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Old 08-28-2010, 11:11 AM   #126
Scott Burke
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

Hey man, I hear you totally. The Internet is a blunt tool at best in trying to explain one's ideas. Especially with a 12 hour time lag.

My pet theory was merely that, an interesting possibility to explain the some of the more far-out sounding visions claimed by O'Sensei.

And speaking of hash, I wasn't going to harp on this, but you did mistake the date on which the Manchurian light show occurred by nearly 20 years. So perhaps you could be a little less forceful in the future when pointing out the mistakes of others. Please don't think of this as snark, just well intended advice, freely given.

Have a good weekend,
Scott
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Old 08-28-2010, 11:35 AM   #127
David Orange
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

Quote:
Scott Burke wrote: View Post
My pet theory was merely that, an interesting possibility to explain the some of the more far-out sounding visions claimed by O'Sensei.
I might have found it more interesting had it been backed up with any kind of evidence or reasoning.

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Scott Burke wrote: View Post
And speaking of hash, I wasn't going to harp on this, but you did mistake the date on which the Manchurian light show occurred by nearly 20 years.
Which I did admit when Demetrio pointed it out.

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Scott Burke wrote: View Post
So perhaps you could be a little less forceful in the future when pointing out the mistakes of others.
Well, you only get back what you give--as in aikido. Such careless reading as to draw the conclusion that Morihei Ueshiba was obese is bound to get some strong negative feedback. And to imagine that Ueshiba could have done all that he did while suffering brain or nerve damage is on the same level if supported by careless interpretation of the historical record.

That casts doubt not only on your understanding of Ueshiba, but also of the science you referenced and on your good will to Morihei himself.

Another thing, and very important, is that we have people on this board who can read the historical record and conclude from it that Morihei was literally obese. Next thing you know, they'll be telling other people that Morihei was an idiot savant whose skill resulted from brain damage...

We have to be careful if only for that reason.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 08-28-2010, 02:21 PM   #128
Mark Mueller
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

This...

"Or if you mean my judging Ueshiba as 'a man who had one of the most highly tuned and efficient mind/body organizations ever known," I'd say that's pretty well established by the results he got and the opinions of him expressed by hundreds if not thousands of the most prominent exponents of the activities Ueshiba pursued."

From a highly regimented society where, from my limited understanding, communication tends to the oblique, rather than direct, and with over 40 year old recollections along with the tendency of all society to mythologize certain figures...

But the paradox to me is.....according to today's standards the only one who could use a term like "the most highly tuned and efficient mind/body organizations ever known," would be a world class neuro- scientist.

While I follow and agree with most of your posts regarding this post I did take exception to that....
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Old 08-28-2010, 04:02 PM   #129
aikilouis
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

Superlatives are the best thing ever...

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Old 08-28-2010, 04:43 PM   #130
David Orange
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

Quote:
Mark Mueller wrote: View Post
This...From a highly regimented society where, from my limited understanding, communication tends to the oblique, rather than direct, and with over 40 year old recollections along with the tendency of all society to mythologize certain figures...

But the paradox to me is.....according to today's standards the only one who could use a term like "the most highly tuned and efficient mind/body organizations ever known," would be a world class neuro- scientist.
Well, scores of the most efficient fighters in Japan all agreed that Morihei Ueshiba was on a level far above their own. And martial arts are about coordination of mind and body...so I don't think it's really necessary to call in a neurologist. Ueshiba performed consistently at a level far beyond "ordinary" humans and quite above that of most very highly trained fighters. Many of the records we have are contemporary and even when the recollections hark back sixty or seventy years, the historical records show that these fantastically skilled men meekly followed Morihei because of his abilities. We're talking about men who were daunting to much larger and highly trained American soldiers after the war. Those men found Ueshiba daunting.

I think we can judge high-level performance well enough with those references, but when we want to evaluate nerve or brain damage, I'd say that we then should call on the neuro scientists.

Best to you.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 08-28-2010 at 04:49 PM.

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Old 08-28-2010, 06:27 PM   #131
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

Frankly, David, I've found your rather defensive overreaction to what Scott has from the beginning stated was merely spitballin' speculation to be more insulting to people who actually have such conditions, acting like it would be a horrible, terrible thing for Ueshiba to have had one, or for people to even think that he did.

