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Old 08-24-2010, 05:33 PM   #76
statisticool
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
gen1 = Ueshiba Morihei
gen2 = 0.8 X gen1 (i am very generous of 80%)
gen3 = 0.8 X gen2
If someone attempts to mug me, or worse, and I am forced to defend myself...why does any of this matter?

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-24-2010, 05:42 PM   #77
Dan Rubin
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Actually, Mifune and Ueshiba did meet. At the 1955 gathering of all the shihan - a week long training that I've referred to here and there - Kobayashi Yasuo recalled being in attendance while Ueshiba and Mifune had dinner. (And apparently, none of the uchi-deshi listened to the conversation - being young and probably tired, they just waited while the old men pontificated and ate). (It is very possible that they met elsewhere, but this time is known).
Ellis Amdur
This is from Kobayashi's memoir. I don't know if it refers to the same occasion, but I this occasion he listened (and mostly forgot):

One of my pleasantest memories from this period is of having a meal with O-Sensei and Judo’ Kyuzo Mifune Sensei. It was about 1958 or 59 at the house of Saburo Sugiyama, who was the president of Sugiyama Contruction, had a judo dojo, and was also a regent of the Aikikai. He invited both of these famous men, and both agreed to come. Through the discernment of both of these men, a strict yet calm atmosphere prevailed for those of us who had chosen our paths; we were all extremely appreciative and took turns serving them sake.

I don’t remember much about the discussion except that Mifune Sensei expressed the Judo philosophy “If pushed, pull—if pulled, push.” But O-Sensei commented after that, “If pulled, turn," summing up in a phrase containing a flash of brilliant insight, it seemed.

http://www.kobayashi-dojo.com/english/book/3_5/
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Old 08-24-2010, 05:58 PM   #78
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

Thanks, Dan. That was the occasion I was thinking of - I conflated it with the 1955 occasion.
It is too bad that they did not touch palms, even in the most sedate of fashion.
Ellis Amdur

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Old 08-24-2010, 08:15 PM   #79
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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Justin Smith wrote: View Post
If someone attempts to mug me, or worse, and I am forced to defend myself...why does any of this matter?

Justin
in that situation, would you rather have the skill level of gen1 or gen2 or would rather have skill level of gen5? think of skill level and your chance of survival. personally, i rather want to increase my chance of survival by having the skill level of Gen0, i.e. Ueshiba's teacher.
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Old 08-25-2010, 07:19 AM   #80
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

DISCLAIMER: I know little to nothing about internal aiki.

While making my daily bicycle commute to work I was thinking about the mechanics of my pedaling action. I ride with toe clips so that I am able to use an additional muscle group to assist in pedaling. Some folks only use the down action to propel one forward. Most regular bike riders readily recognize the efficiency involved in utilizing both the up and the down stroke. This is how I think Ueshiba Morihei and others are able to do remarkable things. They have trained themselves to engage not only additional muscle groups, but also, tendons, ligaments, fascia, etc. I believe this can be a powerful combination of human energy. And don't forget their amazing ability to store and release energy at will. GOOD STUFF!
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Old 08-25-2010, 07:43 AM   #81
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

Meh, go get hands on people that say they work on "internal strength" . . see for yourself. If you're just happy doing what you're doing, that's awesome, too. Just keep in mind, it doesn't necessarily mean you have a clue about internal strength, though. And if what's been written about what Ueshiba "did" versus what's mostly practiced around the world as "aikido" today doesn't make you at least curious enough to investigate more . . then the likelihood of you making many strides into the IS space isn't very high, either, as it requires a ton of solitary dedication, exploration, research and even obsession.
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Old 08-25-2010, 08:33 AM   #82
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

I think you have to say Ueshiba Morihei's strength is manifold.
-He had an aiki body that was well developed. I think this is the foundation of everything else that leads us to be discussing him today. I personally find this the most fascinating part. I think this is the gas that powers the waza..... the *source* of his power.
-On top of this he had a sense of ethics and morality that he evolved; and he was extraordarily dedicated, committed, self-consistent, and sincere, amongst a host of other admirable qualities, that all feed into this 'strength'. "A Life In Aikido" describes a lot about this amazing life.
-In addition to that he had his own brand of spirituality that unfolded and let him believe, with the utmost commitment, in himself and his world view to a level most people know nothing about. Frankly most people don't think too hard about too many things about this life.

