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Old 05-18-2010, 02:25 AM   #26
Flintstone
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

Are you really doing right ukemi?
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Old 05-18-2010, 03:16 AM   #27
Walter Martindale
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

I've come off a bicycle and done a mae ukemi. not a scratch. The car managed to stop before it took me out, too. Unintended ukemi on gravel, too. (but then I'm clumsy) Run for phone, oops, crap that's gonna hurt unless I roll, whew - now, the phone....
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Old 05-18-2010, 11:02 AM   #28
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

Quote:
Michael McNamara wrote: View Post
I think we need to have a compromise here Maggie. I'm only saying that knowing what it feels like to roll on the pavement just once is a reality check for when you MIGHT need to do so. Suppose you fell of a motorcycle or bike or whatever, and you knew you could roll off it. You might, in that split second, adjust yourself best to center your roll to avoid serious injury.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure......

Compromise, I definitely wouldn't learn ukemi for the first time on a side walk lol How many beginners land on their shoulders or worse, heads. A good compromise, I wouldn't put a 6th kyu on the side walk.

Have you tried ukemi at the beach? It seems to really force you to make good connection with the ground, and it forces your falls to be wide. The ground is always moving below you, so if you are too tight you will splat!, or worse, you'll pull a muscle. So sand training is I found out helps keep those falls wide.

Last edited by RED : 05-18-2010 at 11:06 AM.

MM
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Old 05-18-2010, 11:34 AM   #29
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

I'l have to try some sand rolls....Thanks!

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Old 05-18-2010, 11:55 AM   #30
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

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Michael McNamara wrote: View Post
I'l have to try some sand rolls....Thanks!
Try it up hill

MM
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Old 05-18-2010, 02:07 PM   #31
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

Quote:
Michael McNamara wrote: View Post
OK....So I'm practicing Ukemi at home for when I get tested. I decided to do it on cement with a thin yoga mat on top.

I must say, it actually forces me to do the Ukemi correctly, as leaning a little to one side or the other on the finish will smash either of my of my posterior pelvic spine regions (The two nubs that stick out in the back.). The hard surfaces forces me to roll along the back center line which feels perfect.

Try it sometime..........(Ouch!!)
I used to have some simple though solid ukemi skills and I credit much of that from training in the parking lot on my lunch breaks. As has been pointed out it can be dangerous so a person should ease into something like that (e.g. I started from seiza and worked my way to standing, just as I did when first learning basic rolling form). I also recommend rolling in confined locations and using various shaped debris that forces you to change directions mid-roll. There were a couple times I was saved from hitting something sharp because I got used to shifting on the fly.
I used to experiment with whatever I could think of: compact movements, big spread-out movements; different surfaces; etc. It's not stupid to push your ukemi training to the proverbial edge as long as you're careful about it.

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Old 05-19-2010, 07:42 AM   #32
Eva Antonia
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

Hi all,

as to wide legged ukemi (I never thought that term might mean this!), my favourite is this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMpBpM38TMg&feature=fvw
Maybe it's not so pedagogically well described but certainly impressing to look at.
I tried to imitate it at the dojo but it didn't work :-(

And also I do occasionally (soft) ukemi on outdoor soils (for fun, obviously), I'd admit that there are some throws upon which I'd never be able to fall soft enough (like shiho nage...)

Best regards,

Eva
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Old 05-19-2010, 09:54 AM   #33
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

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Eva Röben wrote: View Post
Hi all,

as to wide legged ukemi (I never thought that term might mean this!), my favourite is this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMpBpM38TMg&feature=fvw
Maybe it's not so pedagogically well described but certainly impressing to look at.
I tried to imitate it at the dojo but it didn't work :-(

And also I do occasionally (soft) ukemi on outdoor soils (for fun, obviously), I'd admit that there are some throws upon which I'd never be able to fall soft enough (like shiho nage...)

Best regards,

Eva
hey, those are some really good soft ukemi practices. Thanks for sharing the video.

MM
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Old 05-19-2010, 12:48 PM   #34
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

Quote:
Eva Röben wrote: View Post
Hi all,

as to wide legged ukemi (I never thought that term might mean this!), my favourite is this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMpBpM38TMg&feature=fvw
Maybe it's not so pedagogically well described but certainly impressing to look at.
I tried to imitate it at the dojo but it didn't work :-(

And also I do occasionally (soft) ukemi on outdoor soils (for fun, obviously), I'd admit that there are some throws upon which I'd never be able to fall soft enough (like shiho nage...)

Best regards,

Eva
Eva,

We do a pretty different approach to ukemi from shihonage. Here is a clip of me explaining this ukemi from my last testing. The nage isn't a Yoshinkan practitioner so its not exactly exact...but the idea is nage (shi'te in Yoshinkanese) controls uke all the way (pretty much straight) down. So uke lands on shoulders first and lands as hard as nage deems...which shouldn't be too hard b/c its going to a pin vice a throw. The landing is actually soft regardless b/c uke's feet stay planted so that connection is there. Tucking the chin is obviously important, but I also teach to put uke's ear against his/her manipulated arm to prevent shoulder separation.

This ukemi requires control on the part of shite and some flexibility by uke...but its not like a step back breakfall (which I do second) where there is a variance between the speed and height that uke and nage share that can sometimes create abrupt landings as uke is falling away from nage's center of control so nage has to move forward to keep up. This is, of course, shihonage osae..not shihonage...um, nage.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G66spr_o6Wg

Last edited by Adam Huss : 05-19-2010 at 12:52 PM. Reason: ...

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Old 05-19-2010, 02:09 PM   #35
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

I could never do those types of ukemi. My own fault. I just don't have the flexibility in my thighs to fall back like that. I end up splatting going straight back.

Our Shihonage ukemi is bit different. We follow our hand down by keeping it close to our ear, with the upper body tilted towards nage. Sort of fall like we following your hand. It I guess gives you the option to take a break fall out if the nage suddenly turn on you.
As long as you didn't break fall out of it, it wouldn't be to bad if you had to take it on cement.

This video is only the break fall from it...but you can see how it is easily turned out of for a soft fall if nage doesn't crank you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WYZPUJNTIU

MM
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Old 05-19-2010, 02:17 PM   #36
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

Ah yes, here is another difference with Yoshinkan aikido;
We typically do Oyo Waza Shihonage Kuzushi...where the shihonage uke typically does jumping breakfall out of (we call jump break falls Zenp Hyaku Ukemi) involves keeping uke's arm straight.

This is still throwing to any direction but with uke's arm locked out. One reason we do this helps prevent injury to uke's elbow, I can ask my teacher for other reasons next time I see him. I know I am comfortable breakfalling out of a bent arm shihonage throw (as I've trained aikikai style where that is common)...but I don't think too many people are as comfortable. I don't think its bad at all if you know its coming, but I guess it could catch some people by surprise...which is probably why they don't like it done to them too much.

Anyway...here is our shihonage..nage variation (not done by me!)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9F04U92suk:

Last edited by Adam Huss : 05-19-2010 at 02:18 PM. Reason: ...

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Old 05-19-2010, 02:21 PM   #37
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

...and if you look around the 32 second mark you see slow mo of a typical Yoshinkan jumping breakfall...we try to keep our plant foot on the mat a long as possible and put the breaking arm as far ahead of our body as possible in order to reduce the hight of the fall and break/slow momentum before our body passes a vertical axis (where weight is then generated really smartly down).

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Old 05-19-2010, 02:26 PM   #38
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

Here is an interesting clip of another Yoshinkan practitioner doing a different variation of the ukemi (we actually teach specific ukemi for each technique). I haven't seen this one before...but will try it out next time I get the chance. Plus it shows the full shihonage (which I didn't upload to save time) and how ours starts of with a ubishime...which is a little different.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAVP7...eature=related

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Old 05-19-2010, 02:30 PM   #39
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

So anyway...with a standard Yoshinkan Kihon variation we focus very strongly and making it like a sword cut...with uke's elbow being the tip. So uke's elbow is pointed outward vice upward as some do. In this way, its very difficult (if not impossible) for uke to do a jumping breakfall out of it. Hence our different variation for nage waza. For osae waza...we pin uke by his upper shoulders...the bridge in the lower back (that you see in the one I did and the one I uploaded from Japan) is due to nage bringing uke's back of forearm against the mat and pushing elbow forward...this bridges uke's body, hence the different ukemi.

