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Old 09-03-2010, 02:41 AM   #1
Carsten Möllering
 
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kubi nage

(Referring to the ai hanmi tenchi nage thread few day ago.)

Finally found a clip of what we call "kubi nage":

Please watch the practioner on the right from 0:55 on.

Do you know and do this technique?

Carsten
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Old 09-03-2010, 05:18 AM   #2
James Edwards
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Re: kubi nage

The head throw? Yea, we've come across it but I think it's seldom practiced since it can be quite dangerous if the students don't know what they're doing.
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Old 09-03-2010, 06:43 AM   #3
Marc Abrams
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Re: kubi nage

The head throw is dangerous and very effective for that reason. The punch "throw" before that was silly in that nobody I know would leave a straight arm out there after throwing a punch. I call that the "night of the living dead uke practice."

Marc Abrams
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Old 09-03-2010, 07:47 AM   #4
WilliB
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Re: kubi nage

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
(Referring to the ai hanmi tenchi nage thread few day ago.)

Finally found a clip of what we call "kubi nage":

Please watch the practioner on the right from 0:55 on.

Do you know and do this technique?

Carsten
I have seen it, in particular at the AKI place in Yokohama. It is not part the regular schedule in my dojo; occasionally they something like that, but in a very mellowed down version.

I havent heard a particular name for it; what we call kubinage is something else. The name of course makes sense for this too.
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Old 09-03-2010, 09:39 AM   #5
Shannon Frye
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Re: kubi nage

I've come across 3 different variations, all of which are called Kubi- nage. 2 involve nage facing the same direction as uke (as in the video). The 3rd is more of a 'head twist' while facing uke. But these have all been in juijitsu or judo settings.

"In the end there can be only one"

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Old 09-03-2010, 11:51 AM   #6
Adam Huss
 
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Re: kubi nage

I've always called that kubinage as well. I've heard other terms for it, but can't recall what they are as I don't use them regularly.

The technique a couple after that we call kubishime...but we also use kubishime for an attack. Gotta love those generic names!

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Old 09-03-2010, 11:52 AM   #7
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Re: kubi nage

...its not something that's in our actual testing curriculum though, but so are a lot of things we are taught.

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Old 09-04-2010, 03:38 AM   #8
WilliB
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Re: kubi nage

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
I've always called that kubinage as well. I've heard other terms for it, but can't recall what they are as I don't use them regularly.

The technique a couple after that we call kubishime...but we also use kubishime for an attack. Gotta love those generic names!
Kubishime means strangling, so that is another vague term.
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Old 09-04-2010, 05:26 AM   #9
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: kubi nage

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
The technique a couple after that we call kubishime...but we also use kubishime for an attack.
Yes.
"Ushiro katate dori kubi shime" is one of the "regular" attacks in our aikido.
And exactly the same form is also the way of doing irimi nage in tanto dori, jodori, jonage and tachi dori.
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Old 09-04-2010, 10:17 PM   #10
Michael Varin
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Re: kubi nage

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote:
Gotta love those generic names!
I come from an Iwama background... you should see how many things we call kokyu nage.

For instance, all of the above mentioned throws

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 09-07-2010, 03:14 PM   #11
Lan Powers
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Re: kubi nage

Our term for the throw in question has always been Men-nage.
Men=head, nage, (of course) =throw
I have always liked all the various names for techniques...it is interesting to hear all the different variations.
HEY! I know that throw!!

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Old 09-07-2010, 03:46 PM   #12
Adam Huss
 
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Re: kubi nage

Here is an example of a form of kubinage...please skip to around 1:20 in clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySOix7gzx1A

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Old 09-07-2010, 05:33 PM   #13
Chris Farnham
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Re: kubi nage

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
I come from an Iwama background... you should see how many things we call kokyu nage.

For instance, all of the above mentioned throws
While I don't really come from an Iwama background, I have practiced in Iwama a few times, and I am pretty sure that I have heard the "Head Throw" referred to as kubinage by people in Iwama , but I could be wrong...but I also noticed that there is a whole series of Kokyu nage techniques that vary widely. I believe that Inagaki Sensei likes to cover them all together as a single unit...or at least he was doing it that way one of the times I stayed there.
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Old 09-07-2010, 06:31 PM   #14
Aikilove
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Re: kubi nage

I'm certainly from an Iwama background and I've always referred to it as kubinage.

Saito shows a couple of them at hombudojo just month after the founders death:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh8P1N9GKUQ

first around 0:20 and then dissect it at 0:50 and onward.

/J

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 09-08-2010, 12:55 AM   #15
WilliB
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Re: kubi nage

Quote:
Lan Powers wrote: View Post
Our term for the throw in question has always been Men-nage.
Men=head, nage, (of course) =throw
I have always liked all the various names for techniques...it is interesting to hear all the different variations.
HEY! I know that throw!!
Quibble: "Men" does not mean head, it means front side or surface.
I have never heard of men-nage, but of course there are all sorts of names floating out there.
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Old 09-08-2010, 01:41 AM   #16
Michael Varin
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Re: kubi nage

Jakob,

Great video of Saito. I'd never seen that footage before. Thanks for posting it.

The throw at 0:20 looks like a kaiten nage to me. The latter ones I remember being called kokyu nage, but they may well be called kubi nage. Those things do change over the years, and of course, memories vary.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 09-08-2010, 02:18 AM   #17
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: kubi nage

Quote:
Willi Brix wrote: View Post
... of course there are all sorts of names floating out there.
Yes, that's true.