I believe this combination of his bodily strength/skill, his laser-like focus, adamantine willpower, intestinal fortitude that is beyond humbling, and his dedication to a cause larger than himself (i.e. the shinto Worldview; and the gods) all represent facets that drove this man's life into a resonance of power, strength, and achievements. I do not think he ever looked back....always looking forward..he did the best he could...qualifying that statement insofar as to say he committed to, and searched for, pieces that fit the puzzle...the way he intuitively saw it and wanted to work with...it. Either he knew what he was searching for; or searched for what he knew... or needed...or wanted.

I think that each of these strengths can be analyzed separately. I do not find this disrespectful. Perhaps in an older time; to study with a man; you had to do and be everything he was. I do not know. I can see that some would have a problem with this; for if they want to follow Ueshiba Morihei, but perhaps not so much if you can take him as a teacher.... to help you..in subjects you want to learn about. We are _each_ in _our_ own lives...too short to follow... I think we have to each lead our own lives.

Just my random thoughts on this; and all the many fine posts in this thread.
Thanks, Josh
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Old 08-25-2010, 03:37 PM   #83
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
in that situation, would you rather have the skill level of gen1 or gen2 or would rather have skill level of gen5? think of skill level and your chance of survival. personally, i rather want to increase my chance of survival by having the skill level of Gen0, i.e. Ueshiba's teacher.
When stuff hits the fan one has whatever skill level they have. Maybe all that matters is your skill level is greater than the skill level of whoever is trying to do mean things to you.

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-25-2010, 05:38 PM   #84
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
. . then the likelihood of you making many strides into the IS space isn't very high, either, as it requires a ton of solitary dedication, exploration, research and even obsession.
IMO, I think the obsession is ki
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Old 08-25-2010, 05:52 PM   #85
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
So you really believe that Ueshiba sensei was essentially a one-off? That one can't replicate his skills without also replicating, to some degree, the spiritual components of his life? Because those actually contributed to his physical skills?
I do. Understanding the exact attitude he held when doing Aikido is critical to understanding the Aikido he did. The kind of attitude you hold while practicing has incredible effects on your technique, posture, spacing, etc. On a very basic level, if you are angry, your Aikido becomes sloppy, if you are happy your Aikido becomes more fluid. On deeper levels, I have noticed significant improvement in my Aikido when I hold different mentalities like extension, harmony, love, visualization, sacredness, etc. On the other hand my Aikido crumbles when I hold mentalities like arrogance, perfectionism, aggression, skepticism, etc. From my experiences I conclude that a person approaching Aikido with the intention to make himself incredible so he can show his friends will do different Aikido than someone who approaches it with the intention to cultivate mind, body, and spirit.

What you do in life alters the way you perceive your Aikido. How you perceive your Aikido alters your practice. Altering your practice (obviously) alters your technique.

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
What about those of his time who also had those skills but none of the spiritual components?
I don't think there were any in his time who had his skill. There were many martial arts masters, but none threw their opponents in quite the same way. People who were Uke for O Sensei often said that they couldn't feel themselves being thrown. Saotome Sensei spoke of seeing a mountain in Morihei's place. He said he was afraid to attack at first, and after finally coming in, Morihei was gone. Instead, he heard the whizzing of three full bokken strikes behind is back. Just ten minutes earlier he had laboriously supported O Sensei up the stairs. Isn't this what this thread is about? How no one could replicate his skill? If there were masters with his skill, not even necessarily from Japan, then there must be something a little bit more profound behind their skills than just the physical. And obviously, O sensei taught that the key to Aikido is the spiritual. Why don't we listen to him? His approach has apparently been the most successful after all!

