Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-18-2010, 11:32 AM   #1
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Yin-Yang and Store-and-Release and Hara

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Go right ahead. That store and release model is not as universal as you make it out to be across the board, It would also never fly with more informed sources. Again we can go back to certain core principles, but they can be expressed in different ways.
Just to clarify a point in relation to the thread on "Paths that lead to internal power", maybe it's worth saying something about Yin-Yang, In-Yo, Ki, etc.

When Ueshiba, Tohei, et al, 'demonstrate their ki', the essence of what they're showing has to do with a special connectivity of the body (not the artificial one that most people display when they're trying to demonstrate "connectivity"). Without going into a lengthy exposition about why this aspect of "ki" is related to breath training, demonstrations of jin/kokyu (the 'breath' of kokyu refers to the breathing training adjunct of jin/kokyu-forces), let me just focus on the connectivity aspect as I make these comments.

Any movement in which actually uses full-blown 'ki' (not just some aspects of jin/kokyu-power) goes through a cycle of store-and-release, whether that store-and-release is done fast/explosively or is done as part of a slow (but complete, ki-wise) movement. That is the essence of what Yin-Yang refers to, BTW. Even a breath goes through a store-and-release, a Yin-Yang movement. Someone using full-blown ki/qi uses the body as a whole unit in which areas of the ki/qi contract while other areas expand and go into a form of relaxed tensile connectivity. Control of these areas is done at the Hara/dantien, which of course draws power from the ground and gravity, as I've mentioned before (think Heaven, Earth, Man).

A very rough example can be made using an exaggerated but simple raising and dropping of a sword in suburi. The exaggeration would be that we start (for this example) leaning slightly forward before we raise the sword. Leaving out the jin/kokyu forces and the actions of the dantien/hara, we have the back side of the ki/qi connection contracting or "relaxing back toward normal". As the body raises (and the sword raises) the slight tension in the back begins to be replaced by an increasing tension in the front... so the down-swing of the sword utilizes the elastic store of the front, but that "release" to the front means that the back again goes into a "store". Front goes to back goes to front goes to back, etc. Yin-Yang. Breath accompanies this movement, so breath is a part of all movement and helps train the Ki.

The sword swing example is a gross movement, but throughout all movements in a properly connected body (the ki is not 'blocked' so the whole-body's power goes everywhere), there is this interchange of ki/qi connection and 'tensions'. I.e., the interplay of "store and release" is ubiquitous. Are there other ways to do things? Sure, but they're not really aspects of the Yin-Yang, hara, etc., type of movement that Ueshiba was referring to.

Incidentally, here's Chen Xiaowang explaining these same interactions throughout the body, although he simply uses the word "qi", so to someone not understanding the relations I mentioned above, it just sounds like some mystical flow of "energy".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnePBBnt1kc

FWIW

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 03:44 AM   #2
Blake Holtzen
Location: Florida
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 33
Offline
Re: Yin-Yang and Store-and-Release and Hara

Hi Mike,

Great post. I have a question that is somewhat of a sideline to the topic. Chen Xiaowang seems to always give demonstrations for the group that he is instructing. But the main demo he seems to always use is the 6-8 person push line with him in a low bow-and-arrow stance. He is using his back leg as a brace. Is this really that impressive of a demonstration?

I imagine that, as long as he has been practicing, he could do a better demo of jin skills than a leg brace against a number of people pushing. But, maybe he is catering to the level of the crowd. Could you shed any light on this?

Thanks!

-Blake
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 04:21 AM   #3
jss
Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Yin-Yang and Store-and-Release and Hara

Quote:
Blake Holtzen wrote: View Post
Chen Xiaowang seems to always give demonstrations for the group that he is instructing. But the main demo he seems to always use is the 6-8 person push line with him in a low bow-and-arrow stance. He is using his back leg as a brace. Is this really that impressive of a demonstration?
What's your definition of a brace? Chen Xiaowang also resists a push form one person while standing on one leg. Assuming the method he uses to resist such a push is the same as when being pushed by several people, I don't think it qualifies as 'bracing'.

Link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldH40uF_f28

Quote:
I imagine that, as long as he has been practicing, he could do a better demo of jin skills than a leg brace against a number of people pushing.
What kind of jin skills do you have in mind? Unbalancing people without overt movement?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 09:45 AM   #4
jss
Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Yin-Yang and Store-and-Release and Hara

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
What kind of jin skills do you have in mind? Unbalancing people without overt movement?
Not my smartest comment in relation to the video I linked to. Oh well.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2010, 05:16 PM   #5
Blake Holtzen
Location: Florida
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 33
Offline
Re: Yin-Yang and Store-and-Release and Hara

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
What's your definition of a brace? Chen Xiaowang also resists a push form one person while standing on one leg. Assuming the method he uses to resist such a push is the same as when being pushed by several people, I don't think it qualifies as 'bracing'.