But it's kind of interesting, to notice that those names are not random but follow systems.

So there are certain styles or also certain lines of tradition within a style, which use certain names.

You have the wide range from calling "nearly every technique" kokyu nage in ki-aikido (at least the line of Yoshigasaki which is representative here in Germany) to naming the same technique in different ways with every form of attack in koryu yawara.
This is not only about names, but it shows the underlying understanding.

Or you can discuss whether rokyo (Saito Sensei) is a own technique following own principles or whether it is a certain form of nikyo ura (some aikikai teachers). The name isn't just a name, but helps to understand what is done in this waza.

Or see the discussions about ikkajo / ikkyo and kokyu ho / kokyu dosa / aiki age in this forum.

And so on.

Like always in life the names and the nomenclature, wich shows the system of the techniques, leads to a certain understanding of what is named.

It's not worth to quarrel and struggle but it's worth understanding, I think.

Carsten
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Old 09-08-2010, 06:47 AM   #18
Don_Modesto
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Re: kubi nage

FWIW: http://www.coolrain.com/3.html

Lost Techniques
Item# AT-LT - $29.95

Expand your knowledge of the foundations of O'Sensei's Aikido. Including:

* Aiki-Otoshi

--------* Men-Nage--------

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* Hiji-Waza
o Osae
o Nage
o Kime
* Ude-Garame
* Juji-Garame

Don J. Modesto
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------------------------
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Old 09-08-2010, 02:35 PM   #19
Lan Powers
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Re: kubi nage

Quote:
Willi Brix wrote: View Post
Quibble: "Men" does not mean head, it means front side or surface.
I have never heard of men-nage, but of course there are all sorts of names floating out there.
Huh,
That means I am interpreting shomenuchi wrong as well then..
( I don't doubt that it is so, just didn't know)
Shomen uchi-uchi=strike, Men= head (I thought) and Sho= front
(In this context)
Strike to the front side of the head
I wonder what the literal translation is?

So, "strike to the front-side" for shomenuchi?
That would explain the confusion on the term for the head throw also.
Thanks!

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
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Old 09-08-2010, 10:57 PM   #20
WilliB
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Re: kubi nage

Quote:
Lan Powers wrote: View Post
Huh,
That means I am interpreting shomenuchi wrong as well then..
( I don't doubt that it is so, just didn't know)
Shomen uchi-uchi=strike, Men= head (I thought) and Sho= front
(In this context)
Strike to the front side of the head
I wonder what the literal translation is?

So, "strike to the front-side" for shomenuchi?
That would explain the confusion on the term for the head throw also.
Thanks!
Yes. "Shoumen" would literally mean "front surface". (And "yokoumen" diagonal surface.) There is no literal "head" in there.

Just to muddle the waters more, if you use a different Kanji, then "men" means cotton...
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Old 09-09-2010, 10:34 PM   #21
niall
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Re: kubi nage

The primary meaning of men 面 is face and by extension mask (as used in noh or kendo, for example).

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Old 09-10-2010, 01:30 AM   #22
niall
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Re: kubi nage

In other budo there doesn't seem to be any confusion about what kubi nage is - it's basically all the same technique. It's a throw from a controlling headlock. The judo version here is a slight variation (from tai otoshi with an extended leg); the sambo and BJJ variations are orthodox koshi waza (koshi nage in aikido).

judo http://www.judo-connexion.com/techni...kubi-nage.aspx

sumo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LHUSnqva5Q
(go straight to 4.30 or you'll get a headache from the camerawork)

sambo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbQREzCICcU

BJJ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a6ZjuqeCwo&p

Last edited by niall : 09-10-2010 at 01:34 AM.

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Old 09-10-2010, 02:52 AM   #23
WilliB
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Re: kubi nage

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
In other budo there doesn't seem to be any confusion about what kubi nage is - it's basically all the same technique. It's a throw from a controlling headlock. The judo version here is a slight variation (from tai otoshi with an extended leg); the sambo and BJJ variations are orthodox koshi waza (koshi nage in aikido).

judo http://www.judo-connexion.com/techni...kubi-nage.aspx

sumo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LHUSnqva5Q
(go straight to 4.30 or you'll get a headache from the camerawork)

sambo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbQREzCICcU

BJJ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a6ZjuqeCwo&p
I can´t see the judo video, but the illustration looks like what I call koshi-guruma in judo.
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Old 09-10-2010, 03:34 AM   #24
niall
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Re: kubi nage

You might need to install microsoft silverlight to watch the video. You're right Willi the difference between those two throws seems to be very subtle if it exists. It's probably just whether the emphasis is on the neck control or not.
.
http://judoforum.com/index.php?/topic/10864-kubi-nage/

http://judoforum.com/index.php?/topi...rance-between/

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
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Old 09-10-2010, 07:41 AM   #25
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Re: kubi nage

[quote=Niall Matthews;264341]In other budo there doesn't seem to be any confusion about what kubi nage is - it's basically all the same technique. It's a throw from a controlling headlock. The judo version here is a slight variation (from tai otoshi with an extended leg); the sambo and BJJ variations are orthodox koshi waza (koshi nage in aikido).

judo http://www.judo-connexion.com/techni...kubi-nage.aspx

In Yoseikan Budo, kubi nage is the Judo version described here. Basically it's tai otoshi from a headlock.
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