- Johann

Last edited by Johann Baptista : 08-25-2010 at 05:53 PM. Reason: Quote was wrong
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Old 08-25-2010, 07:53 PM   #86
David Orange
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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Johann Baptista wrote: View Post
...I conclude that a person approaching Aikido with the intention to make himself incredible so he can show his friends will do different Aikido than someone who approaches it with the intention to cultivate mind, body, and spirit.
Yeah, it will. But the point here is an examination of what really constitutes "cultivating" the mind, body and spirit: is it just following the movements or is it peering into the depths of their nature? Is it repeating the forms or digging out the essence behind the form? Is it to practice only the avoidance that we see now, or to find the ability to be unmoved as Morihei Ueshiba definitely had?

In my opinion, getting to the root of Ueshiba's power is far more important than imitating his outward appearance.

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Johann Baptista wrote: View Post
I don't think there were any in his time who had his skill.
Well, what about his teacher, Sokaku Takeda? Morihei apparently never equaled Sokaku's skill, much less surpassed it. And there were Sagawa and Horikawa, who were also direct students of Sokaku's. And there was Mifune. My teacher was uchi deshi to both Ueshiba and Mifune and he said that Mifune was equally able to throw his opponent on contact, effortlessly, at will. So I think this discounts the idea that Morihei's particular spirituality was a prerequisite for obtaining that kind of skill and power.

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Johann Baptista wrote: View Post
There were many martial arts masters, but none threw their opponents in quite the same way. People who were Uke for O Sensei often said that they couldn't feel themselves being thrown.
Same for Mifune. And there is a guy in Omaezaki named Kyoichi Murai who can throw pretty much anyone without their being able to feel it happening: he was the only person I ever met, in fact, who could really do that to me.

Quote:
Johann Baptista wrote: View Post
Saotome Sensei spoke of seeing a mountain in Morihei's place. He said he was afraid to attack at first, and after finally coming in, Morihei was gone. Instead, he heard the whizzing of three full bokken strikes behind is back. Just ten minutes earlier he had laboriously supported O Sensei up the stairs. Isn't this what this thread is about? How no one could replicate his skill?
Not at all. This thread is about the true nature of Morihei's skill and what it really takes to obtain that.

Quote:
Johann Baptista wrote: View Post
If there were masters with his skill, not even necessarily from Japan, then there must be something a little bit more profound behind their skills than just the physical. And obviously, O sensei taught that the key to Aikido is the spiritual. Why don't we listen to him? His approach has apparently been the most successful after all!
How can we "listen" to Morihei if we don't even know anyone who ever actually knew him? There is, of course, more to it than the merely physical, but that's mostly called "determination" and "dedication." I think this thread is much more about casting off the blinding idea that no one can obtain Morihei's skill and opening our eyes to the fact that "listening to Morihei" by following the rote movements of people who never met him only leads us further from who and what he was.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-26-2010, 04:24 AM   #87
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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David Orange wrote:
Not at all. This thread is about the true nature of Morihei's skill and what it really takes to obtain that.
Well, let's not be so selective when looking at Morihei's powers. The aiki = internal strength crowd loves to frame the story conveniently for their beliefs. But there is far more to the myth and mystery of Morihei Ueshiba.

Here are just a few examples off the top of my head.

Morihei obviously had enormous physical strength. He is rumored to have moved a tree trunk single handedly, that several men combined could not move.

Morihei on varied occasions demonstrated the ability to know the thoughts of others.

Morihei was able to "shout" a man back into balance who had fallen backwards while walking up some stairs.

Morihei could dodge bullets. This skill included being able to see a beam of light that was the bullets trajectory the moment before the bullet was fired. It also included the ability to cover a large distance in an extremely short time. He was positioned 25 meters from the firing squad, and before the smoke cleared was behind them and had actually thrown one of them. He did this twice in a row.

I believe that those last two stories were witnessed and reported by Gozo Shioda.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 08-26-2010, 07:03 AM   #88
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Morihei obviously had enormous physical strength. He is rumored to have moved a tree trunk single handedly, that several men combined could not move.
That the uprooting a pine tree story? Utter crap, it never happened. At least not the way it's been implied it happened.

Don't believe me? Consider the following: Pine Trees have a deeper tap root than most trees, this in addition to the spread of a regular root system that you'd have to be standing on by necessity if you were trying to uproot the tree single handed. You could do it single handed if you were a) fairly strong for your size and b) using some tools to cut through the roots as you went. This BS story gets trundled out all the time as evidence of Ueshiba Sensei's super human strength, I assume it's provenance is this comment by Saotome Sensei, but the comment is actually quite vague and gives just enough detail (plus the context it's presented in) to be very suggestive of some sort of super strong lumberjack guy, who fells trees with his bare hands and then chews the bark off them all before throwing them like javelins to the storage depot 20 miles away.

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 08-26-2010, 07:11 AM   #89
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Well, let's not be so selective when looking at Morihei's powers. The aiki = internal strength crowd loves to frame the story conveniently for their beliefs. But there is far more to the myth and mystery of Morihei Ueshiba.

Here are just a few examples off the top of my head.

Morihei obviously had enormous physical strength. He is rumored to have moved a tree trunk single handedly, that several men combined could not move.

Morihei on varied occasions demonstrated the ability to know the thoughts of others.

Morihei was able to "shout" a man back into balance who had fallen backwards while walking up some stairs.

Morihei could dodge bullets. This skill included being able to see a beam of light that was the bullets trajectory the moment before the bullet was fired. It also included the ability to cover a large distance in an extremely short time. He was positioned 25 meters from the firing squad, and before the smoke cleared was behind them and had actually thrown one of them. He did this twice in a row.

I believe that those last two stories were witnessed and reported by Gozo Shioda.
Many of his students, even his own son, discount most of this stuff. Most of which can be found in the interviews on AJ.
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Old 08-26-2010, 07:12 AM   #90
David Orange
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Well, let's not be so selective when looking at Morihei's powers. The aiki = internal strength crowd loves to frame the story conveniently for their beliefs. But there is far more to the myth and mystery of Morihei Ueshiba.
Sure. But what modern aikido school claims to teach any of that?

For one, Mochizuki Sensei utterly scoffed at the idea of uprooting any kind of tree while standing on the root structure of that tree.

For another, Sokaku Takeda had phenomenal prescience and the ability to read minds. One story, told by Tokimune Takeda, involved a woman at an inn who seemed to be a bit unusual but intriguing. Sokaku refused to have anything to do with her and said right off that she was crazy. Everyone else was offended by his attitude, but soon the woman's husband came and confirmed that she was insane.

Such awareness is a by-product of serious training and even I have had many occasions to be able to understand people's thoughts and intentions instantly. Not to the level of either Morihei or Sokaku, but something of that does come from extensive aiki training, even of the tai sabaki and avoidance type. It has to be very serious training, of course.

But again, no modern aikido school claims to teach that kind of thing. What they do claim is that by simple repetition of the forms of the techniques, with a completely cooperative partner, you can develop the phenomenal throwing abilities that Morihei Ueshiba possessed. It is here that the "aiki = internal strength crowd" draws the line. And from my experience in both approaches, I am sure that the internal strength approach is the true way to approach Morihei's power.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-26-2010, 07:22 AM   #91
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
Don't believe me? Consider the following: Pine Trees have a deeper tap root than most trees, this in addition to the spread of a regular root system that you'd have to be standing on by necessity if you were trying to uproot the tree single handed. You could do it single handed if you were a) fairly strong for your size and b) using some tools to cut through the roots as you went. This BS story gets trundled out all the time as evidence of Ueshiba Sensei's super human strength, I assume it's provenance is this comment by Saotome Sensei, but the comment is actually quite vague and gives just enough detail (plus the context it's presented in) to be very suggestive of some sort of super strong lumberjack guy, who fells trees with his bare hands and then chews the bark off them all before throwing them like javelins to the storage depot 20 miles away.
you meant it's not true, shocking. you meant the grapevine system didn't work like in this movie? http://www.mytopclip.com/play.php?vid=18005