Link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldH40uF_f28

What kind of jin skills do you have in mind? Unbalancing people without overt movement?
Hello Joep,

I have seen the video you linked to and still wasn't impressed. Don't misunderstand what I am saying though. I am a big fan of Chen Xiaowang. However, I imagine he could do better jin/kokyu demos if he chose to.

The standing on one leg demo that he did is more of a trick because of two reasons. One, he is crouched and leaning into the pusher. Two, he is using his arms to get under and "connect with the pusher's structure" to negate/lessen the force. This is a good skill but I don't know if it is uber high level for the caliber of martial artist that Chen Xiaowang is.

Chris Hein Sensei shows these skills in one of his videos : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT3wkxr0Jq4

Good stuff, but I guess I'm expecting more from the widely accepted Grandmaster of Chen Taiji.

Once again, the purpose of my post is to ask why he doesn't show higher level jin skill demos. Is it the chinese fetish with secrecy?

Take Care!

-Blake
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2010, 10:28 AM   #6
jss
Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Yin-Yang and Store-and-Release and Hara

Quote:
Blake Holtzen wrote: View Post
I am a big fan of Chen Xiaowang. However, I imagine he could do better jin/kokyu demos if he chose to.
Ok, specifically what better demos do you have in mind? Not that I'm here to defend Chen Xiaowang, but do you have something specific in mind or do you just watch the video and think "If that's one of the standard bearers Chen Tai Chi, he should be able to do something more impressive."

Quote:
The standing on one leg demo that he did is more of a trick because of two reasons. One, he is crouched and leaning into the pusher.
I don't expect him to lean and don't really see him doing any leaning either. (His upper body is bent forward, though.) So perhaps he does some leaning and perhaps he doesn't. We won't be able to settle this one over the internet, I'm afraid. The two of us in a room with Chen Xiaowang, however...

Quote:
Two, he is using his arms to get under and "connect with the pusher's structure" to negate/lessen the force. This is a good skill but I don't know if it is uber high level for the caliber of martial artist that Chen Xiaowang is.
So you expect him to be able to resist a bigger force without using such tricks?
Secondly, although the connecting to the pusher's structure, I don't think it's the main point of the trick to negate/lessen the force of the pusher. I can also connect to the pusher's structure and strengthen his push, for instance.

Quote:
Chris Hein Sensei shows these skills in one of his videos : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT3wkxr0Jq4
That video was posted and discussed on Aikiweb earlier. As I had to look it up, might as well post the link: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=255040.
I don't think Chris Hein and Chen Xiaowang are using the same skills, although the results are relatively similar. Chris Hein holds his body more rigid than Chen Xiaowang. That's also in line with Chris Hein's mentioning structure in contrast with Chen Xiaowang's explanations based on qi and winding. That might seem to be a small difference, but in fact it is not.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2010, 12:15 AM   #7
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
Offline
Re: Yin-Yang and Store-and-Release and Hara

Quote:
Blake Holtzen wrote: View Post
Hi Mike,

Great post. I have a question that is somewhat of a sideline to the topic. Chen Xiaowang seems to always give demonstrations for the group that he is instructing. But the main demo he seems to always use is the 6-8 person push line with him in a low bow-and-arrow stance. He is using his back leg as a brace. Is this really that impressive of a demonstration?

I imagine that, as long as he has been practicing, he could do a better demo of jin skills than a leg brace against a number of people pushing. But, maybe he is catering to the level of the crowd. Could you shed any light on this?

Thanks!

-Blake
It's a contrived demo that looks impressive. That's kinda the point. So, whatever makes the demo work is probably fair game. Why wouldn't you line your ducks up in a row?

The problem comes when folks see one aspect and think 'aha, that's the trick!'. There's a finite, hard physics limit to what bracing can get you (hey, let's give that a name...say...'torque' ) so obviously there are other (more interesting) things to watch. Which depends on the audience - ie: I'm sure he'd show different stuff - with different levels of refinement - to different crowds (maybe)

BTW - it's not impossible that the trick is structured like that so as to be misleading; why tell everyone how to do it?

In the end, it's just a demo. Frankly, I wouldn't put too much stock into standing like the rock of Gebralta as the zennith of any skill. I 100% guarantee I can knock anyone a$$ over tea kettle using my car

Last edited by bob_stra : 08-25-2010 at 12:21 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2010, 12:38 AM   #8
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
Offline
Re: Yin-Yang and Store-and-Release and Hara

In any case, I'm not sure what would make for a 'better' demo, seeing that most folks wouldn't know what they're looking at. Nor would that be educationally useful (steal this technique, wise).