Josh Reyer

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Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
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Old 08-28-2010, 07:23 PM   #132
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Ueshiba performed consistently at a level far beyond "ordinary" humans and quite above that of most very highly trained fighters. Many of the records we have are contemporary and even when the recollections hark back sixty or seventy years, the historical records show that these fantastically skilled men meekly followed Morihei because of his abilities.
But... what if Ueshiba contemporaries were not as good/skilled as we believe they were?

You surely are aware that Mochizuki Sensei found aikido (the pre-war he studied under O Sensei) lacking when accepting challenges from french wrestlers, boxers or savateurs (see video of french savateurs in 1934) and needing judo (see video of judo in the 20's). Observe the skill level of both savateurs and judoka (video of boxers and wrestlers of that era are available too) and make a comparison with the skill level of todays practitioners of the same art. And yes, I know Mochizuki came to Europe after WWII.

Ueshiba was awesome by japanese standards at that time, and japanese budoka were awesome by western standards at that time.

Today's standards... well, are a bit higher.

Quote:
We're talking about men who were daunting to much larger and highly trained American soldiers after the war. Those men found Ueshiba daunting
Were those men skilled?

Quote:
when we want to evaluate nerve or brain damage, I'd say that we then should call on the neuro scientists.
Seconded

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 08-28-2010 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 08-28-2010, 08:19 PM   #133
David Orange
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
Frankly, David, I've found your rather defensive overreaction to what Scott has from the beginning stated was merely spitballin' speculation to be more insulting to people who actually have such conditions, acting like it would be a horrible, terrible thing for Ueshiba to have had one, or for people to even think that he did.
No, I'm more responding to the irrationality of proposing that Ueshiba's high level of performance for over a half century could have resulted from brain or nerve damage--and that without any evidence that he had that condition. Unless we want to go back to Buck's assertion that Morihei was obese...and then maybe the nerve damage resulted from his obesity...

History and science have been more offended than people with whatever condition Scott has in mind.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 08-28-2010, 09:15 PM   #134
David Orange
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
But... what if Ueshiba contemporaries were not as good/skilled as we believe they were?
Well, they impressed the heck out of the US soldiers who arrived there after the war--and those Japanese were just the survivors. Many of the best were killed in combat. And a lot of those had been trained by Morihei Ueshiba at the Naval Academy.

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
You surely are aware that Mochizuki Sensei found aikido (the pre-war he studied under O Sensei) lacking when accepting challenges from french wrestlers, boxers or savateurs (see video of french savateurs in 1934) and needing judo (see video of judo in the 20's). Observe the skill level of both savateurs and judoka (video of boxers and wrestlers of that era are available too) and make a comparison with the skill level of todays practitioners of the same art. And yes, I know Mochizuki came to Europe after WWII.
Well, Mochizuki Sensei didn't say he lost to any of those folks. He just thought aikido would be improved by broadening the range of attacks against which it would be practiced. He had a lot of interesting stories about those times, but in his mind, from early on, aikido included everything up to and including artillery. And he took on any and all challengers (except the guy who was known to bring throwing knives to wrestling matches). But he never considered himself to have surpassed Morihei Ueshiba.

And while standards have risen in he decades since the war, those advances were built on the teachings and innovations of people like Ueshiba and Mochizuki. There's every reason to believe that Morihei would have kept pace, if not for the inevitable decline of years. Like Dan Harden, he was a monster for training and he didn't rest on the standards of yesteryear.

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Ueshiba was awesome by japanese standards at that time, and japanese budoka were awesome by western standards at that time.
That's my point. Everyone respected the Japanese fighting man at that time and the Japanese fighting man respected Morihei Ueshiba.

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Today's standards... well, are a bit higher.
Yes, but again, those standards are built on the old standards. Morihei would be about 130 years old today, so of course I'm not saying he'd be beating up on the champions of UFC or K1 if he were still alive. But there's no reason to think that, all things being equal, he wouldn't have risen to the top in today's world just as he did in history. His attributes put him at the top in a world where the stakes were not belts and trophies but literally life and death. So I think it was him plus his training that resulted in his legend among men who were legendary in their own right. And I think few people in today's world--even the top fighters--would outdo him.