i guess i have to stop chewing on the bark. the sap just stuck to the teeth and ruin my dental. also, i need to use the leather gloves, because the delicate skin on my hands are a mess and the wife won't let me touch her (which might be a good thing). not to mention, the neighbors are complaining about seeing trees flying over their roofs and knocking out their satellite dish. neighbors are kinda annoying, guess i have to go over and show them some aiki stuffs.
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Old 08-26-2010, 07:29 AM   #92
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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David Orange wrote: View Post
For another, Sokaku Takeda had phenomenal prescience and the ability to read minds. One story, told by Tokimune Takeda, involved a woman at an inn who seemed to be a bit unusual but intriguing. Sokaku refused to have anything to do with her and said right off that she was crazy. Everyone else was offended by his attitude, but soon the woman's husband came and confirmed that she was insane.

David
"unusual but intriguing" = flirtatious and hot looking

i'll bet Sokaku said to himself "whew! lucky i didn't start to hit on her; otherwise, when the husband show up, we would have to find a quick exit!" so the lesson from Sokaku is, if you see a "hot, flirtatious" woman, assume that she has a really big and strong boyfriend/fiance/husband. don't go and get yourself in trouble, which is the way of aiki, i.e. aikido.
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Old 08-26-2010, 08:10 AM   #93
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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David Orange wrote: View Post
But again, no modern aikido school claims to teach that kind of thing. What they do claim is that by simple repetition of the forms of the techniques, with a completely cooperative partner, you can develop the phenomenal throwing abilities that Morihei Ueshiba possessed. It is here that the "aiki = internal strength crowd" draws the line. And from my experience in both approaches, I am sure that the internal strength approach is the true way to approach Morihei's power.
I'd argue that the aiki suggested by the internal strength folks is not the same as O Sensei was shooting for post war, the soft ghostlike techniques where uke simply cannot feel what is being done to them. I've heard stories of people describing the difference between O Sensei and Tohei Sensei and they said that they couldn't feel O Sensei but when Tohei threw them they knew they'd been thrown and it was very powerful.

I do wonder about that journey, from v.powerful to ghostlike technique and wonder if you have to have the first before you can learn the other, right now I think you do, but I'm starting to wonder if this is true all the time.

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 08-26-2010, 08:19 AM   #94
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
I'd argue that the aiki suggested by the internal strength folks is not the same as O Sensei was shooting for post war, the soft ghostlike techniques where uke simply cannot feel what is being done to them. I've heard stories of people describing the difference between O Sensei and Tohei Sensei and they said that they couldn't feel O Sensei but when Tohei threw them they knew they'd been thrown and it was very powerful.

I do wonder about that journey, from v.powerful to ghostlike technique and wonder if you have to have the first before you can learn the other, right now I think you do, but I'm starting to wonder if this is true all the time.
Have you felt anyone who has some skills though? Kinda hard to make that statement otherwise.
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Old 08-26-2010, 08:26 AM   #95
David Orange
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i guess i have to stop chewing on the bark. the sap just stuck to the teeth and ruin my dental. also, i need to use the leather gloves, because the delicate skin on my hands are a mess and the wife won't let me touch her (which might be a good thing). not to mention, the neighbors are complaining about seeing trees flying over their roofs and knocking out their satellite dish. neighbors are kinda annoying, guess i have to go over and show them some aiki stuffs.
I used to work in a steel mill around 1979, just after college, when I had ikkyu in yoseikan aikido--around the time I met Mochizuki Sensei. The other workers often got mad at me because I had boundless energy and my efforts were a lot more efficient than theirs. Some guy took me aside and told me to slack off because I was making the others look bad. For instance, one day, a supervisor gave me some "make work" to keep me busy for awhile. He took me to a yard between some buildings and showed me a bunch of timbers and other stuff scattered all over this fairly large area. I didn't realize that his intent was to keep me occupied and that I was supposed to take a couple of hours to do this work. The timbers were about five feet long, I guess, and about 4X4". Instead of picking each one up and carrying it to a spot, I just went from timber to timber, grabbed each one by one end and pulled with one hand by turning my body, guiding the length with my other hand (wearing those leather gloves, of course). As I turned, the other end of the timber would come off the ground and I would fling it, through a spiral movement, and send it whirling across the space, several feet in the air. I went from timber to timber and flung them all to a very small area, where I then quickly stacked them. I took about fifteen minutes to do what they expected to take me a couple of hours. And then I was through. Everybody thought I was an idiot for getting stuff done fast because their aim was to stretch it out and take as long as possible to do as little as possible.

With the "average" man thinking and working like that, you don't really have to be too efficient to put them in the shade.

Another thing, about "prescience" or "mind-reading": one of the guys asked me about aikido while we were sitting in a break room and when I tried to explain, he said, "Show me something." So we stood up facing each other, at good ma-ai, several other guys watching. He looked at me and when he decided to attack, I saw "something" rise within his body, like water or air moving up from his lower body into his chest. He instantly stopped and said, "You felt that, didn't you?"

I said, "Yeah."

He said, "I felt you feel it." and that was all the demonstration he wanted. But he always liked me after that.

Careful of those teeth on the bark, now. You hear?

See you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-26-2010, 08:40 AM   #96
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Have you felt anyone who has some skills though? Kinda hard to make that statement otherwise.
I have felt and appreciated the type of internal skills described by various people on aikiweb from both aikido practitioners and other martial artists. I've been through the argument here on aikiweb about it too. I find the insinuation that you have to have been to a Mike Sigman or some similar seminar before you're entitled to make that statement on aikiweb to be disingenuous at best. So I don't play that game around here anymore, it's just not worth the argument.

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 08-26-2010, 08:54 AM   #97
David Orange
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
I find the insinuation that you have to have been to a Mike Sigman or some similar seminar before you're entitled to make that statement on aikiweb to be disingenuous at best. So I don't play that game around here anymore, it's just not worth the argument.
It's not for argument's sake that that comparison comes up. We don't know who you've trained with or what you've felt. But if you say you felt Ark's power, then we know we're on the same page. The consensus seems to be that either Dan, Mike or Ark will give you a very clear, unquestionable exposure to the kind of power we're talking about.

There's no question that other people exist who can give you a similar experience, but the point is to reference them to some "baseline" experience. If you've trained with Dan or Ark, then I know pretty much what you consider to be "internal power." If you haven't met them or Mike, then I don't know what kind of thing you felt or what you might be referring to.

For example, I recently had someone tell me that he can do everything Mike Sigman has shown on tape. And he can also do a lot of the things Ark has demonstrated on tape. But he didn't describe ever having met anyone who had that kind of power. He just developed it on his own.

The problem there is that he judges himself to be more or less on the same level (or at least in the same stream) as Mike, Ark and Dan, even though he's never felt the power that any of them can produce. And he is actually afraid to meet some of these guys. So it really makes me doubt that he has any real idea, despite his very confident explanations.

But if someone tells me they've met and experienced the power of any number of people (Dan, Mike, Ark, Forrest Chang, Chen Xiao Wang, Sam Chinn, Howard Popkin....or any of a number of others), then I can feel confident that we're at least talking about the same thing. As I described earlier, the "average person"'s level is so inefficient that he can be easily impressed by anyone with a little skill. We just need some reference that we can relate to to understand what has impressed you as great power. It's not an attack or a challenge. Just some common point of reference.

In other words, to someone from Lipscomb, Alabama, Birmingham is "a big city." But to someone from Tokyo, New York is not so big.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 08-26-2010, 08:59 AM   #98
David Orange
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
I'd argue that the aiki suggested by the internal strength folks is not the same as O Sensei was shooting for post war, the soft ghostlike techniques where uke simply cannot feel what is being done to them.
No offense, but I think you've got it backward: the soft, ghostlike technique is based in the knowledge from pre-war aiki (DRAJ). It's not something OSensei developed after the war. Otherwise, none of the pre-war people would have it and all the post-war guys would.

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
I've heard stories of people describing the difference between O Sensei and Tohei Sensei and they said that they couldn't feel O Sensei but when Tohei threw them they knew they'd been thrown and it was very powerful.
And I think that proves my point: Tohei was the main architect of modern aikido.

I
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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
do wonder about that journey, from v.powerful to ghostlike technique and wonder if you have to have the first before you can learn the other, right now I think you do, but I'm starting to wonder if this is true all the time.
Well, I think it comes from the internal skills. Shioda certainly seems to have had the ability to control inexplicably and to either blast you or drain your power at will and by choice.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 08-26-2010, 09:12 AM   #99
Ecosamurai
 
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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David Orange wrote: View Post
It's not for argument's sake that that comparison comes up. We don't know who you've trained with or what you've felt. But if you say you felt Ark's power, then we know we're on the same page. The consensus seems to be that either Dan, Mike or Ark will give you a very clear, unquestionable exposure to the kind of power we're talking about.
The point is not lost on me, I'm simply not interested in having the discussion any more. If it matters so much to you then I belive Mike Sigman will be teaching not far from me in the not so distant future, you are at liberty to donate the funds to me that will enable me to attend Otherwise I will happily take it as read that some people whose background in aikido I know well and share to a certain degree who have been to such seminars are of similar opinion to me, i.e. that what's being discussed isn't new, it is actually old. It never left aikido and I've been training in it for years.

At this point I shall exit the conversation as Jun usually has to step in and moderate once things go past this section of the well trodden path involving the 'you have to have felt it from someone we know' argument..

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 08-26-2010, 09:26 AM   #100
David Orange
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Re: Ueshiba Morihei's power

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
The point is not lost on me, I'm simply not interested in having the discussion any more. If it matters so much to you then I belive Mike Sigman will be teaching not far from me in the not so distant future, you are at liberty to donate the funds to me that will enable me to attend
I would like to, but I can barely scrape together the funds for my own putting in place!

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
Otherwise I will happily take it as read that some people whose background in aikido I know well and share to a certain degree who have been to such seminars are of similar opinion to me, i.e. that what's being discussed isn't new, it is actually old. It never left aikido and I've been training in it for years.
If I hadn't met so many folks in aikido who make wet noodles look like O Sensei, I might agree with you. But I know that in most aikido I've encountered, it just is not there.

However, I do know that British aikido has good strong roots, so I won't say there aren't some dojos with a lot of great power. It's just that the one Englishman I met at the yoseikan (not a yoseikan man, by the way) just didn't have a trace of it. Still, I know about the Hut Dojo and a lot of that history and that Mochizuki Sensei was a big force with some Brits. So I won't discount what you say.

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
At this point I shall exit the conversation as Jun usually has to step in and moderate once things go past this section of the well trodden path involving the 'you have to have felt it from someone we know' argument..
I don't think Jun will be bothered as long as we don't get personally insulting about things. And I don't think anyone is saying you have to have felt it from "someone we know" but at least from someone we know "of"--in other words, from someone who's known to 'have it'.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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