OTOH, because we can see the (gross) level mechanics of the 'braced push' (and can somewhat catagorize them), that opens things up for a discussion on 'well, apart from the obvious, what is he doing and how is it done'? After all, if this is a leading exponent of the skill/s in question, it might pay to scrutinize what he's doing

ICBW. YMMV
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2010, 09:14 AM   #9
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Aikido
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 928
United_States
Offline
Re: Yin-Yang and Store-and-Release and Hara

Yeah, I dunno - I think there's good things to watch in the demo as well as an ongoing caveat of "have to feel hands on to know better" . .

My own personal thing with CXW is that there's a guy that has hit me harder than anyone else ever (as in nobody has come close - funny thing was that part of my own fault at the time was attempting to "ground it" ouch) has said that your best option to deal with a CXW is to run . . that's a good enough place holder that if I ever do get hands on time with CXW, I shall be uber respectful while I "listen" like hell to try to figure out what he's doing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2010, 11:20 AM   #10
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 692
Offline
Re: Yin-Yang and Store-and-Release and Hara

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
... there's a guy that has hit me harder than anyone else ever (as in nobody has come close - funny thing was that part of my own fault at the time was attempting to "ground it" ouch)
Budd, what should you have done...say....other than run??
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2010, 11:26 AM   #11
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
Offline
Re: Yin-Yang and Store-and-Release and Hara

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
My own personal thing with CXW is that there's a guy that has hit me harder than anyone else ever (as in nobody has come close - funny thing was that part of my own fault at the time was attempting to "ground it" ouch)
Budd - are you also in the habit of licking batteries to see if there's still juice in there?

Anyway, before this unravels (further), I think the topic at hand was store and release using the hara (and not mad-cap antics and death defying feats), so back to that Bat channel

Last edited by bob_stra : 08-25-2010 at 11:30 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2010, 04:00 PM   #12
Alfonso
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 346
Offline
Re: Yin-Yang and Store-and-Release and Hara

on our last episode, the man was being filmed at night communing with nature

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw7OKN7FTmE&NR=1#t=5m14s

just to mention that Ueshiba and Yin Yang and Ki mentioned in the same breath is not bonkers

Alfonso Adriasola
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2010, 04:15 PM   #13
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,751
United_States
Offline
Re: Yin-Yang and Store-and-Release and Hara

Quote:
Alfonso Adriasola wrote: View Post
on our last episode, the man was being filmed at night communing with nature

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw7OKN7FTmE&NR=1#t=5m14s

just to mention that Ueshiba and Yin Yang and Ki mentioned in the same breath is not bonkers
what kind of wacko nut job would go out in the middle of the night and beat up on some defenseless tree? i am calling the LEO. folks like that are a menace to all the tree-kind.

say anyone know how to keep the dew off your body? it kinda colder at night and hard to whack the tree, i mean.., communing with nature along with nature call. it's not for me, but for a friend, really!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2010, 05:29 PM   #14
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,504
United_States
Offline
Re: Yin-Yang and Store-and-Release and Hara

Quote:
Josh Philipson wrote: View Post
Budd, what should you have done...say....other than run??
I think Mike Sigman has explained that this is the source of the "hopping" kind of exit a lot of tai chi people make from push-hands encounters. If you ground that kind of force, it can seriously hurt you, but if you "hop" back from it, you don't take it all into your body. And then, of course, from there, the "hopping" evolves into the crazy gyrations you see in some of the goofier demoes available on YouTube or wherever CMA is "sold".


David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2010, 06:15 PM   #15
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,909
Spain
Offline
Re: Yin-Yang and Store-and-Release and Hara

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
what kind of wacko nut job would go out in the middle of the night and beat up on some defenseless tree? i am calling the LEO. folks like that are a menace to all the tree-kind.
Defenseless?. The tree is wearing do and tare. Surely it has a shinai hidden somewhere.

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2010, 04:20 PM   #16
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Yin-Yang and Store-and-Release and Hara

Quote:
Alfonso Adriasola wrote: View Post
on our last episode, the man was being filmed at night communing with nature

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw7OKN7FTmE&NR=1#t=5m14s

just to mention that Ueshiba and Yin Yang and Ki mentioned in the same breath is not bonkers
Is it just my imagination, or that jo has a sharp end and a blunt one?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2010, 05:46 PM   #17
Alfonso
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 346
Offline
Re: Yin-Yang and Store-and-Release and Hara

well... like the guy says, the spear is so fast that it seems like a blur, and the film is so grainy it doesnt so great... but it must have been a better made one than mine. Tried something like that (well it went on longer than once) against a tree (big palm , can take it ) and broke all of mine :-( , jo , bokken, bo.. maybe it did have a pointy end but he wasnt shaking the thing exactly either

Alfonso Adriasola
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:05 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate