still recovering with the help of massive antibiotics, etc. One thing we are using is a product called Vetericyn, a wound and infection treatment spray. You soak the wound area and the stuff basically mirrors the body's natural methods of attacking bacteria, yeast, spores, virus (virii?), fungus, etc. There are no known drug interactions and the stuff appears to be safe even if ingested or if it gets into the eyes. Another benefit is that it can be sprayed directly on a nasty, weeping wound. And it helps at all stages of healing.

This active ingredient in the Veterinarian formulation is also widely used in hospitals. There are RX versions of the stuff for dermatological and surgical applications. There is also a spray and gel which is available OTC. The active ingredient is Microcyn. Information available here.

Using the vet version on our dog's rather large nasty wound has been amazing to watch. Of course this is just one anecdote. However, the description of the product shows an impressive anti-bacterial action especially with some really nasty stuff like MRSA, etc.

Just wanted to post on the topic so it would be out there for future reference.

Just fwiw.

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Old 07-25-2010, 07:50 PM   #2
Janet Rosen
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Re: MRSA, infections, etc.

Keith, many thanks for the links. (and yeah correctly its "virii" but try and get any company to confuse the public with grammatical accuracy :-) )

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 08-03-2010, 07:54 PM   #3
Janet Rosen
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Re: MRSA, infections, etc.

Well, time for the empirical testing... I've gotten two horrible bites, not sure if giant mosquito or moderate spider, that are not healing as I'd like w/ my usual combo of herbal & western stuff, so I just ordered some online. Report to follow.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 08-03-2010, 10:50 PM   #4
Keith Larman
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Re: MRSA, infections, etc.

Gotta say (and it is anecdotal of course) after a week of using the spray on what was a massively infected, weeping area on our dog's abdomen it is nearly completely cleared. I talked with a friend who is a "horse person" and they use it constantly on scrapes, etc. on their horses. They swear the stuff has significantly reduced their need to go to the vet, antibiotics, etc. Any sign of any sort of cut/scrape/infection and they give it a spray a couple times a day. They say most now heal normally without the need to go to antibiotics which was not the case before.

Don't know how it would work with insect bites, however.

I accidentally sprayed some in my own eye (trying to spray the less than happy dog and I was fumbling -- yeah, stupid). No sting, no irritation, no nothing. Felt like water.

FWIW two quotes I found in a vet pamphlet on the vetercyn version of the stuff. Thought they were good.

Quote:
Vetericyn is an oxychlorine compound similar to that produced by the animal's own immune system. Oxychlorine compounds are released by neutrophils, which are the most abundant type of white blood cells in the immune system. Neutrophils use oxychlorine compounds to attack and kill pathogens. Vetericyn is a similar pathogen fighting solution that can be applied locally to an infection site. In-vitroresults show that Vetericyn can safely kill 99.9999% of most single-cell pathogens within 30 seconds of contact or less, including tenacious pathogens like MRSA, staph and pseudomonas.
and

Quote:
Single cell pathogens cannot self-regulate their oxygen content and, when exposed to the oxidative burst of neutrophils, it is literally obliterated. Yet mammalian cells can regulate their oxygen content. Vetericyn, mimicking the oxidative burst of neutrophils, devastates single cell pathogens yet does not harm healthy tissue.

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Old 08-05-2010, 07:56 AM   #5
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Re: MRSA, infections, etc.

cool thanks for sharing that.
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Old 09-03-2010, 08:11 PM   #6
Rob Watson
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Re: MRSA, infections, etc.

The August 27, 2010 Science has an article about MRSA jumping from pigs to humans (not to mention cattle, dogs and cats).

The scary part is the MSRA is readily able to 'swap' the resistance genes with other bacteria so it becomes more virulent, more transmissible and more difficult to treat.

FYI: In 2005 ~18,650 deaths from MSRA in the U.S. (that is more than AIDS/HIV).