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Old 05-19-2010, 07:03 PM   #40
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

We pretty much think of shihonage the same way I think. Shihonage is a bokken cut. It is standard to pretty much treat it like that in our style I believe. I've seen people mix it up slightly though. I've seen shoman, and yokomen cuts with shihonage in our style. I think this is why we take the ukemi we do. We have to be very sensitive to follow the nage incase it turns to a yokomen type cut, or any circular frankly to protect the shoulder. Our style also always castes out, never down to the ground below us. I think its because we put a lot of emphasis on randori where it is better to have uke far away from you than at your feet.

One time a teacher told me "shihonage is a sword cut.. don't end with your sword tip on the ground directly below you...that's bad bokken kata. Keep the tip of your bokken pointing forward, you have a better chance of getting the pointy bit inside some one if it is facing in front of you, not the ground, unless you think the ground might attack you." lol
But I think every style develops the way it does for its own reasons. It just depends on what you are emphasizing.

Last edited by RED : 05-19-2010 at 07:07 PM.

MM
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Old 05-19-2010, 07:11 PM   #41
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
This is still throwing to any direction but with uke's arm locked out. One reason we do this helps prevent injury to uke's elbow, I can ask my teacher for other reasons next time I see him. I know I am comfortable breakfalling out of a bent arm shihonage throw (as I've trained aikikai style where that is common)...but I don't think too many people are as comfortable. I don't think its bad at all if you know its coming, but I guess it could catch some people by surprise...which is probably why they don't like it done to them too much.
The throw I think itsn't hard to take. For shihonage, kotegaeshi,same principle us. Keep your head wear your hand is and the body will follow.

MM
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Old 05-20-2010, 08:42 AM   #42
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

Dear Adam; dear Maggie,

thanks for sharing these videos. In fact, in our dojo shiho nage falls are taught as in Adam's video, but unfortunately I have some very weird wrists that turn in their articulation so the soft-backwards-letting-down-fall ends up with a 180 ° torn wrist for me (still standing). Doesn't hurt when doing it one or two times but repetition is very bad. And tori obviously gets deeply disturbed (and sorry, like "oh, did I hurt you?").

So I just do the Maggie-video-type version anticipating what will be done with my wrist (arouses criticism from toris who want to keep control up to the last moment). And yes, it is easier if there is an elbow lock - but then that is exactly what friendly and considerate tories avoid in case uke wants to do the backward fall...but my problem is not the fall as such, but the quiet and soft landing. Maybe one day that also will come. Never give up hope :-)

Best regards,

Eva
(aikikai not yoshinkan - but that changes nothing about the issue)
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Old 05-20-2010, 09:43 AM   #43
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
Here is an interesting clip of another Yoshinkan practitioner doing a different variation of the ukemi (we actually teach specific ukemi for each technique). I haven't seen this one before...but will try it out next time I get the chance. Plus it shows the full shihonage (which I didn't upload to save time) and how ours starts of with a ubishime...which is a little different.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAVP7...eature=related
Nice Vid! Good explanation on principles! Nothing like most videos that wind around too much... that ukemi is one I'm trying to master. It looks pretty simple in that kihon example, but applying it in kino nagare is something else. Its also one of the most safest ukemi to take for shihonage.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 05-20-2010, 11:25 AM   #44
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

Quote:
Eva Röben wrote: View Post
Dear Adam; dear Maggie,

thanks for sharing these videos. In fact, in our dojo shiho nage falls are taught as in Adam's video, but unfortunately I have some very weird wrists that turn in their articulation so the soft-backwards-letting-down-fall ends up with a 180 ° torn wrist for me (still standing). Doesn't hurt when doing it one or two times but repetition is very bad. And tori obviously gets deeply disturbed (and sorry, like "oh, did I hurt you?").

So I just do the Maggie-video-type version anticipating what will be done with my wrist (arouses criticism from toris who want to keep control up to the last moment). And yes, it is easier if there is an elbow lock - but then that is exactly what friendly and considerate tories avoid in case uke wants to do the backward fall...but my problem is not the fall as such, but the quiet and soft landing. Maybe one day that also will come. Never give up hope :-)

Best regards,

Eva
(aikikai not yoshinkan - but that changes nothing about the issue)
Nice nage won't try to break your elbow lol... unless they know you can take the break fall for them, and make them look good

Ouch, that sounds painful. Good luck in training and your wrist.