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Were those men (the US soldiers who came to Japan after the war--DO) skilled?
We're talking about military police, among others, who brought down the Nazis and the Japanese forces over four years of hell. Whether you would call them "skilled," I'm not sure, but many were veterans of hand-to-hand warfare and they weren't push-overs. Yet there's a famous video of Ueshiba allowing several MPs to try to take him and he disappeared from their grips with ease.

Again, many of these were the ones who brought arts like karate back to the US--because they were so impressed by the Japanese teachers. And the Japanese teachers? They were astounded by Morihei Ueshiba...

And to suggest that Morihei's abilities resulted from brain or nerve damages and hallucinations...well...it just doesn't sit well with me.

Maybe I'm wrong. I just don't think so.

Best to you.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 08-28-2010 at 09:22 PM.

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Old 08-28-2010, 09:31 PM   #135
Scott Burke
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

and that without any evidence that he had that condition.

Oh for the love of... Look. Just reread the definition of speculation, again. Please. As for evidence... Fellah, it's anecdotal. Ueshiba's visions bear striking resemblance to those described by other human beings. In those cases, there is a prosaic explanation involving brain function. You're getting way to hung up on the brain injury thing. This isn't about proving a case behind a shadow of a doubt, its just food for thought. "Ueshiba saw beams of light, so have lots of people. How? Well, lets shoot the breeze a little..." That was the intent of all of this, not to present a paper at a symposium.

And just because you proclaim such ideas to be stillborn (dead baby imagery. Classy), that doesn't make it so.

You're just one guy on the Internet who has apparently taken it upon himself to act as guardian of the Ueshiba family's honor against anything you perceive to be an insult. I've tried to keep this light hearted but your brusque, casually aggressive, get the final word in at any cost attitude have have made this surprisingly unpleasant.

Parting shot. In the future, you should really look at something like thishere before declaring something completely irrational.

Blimey!
Scott
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Old 08-28-2010, 11:12 PM   #136
Jim Sorrentino
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Seeing Bullet Paths (was Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power)

Greetings All,

I have done a bit of training with firearms, and years ago I was a member of a list-serve for alumni of Gunsite, a firearms school in Arizona. Gunsite is one of the oldest firearms "dojo" in the US, and possibly the first to offer instruction in the tactical use of firearms to law-abiding citizens who do not happen to have military or law enforcement status.

Some years back, several people wrote to the Gunsite list-serve about their experience of seeing bullets on their way to the target. This reminded me of the many accounts of O-Sensei claiming to see bullets during various battles. While this sounds fantastic, it turns out that others have had similar perceptions. Here is what one Gunsite instructor said:
I have frequently seen pistol bullets on their way to the target...but only those fired by others, as I'm generally focused on my front sight [when I'm shooting]. This occurs primarily when the sun is coming across the range at a low angle. Jacketed bullets seem to glint more, but I've frequently seen lead bullets too.
If one can perceive the glint of flying bullets on the range, in a relatively low-stress training environment, imagine what the mind (and later, the memory) would do with such a sight if witnessed in the heat of battle.

Sincerely,

Jim

He had made enough enemies to acquire his nickname, and not enough friends to hear what it was. P. Califia, The Spoiler
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Old 08-28-2010, 11:38 PM   #137
Ellis Amdur
 
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

I recently had a discussion with a range master about this - and he went through a lot of guns where the bullets travel at a speed where they can be seen.
Furthermore - recently had another conversation with a police officer (long story for another time), but he shot a machete wielding man in the chest, and saw the bullet traveling through the air and the ripples of impact in the bare flesh of his chest.
Remember, though, what Ueshiba claimed is that he could see a beam of light of the "intention" of the shooter, before the bullet left the gun. He was, he claimed, reacting to the intention, which he could perceive, not the bullet.
Ellis Amdur

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Old 08-29-2010, 12:24 AM   #138
Michael Varin
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote:
Remember, though, what Ueshiba claimed is that he could see a beam of light of the "intention" of the shooter, before the bullet left the gun. He was, he claimed, reacting to the intention, which he could perceive, not the bullet.
Yes. That's correct, and totally different from seeing the bullet, which wouldn't help you get out of the way.

By the way, I believe it was this ability, not any supposed "internal strength," that gained the respect and awe of Morihei's contemporaries and students.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 08-29-2010, 12:26 AM   #139
David Orange
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Re: Seeing Bullet Paths (was Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power)

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Some years back, several people wrote to the Gunsite list-serve about their experience of seeing bullets on their way to the target. This reminded me of the many accounts of O-Sensei claiming to see bullets during various battles.
Wow. I never thought of this as anything but O Sensei's ability to "feel" the enemy's intent directed toward him. But he could actually have been physically seeing the bullets on their way to him.

Actually, though, while looking into Demetrio's clarification that this happened during the 1920s, I read that he "felt spiritual bullets pass through his body." Which would, again, indicate that he was feeling intent. But that recognition of intent might have been aided by seeing the actual bullet on its way!

Again, just, wow.

Thanks for that one.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 08-29-2010, 12:32 AM   #140
David Orange
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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Michael Varin wrote: View Post
I believe it was this ability, not any supposed "internal strength," that gained the respect and awe of Morihei's contemporaries and students.
Well, Mochizuki Sensei put no stock at all in those kinds of stories. It was Ueshiba's power in hand-to-hand fighting (and his skill with weapons) that got Mochizuki's attention. And I think most serious and experienced martial artists of the day were similar. They would have considered those stories as interesting, at best. They had attitudes like the MMA fighter who popped the venerable "ki master" in the mouth on YouTube. Put up or shut up. And what impressed them was that Morihei could always put up. That was the only thing that gave any weight to those stories at all. Without that ability, they would have just considered him a nut.

Regards.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-29-2010, 01:19 AM   #141
David Orange
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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Scott Burke wrote: View Post
Oh for the love of... Look. Just reread the definition of speculation, again. Please.
Scott, I understand speculation. I've read tons of science fiction. But one of the rules of science fiction is that you can't break fundamental laws of physics or other rational truths or you shatter the illusion of the story. It's no fun if the idea is just too far out from human experience or requires things that we know could not possibly happen.

Speculation has to at least have some basis in known fact: the idea that Morihei may have changed aikijujutsu after seeing baguazhang in China is speculation and it is "interesting" and "believable" only because it is "possible." He did travel to China and there were bagua masters in China and he did change aikijujutsu after his travels in China. And we discussed the heck out of that idea.

But with no history of any kind of injury, no family history of visions or hallucinations, etc., to speculate that Morihei achieved power through brain injury is just out there with saying he got his power from aliens who took him to planet Xenoid when he never said that he went there, no one in his family said it and he was with high government officials at the time you say it happened (for instance).

Morihei got his power from training in martial arts with the tenacious mind and strong body he developed in an arduous life. He got the visions from his arduous spiritual seeking and participation in esoteric Buddhist and Shinto practices with Deguchi and through his own research.

To "speculate" on these matters is to bring up ideas such as that he might have been influenced by baguazhang or that he did a lot of judo or had teaching certificates in this, that or another style of swordsmanship. There is at least some possibility and some historical shreds to allow conjecture. But the usual fairly rapid deterioration of someone with brain injuries flies in the face of Morihei's long-term high-level functioning and negates the believability of your idea.

I'm just saying if you want to go on with that line, just dig up any account of injury. Otherwise, it's most reasonable to accept that his visions came through great effort and dedicated seeking, on purpose and that his skill came from training.

Quote:
Scott Burke wrote: View Post
As for evidence... Fellah, it's anecdotal.
No, Scott. "Anecdotal" is that he says he felt "spiritual bullets" pass through his body when someone was about to shoot at him. "Anecdotal" is that people say he pulled up a tree while standing on its roots.

"Anecdotal" would be if you found any kind of reference anywhere to his suffering any kind of injury that could have produced brain or nerve damage.

"Anecdotal" accounts at least provide some "reason" to think that something might have happened, or to "speculate" along those lines.

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Scott Burke wrote: View Post
Ueshiba's visions bear striking resemblance to those described by other human beings.
Except that such people usually actually believe that those things happen in the real world around them and that other people should be able to see them, as well. And they tend to be unrelated to "real" matters going on around them. In Morihei's case, his perception of spiritual bullets speeding toward him allowed him to move when people actually were firing real bullets at him. But when he saw the world split open and golden beams of light coming out of the ground, or whatever, he didn't go up to others and say "Did you see that?" He was describing "feelings", not things that he really believed happened in the physical world. People who see such things because of brain injury or mental illness cannot usually make that distinction.

Quote:
Scott Burke wrote: View Post
In those cases, there is a prosaic explanation involving brain function. You're getting way to hung up on the brain injury thing. This isn't about proving a case behind a shadow of a doubt, its just food for thought.
Sorry. I'm no Ph.D, myself, but for the past ten years I've been working in epidemiology and biostatistics and most of the people I deal with day to day are neurologists. I write articles for people with multiple sclerosis for an international quarterly MS publication. I spend a lot of time reading and thinking about brain lesions and nerve damage and their effects on human lives. I've just been conditioned to expect a higher level of treatment of these subjects than we've been getting here. I'm afraid your propositions struck me more like "fast food for thought" than something I'd find in the Journal of Neurology.

Quote:
Scott Burke wrote: View Post
"Ueshiba saw beams of light, so have lots of people. How? Well, lets shoot the breeze a little..." That was the intent of all of this, not to present a paper at a symposium.
These other people who saw beams of light...did they see them in the instant before someone fired a gun at them allowing the to narrowly dodge bullets? Or did they just see beams of light? I'm thinking these experiences probably negatively impacted the lives of the people you describe, while, for Morihei, they saved his life.

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Scott Burke wrote: View Post
And just because you proclaim such ideas to be stillborn (dead baby imagery. Classy), that doesn't make it so.
Well, until you bring some "reason" to speculate along those lines, I don't see a heartbeat there and I don't hear any signs of life.

Quote:
Scott Burke wrote: View Post
You're just one guy on the Internet who has apparently taken it upon himself to act as guardian of the Ueshiba family's honor against anything you perceive to be an insult. I've tried to keep this light hearted but your brusque, casually aggressive, get the final word in at any cost attitude have have made this surprisingly unpleasant.
Well, I'm not just any guy on the internet. I have some pretty close associations to the deepest roots of aikido. And I have worked with a neurologist from the University of Oxford....so my thinking on those lines may be a little prejudiced as well.

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Scott Burke wrote: View Post
Parting shot.
As in, "Getting in the last word?" I don't want the last word, necessarily, if your last word makes some sense. But you were saying...

Quote:
Scott Burke wrote: View Post
In the future, you should really look at something like thishere before declaring something completely irrational.
I know what synesthesia is. It was frequently described as one of the big effects of LSD in the early 60s: you see sounds and hear colors, etc.

But what does that have to do with any of Morihei's visions or other experiences? He never reported anything along those lines. He saw lights and heard gunshots. Where is the "blending of senses" that would cause you even to mention the condition of synesthesia?

Really trying to see what you're saying...

David

Last edited by David Orange : 08-29-2010 at 01:28 AM.

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Old 08-29-2010, 06:06 AM   #142
CarlRylander
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

They know now that birds have bits in their brains that can sense disturbances in magnetic fields, perhaps some humans can? I've seen dogs that can sense when people are behind them, and humans too.

I could see air rifle pellets moving when I was a kid. They only move slow.

As to Ueshiba's power, he may have been just stronger and faster than average. I've seen 64 year olds that can move with a flicker. Ueshiba just enhanced it.
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Old 08-29-2010, 01:39 PM   #143
David Orange
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

Quote:
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But with no history of any kind of injury, no family history of visions or hallucinations, etc., to speculate that Morihei achieved power through brain injury is just out there with saying he got his power from aliens who took him to planet Xenoid when he never said that he went there, no one in his family said it and he was with high government officials at the time you say it happened (for instance).
Scott,

Not to be insulting. I was just referring back to the "rules" of speculative fiction. See, my early decades were spent in poetry and creative fiction, a lot of it verging into science fiction. And like Morihei, I had a fairly low level of education. And when I got excited, I got very visual. What Morihei was describing was simply ecstasy, which I'm sure I would feel too, if I had just survived unharmed in a shinken attack by a kendo master. That was a vivid experience, no doubt, and his feelings following it must have been very vivid.