MSRA occurs in many different strains and it is best not to confuse them. The really troubling strain occurs in hospitals and is the big killer. The 'community' strain is acquired outside of hospitals (prison, contact sports and family members, etc) is rapidly acquiring the resistance genes and becoming worse.

Not to forget that S. aureas is everywhere and not all is the MRSA variety. But a word of caution is the proclivity for these beasties to swap genes coupled with their generic ubiquity does tend to give one pause.

Stock up on Hibiclense (our local pharmacies have it) and Vetericyn (we have some always on hand for our bunnies) and use liberally. Non-antibiotic bug killers do not contribute to the resistance problem.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 09-03-2010, 08:30 PM   #7
Janet Rosen
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Re: MRSA, infections, etc.

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Not to forget that S. aureas is everywhere and not all is the MRSA variety. But a word of caution is the proclivity for these beasties to swap genes coupled with their generic ubiquity does tend to give one pause.

Stock up on Hibiclense (our local pharmacies have it) and Vetericyn (we have some always on hand for our bunnies) and use liberally. Non-antibiotic bug killers do not contribute to the resistance problem.
Been using Vetericyn, easily bought at our local feed store; the hydrogel version very effective for wound healing.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 09-04-2010, 08:40 AM   #8
Keith Larman
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Re: MRSA, infections, etc.

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Been using Vetericyn, easily bought at our local feed store; the hydrogel version very effective for wound healing.
Yup, been using it on all my cuts, scrapes, etc., especially since I'm a cut magnet doing sword work. Works wonders. Everything heals quickly and "quietly".

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Old 09-05-2010, 07:17 AM   #9
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Re: MRSA, infections, etc.

Add me to the list -- I came up with something early last week that I didn't identify at first...but then I remembered glancing at these threads and said, "Hmm, I wonder..." Given the placement (underside of the jaw on one side, and one wrist and hand), the timing, the techniques we've been doing lately, and everything else, I'm 99% confident I picked it up at the dojo -- and given the symptoms, it sure looks like staph. Of course, I figured this out on Friday afternoon, at which point everyone in Massachusetts (except those at my company, apparently) had left work and were hiding from the hurricane. Antibiotic ointment didn't seem to do anything, and there's nothing OTC to deal with it directly, but a pharmacist suggested Hibiclens to keep the area clean and keep it from spreading. So, I've been scrubbing with Hibiclens in the shower since then, and things seem to be getting a whole lot better (before that they were going downhill rapidly). I've also been tossing all towels and washcloths straight into a hot-water wash with bleach after a single use, washed all my gis with bleach (with special attention to the collars and ends of sleeves), and put bandaids with antibiotic ointment over the smaller sores (mostly to prevent the urge to scratch, which has been maddening at times). At this rate, by the time my doctor's rather lackadaisical office staff shows up for wok on Tuesday, this may be largely resolved -- but I'm going to get this looked at anyway. I'm also going to become a fanatic about scrubbing arms up to the elbow with Dettol as soon as I get off the mat in the future
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Old 09-05-2010, 09:17 AM   #10
Keith Larman
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Re: MRSA, infections, etc.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Add me to the list -- I came up with something early last week that I didn't identify at first...
You may be able to find veterycin at one of your local pet stores. The first bottle we bought was off the shelf at the little neighborhood family run pet store a half mile or so from our house. Again the "human version" is Microcyn, but sadly enough that's harder to find than the Vetericyn in my experience. Pet stores are open weekends and sometimes on less major holidays.

The nice thing is that you can spray an area periodically between your hibiclens washings. And the stuff is also commonly used to lightly soak dressings put over the infected areas. I find myself putting a little of the Vetericyn gel on the dressing area of bandages over any cut or scrape I get. No infections since I started doing that. I haven't opened the topical antibiotic goop in months. Same with the kid and she's a knee scrape-o-matic being a soccer fanatic.

Yeah, I'm sold on the stuff.