He was definitely a vivid person, but I have never heard any accounts of lingering injury and certainly not brain injury. I may just be vivid in stating it.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 08-29-2010, 02:04 PM   #144
Ellis Amdur
 
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

Putting aside brain injury and mushrooms, neither of which are necessary anyway, could Ueshiba have been one of the many millions of people who experience synesthesia? Sure, why not? One of my friends just revealed to me that she was blessed with this condition - and described in detail what colors she perceived when she heard various sounds.
Frankly, this thread is getting side-tracked on the subject, so let's bring it back to center.
1. Most people who are healthy who describe synesthesia, talk about either the aesthetic wonders of the experience, how distracting it is, or in some cases, savant skills (different numbers have different colors, enabling one savant to calculate at astonishing speeds). I do not recall ever reading about synesthesia contributing to physical abilities.
2. This discussion pre-supposes that Ueshiba was out-standing, in the sense that his skills surpassed those of any and all - thereby needing a special beyond human power. Most of Ueshiba's skills were not unique to him. The one's that were beg a question - are they merely fantasies that his students - and he - told? Or did he have paranormal powers as well? So, perhaps we can break down his 'powers."
He could evade attack of even multiple individuals, and grab like a vice, and break your bones if he chose. Certainly, these are skills held by many.
He had a high level of skill in "aiki" - (there, that was quick) - but he was not alone in this. Others equaled or surpassed him, both in Japan or elsewhere.
Some, however, questioned his skills then and now. Kunii Zen'ya of Kashima Shin-ryu publicly derided Ueshiba and aikido. On of my own teachers stated to me that Ueshiba's sword work was inept, citing the way he did Yokokiuchi (striking a bundle of sticks). "When done properly, you strike one point every time. Eventually, the sticks are broken through, but the bark, except for that one point, is untouched. Ueshiba-san just whacked away like he was doing exercise."
The magic accounts - seeing beams of light, Shioda's claim that Ueshiba had soldiers fire at him and he dodged the bullets and ended up behind them, the atemi Ueshiba allegedly did to a top judo man, crippling him forever. Interestingly, Shioda was a source of a lot of these. Another example would be Terry Dobson's account of attacking him full force and finding himself wafted up in the ionosphere, gazing down at the azure ball of the earth, and then falling through the atmosphere BOOM! - to "awake" on the tatami, with Ueshiba gazing, amused, in his eyes, or the calling up of the malevolent kami that sickens Mariye Takahashi I must say, my favorite was the time the uchi-deshi asked Ueshiba if he could teleport and he materialized at the top of the stairs and they asked him to do it again and he got mad and said that it took ten years off his life (and I can't help wondering how many years each practice rep pared away). Nonetheless, these stories are beyond aiki stories - and it's either a case of "where there's smoke, there's fire," or "smoke and mirrors."
IF such things exist, then one would be required to undertake esoteric training. Ueshiba is not the only one of whom such things have been described. I've heard of other budoka who also, allegedly, had paranormal powers. So, for those interested in such, mikkyo, shamanistic practices, lots of mushrooms - something extra is required.
However, the first two items - "aiki" included - are, by all reports, a matter of meticulous practice, good teaching and hard work.
No brain damage required.
Ellis Amdur

Last edited by Ellis Amdur : 08-29-2010 at 02:07 PM.

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Old 08-29-2010, 03:01 PM   #145
Alfonso
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

jeez, next thing you're going to say that it means that unless you're after the Jedi bundle , by meticulous practice, hard work and good teaching, we should be able to reach the power and skill that Ueshiba reportedly had?

Or are you saying that if you're after the Jedi bundle, you can take a head dive off a cliff, eat a lot of mushrooms, and get some fun students with a knack for spinning yarns to help along the way?