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Old 09-05-2010, 09:25 AM   #11
Keith Larman
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Re: MRSA, infections, etc.

Mary:

Forgot one other thing I was going to say.

When our kid picked up a skin infection a while back (all over the skin of her legs), the pediatrician recommended a couple long soaks in a bleach bath. Yes, I did a classic Hollywood double-take when it was said too. The advice was a very warm bath with 1 cup of bleach. Rather than dip my kid into it, I went on-line and read up. Sure enough it is a legit treatment for many bacterial skin infections. But I still went first plopping myself into a bleach bath just to make sure before soaking my child in it. Anyway, it worked wonders for her as well. Spend about 20 minutes in it. It's like laying in a slightly over-chlorinated pool. What happens is that the warm water/bleach solution is just strong enough to kill most bacteria without doing any real damage to your skin (other than really drying things out). The long soak allows your skin to absorb it (can you say "wrinkled prune-skin") letting the bleach get *really* deep into the infected areas. It is now an increasingly common treatment for children with eczema. Apparently eczema is greatly aggravated by opportunistic infections. They find a vastly higher incidence of things like staph present in patients with eczema due to the constant scratching and irritation. Which only compounds the problem. But in children where they added a small bit of bleach to the water at bathtime there was a dramatic reduction in severity.

You might try just soaking those areas affected if you can. Or the full bath. Obviously get thee to an expert and who the hell am I anyway are important points too...

Best of luck.

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Old 09-05-2010, 01:25 PM   #12
Janet Rosen
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Re: MRSA, infections, etc.

The only thing I'll add is that there is no reason to "wash in hot water" unless you are trying to kill actual insects, in which case super hot water and drier are effective. For cleaning clothing research is cold water is just as effective in modern machines as warm or hot, and hot water in a easing machine does not affect microrganisms, so we may as well save power and money where we can!

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-06-2010, 11:42 AM   #13
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: MRSA, infections, etc.

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
The only thing I'll add is that there is no reason to "wash in hot water" unless you are trying to kill actual insects, in which case super hot water and drier are effective. For cleaning clothing research is cold water is just as effective in modern machines as warm or hot, and hot water in a easing machine does not affect microrganisms, so we may as well save power and money where we can!
Doesn't seem to be true for my sweaty t-shirts? If I don't wash them in 60 C (140 F) they keep smelling sweaty. The same applies to kitchen towels, they develop a nasty smell if I don't wash them hot, at least every second time I wash them. Obviously I could bleach the towels, but I'd prefer not to bleach the t-shirts in nice colours...

kvaak
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Old 09-06-2010, 12:53 PM   #14
Janet Rosen
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Re: MRSA, infections, etc.

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote: View Post
Doesn't seem to be true for my sweaty t-shirts? If I don't wash them in 60 C (140 F) they keep smelling sweaty. The same applies to kitchen towels, they develop a nasty smell if I don't wash them hot, at least every second time I wash them. Obviously I could bleach the towels, but I'd prefer not to bleach the t-shirts in nice colours...

kvaak
Pauliina
Definitely a case of YMMV then - I switched to cold water wash over a yr ago, and the only laundry bleach I use is non-chlorine (basically hydrogen peroxide). The only problem I've noted is that I sometimes have to use pre-wash stain remover twice. Whether I hang stuff out to dry or use the electric drier (in cold wet weather) there's never been any unwanted odors.

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-07-2010, 05:55 PM   #15
Rob Watson
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Re: MRSA, infections, etc.

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
there's never been any unwanted odors.
Some of us are much more stinky than others. Don't even ask the wife about last night!

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 09-08-2010, 02:59 AM   #16
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: MRSA, infections, etc.

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Some of us are much more stinky than others. ...
Well, it's a lot about what you eat and drink. And how you live. This helps to steer it a little.
But it's also inherited from the ancestors to a certain extent.

Anyway. I differs on a wide scale from person to person.
Same with using bleech or not.
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