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 08-29-2010, 03:16 PM   #146
Dan Rubin
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
So, perhaps we can break down his 'powers."
Still dueling with the old man, eh? I can recommend someone who "offers private consultation for both psychotherapists and lay people who encounter troubling individuals."
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Old 08-29-2010, 04:07 PM   #147
Ellis Amdur
 
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

Alfondo - both.
Dan - Some people are beyond help

Actually, this thread started so simple. "Wow, here's a mundane account of an amazed martial arts professional who experienced Ueshiba functioning as an amazingly impressive martial artist."
But when Ueshiba is the subject, soon we veer off, as always, into brain damage, magic bullets, and the bestest that ever was. And the only answer does seem to be mushrooms.
We have a selection:
Owaraitake ("big laugher mushrooms")
Waraitake ("laughter mushrooms")
Shibiretake ("shivering mushrooms")
Aozometake ("blue halo mushrooms")
Maitake/odoritake ("dancing mushrooms")
And for those whose years of frustrated training, even turbocharged by fungi have not yet enabled you to teleport to the top of the stairs, see beams of bullet energy, or call down the gods, there is always a last resort: amanita pantheria. (careful - the panther is reported to have sharp claws).
Somewhere along the line, you may end up with a (productive) head injury as well.

Last edited by Ellis Amdur : 08-29-2010 at 04:10 PM.

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Old 08-30-2010, 08:49 AM   #148
Dennis Hooker
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Red face Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

Have you never faced a skilled budo man who seemed to know what you were going to do before you did it? It is discomforting and at the same time a bit joyful knowing that someday you too may achieve that skill with diligent training. Have you ever known what someone close to you was going to say before they said it or do something before they did it? Maybe these senses can be developed or perhaps some people are born with a heightened sense of intuitiveness. Of course there are always those people that think and say "if I can't do it, it can't be done".
I am at a point now after 50 years of training that allows me the skill of moving a bit so that when punched at or grabbed the attacker is unbalanced and since their body follows their balance they fall. To the uninitiated eye it is purple smoke and mirrors to those in the know it is 50 years of training, learning and hard work. Does this work every time with everyone? Of course not but I can just get another 50 years it might. I am a slow learner.

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Old 08-30-2010, 09:24 AM   #149
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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David Orange wrote: View Post
That's my point. Everyone respected the Japanese fighting man at that time and the Japanese fighting man respected Morihei Ueshiba.
However, I think Ueshiba was a case of one eyed man in the country of the blind while there were people with 20/20 vision who lacked political connections.

He was very good by that time standards, but I don't believe him was "the most perfect creature ever to sanctify the earth with the imprint of its foot"

Quote:
Yet there's a famous video of Ueshiba allowing several MPs to try to take him and he disappeared from their grips with ease.
You mean this (starting at 2:43)? Look at the PM's. Do they look skilled at hand to hand combat?
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Old 08-30-2010, 12:50 PM   #150
David Orange
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
However, I think Ueshiba was a case of one eyed man in the country of the blind while there were people with 20/20 vision who lacked political connections.
I don't see what you mean. He did instruct H2H at the Imperial Naval Academy. In other words, he was respected at the highest levels of the military.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
He was very good by that time standards, but I don't believe him was "the most perfect creature ever to sanctify the earth with the imprint of its foot"
Unfortunately, like us, he did not have the great good fortune to have been born Korean.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
You mean this (starting at 2:43)? Look at the PM's. Do they look skilled at hand to hand combat?
In my experience, some of the most incredibly skilled people were nothing to look at. I know I thought they let Murai Sensei hang around the yoseikan just because he was old and probably didn't have anything else to do.

Also, from the clip, it's not very good because it opens when the action has just passed and you can't well tell what anyone is doing. However, I can see that most of those guys are very big and if you look at them in the following scenes, they all look in good shape. But one thing we do know: their job was go out and drag in unruly US fighting men who had just recently been at war. So, though they may not look like much, they are big and they were arresting fighting men for a living.

Also, there are the written accounts by the men in that group and by others who observed. I believe one of those MPs was Robert W. Smith, who was a contemporary of Donn Draeger's...

No, I wouldn't try to say the Morihei Ueshiba was "the most perfect creature," but all around, in each direction, he stands out when compared to any other man. And I don't know of anyone who ever successfully stood against him, so I'd still have to say he was "one of the greatest."

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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