MM
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Old 05-21-2010, 07:35 AM   #45
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

Just found this video Sorry if you've all already seen it

http://www.youtube.com/user/AikikaiA...21/ogDN0ZghdQs
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Old 05-21-2010, 11:36 AM   #46
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

Yes, Maggie turned us on to Waite Sensei earlier in the thread as an example of their unique take on ukemi. Thanks anyway though!

v/r

A

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Old 05-21-2010, 02:03 PM   #47
Walter Martindale
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

Quote:
Michael McNamara wrote: View Post
OK....So I'm practicing Ukemi at home for when I get tested. I decided to do it on cement with a thin yoga mat on top.

I must say, it actually forces me to do the Ukemi correctly, as leaning a little to one side or the other on the finish will smash either of my of my posterior pelvic spine regions (The two nubs that stick out in the back.). The hard surfaces forces me to roll along the back center line which feels perfect.

Try it sometime..........(Ouch!!)
Kawahara shihan (Canada) encourages people to be able to do ukemi on pavement. Such practice discourages one from putting their knees down firmly on the "mat". If mats are too soft, you don't learn where your corners are - you know the corners - they're the bits and pieces that get hurt if your ukemi isn't round enough.
Walter
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Old 05-21-2010, 09:52 PM   #48
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

Soft mats suck...especially for kata and the like

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Old 06-14-2010, 12:01 PM   #49
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

This thread seems to have evolved from mae ukemi on hard bedding to breakfalls indoors. I'll try to give my opinion on both since the art of falling lies close to my heart, though I don't claim to be an expert on the subject.
Outdoors (sand, gravel, grass, asphalt, concrete) falling is very different from indoors (tatami). I once tried using the martial arts standard mae ukemi outdoors but ended up with an injured shoulder about one hour later. I used to play volleyball for many (~10) years on hard floors (often concrete covered with a very thin plastic mat) and never hurt myself doing both rolling and diving moves (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g34mcY9vs8k). I've also had some "professional" training (supervision) with very basic parkour.

-- My experience and strong opinion is that you should never, do martial arts ukemi anywhere other than on tatami, you're bound to injure yourself. --

If you want to do mae ukemi on harder bedding, use parkour techniques. Here's a great tutorial which also explains most problems which you'll face when doing this type of rolls (including the ones mentioned by the OP): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6I1J0zmE7U
Be careful on uneven surfaces and what's hiding in them, grass and sand are both treacherous.
As for tatami breakfalls, coming from Judo I slap the mat a lot, both with my feet and my hand+arm. I think it's essential if you are to distribute the force of the throw+gravity properly, away from your body and your spine (back+neck). Extending the legs and keeping the top one floating in the air or slapping the floor with your foot on the outside of your lower leg is essential to preserving the scrotum.

Here's me taking ukemi, exhausted after tiresome keiko, to show you a little of what I mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEao4EzaM0w

Beware, using your foot for slapping could hurt your knee and ankle (or it may wear them out over time) if you're not precise with the angle with which you slap the ground. It's essential to know how to do this though since you might get caught in a throw where both your arms are locked up, like jujigarami.

As you may also notice, I try to stand up as straight as possible always focusing on how my knees and feet are positioned. Knees take faaaar more damage from standing up poorly than your body will ever do just by being thrown on the ground. - To be fair I don't agree at all with what's been said about your body beeing worn out by falls, quite the opposite I'm of the belief that it strengthens your flesh, muscles and bones when executed well. (Granted you're not suffering from brittleness of the bones or something similiar). -
I love falling and getting slapped like a wet cloth into the mat. I'm working on relaxation in my breakfalls, much according to the principles in the videos posted in this thread (Myanmar and USFAikido). However, I think there's a martial flaw in doing the spread legs fall in jiuwaza or randori: once on the ground you're essentially sitting up with your back to your partner and are open to all sorts of nasty attacks. This works (most of the time) in aikido where we usually don't have our partner all over us as soon as we've been thrown, but for Judo and BJJ you want to stay low and quickly shift your full focus back to your partner and what they're doing (stay connected).

Example, the first throw you see in this clip (1:30):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gj1UMNSxRw#t=1m28s

It's beautiful, graceful and comfortable (Anna has such lovely ukemi), but not good martial behaviour. This type of ukemi is on the other hand well suited for breakfalls on hard beddings if you're unable to do mae ukemi (parkour style). I might cover breakfalls on hard beddings another time, this post is long enough as it is :-)

Thank you for reading!
Robin
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Old 08-24-2010, 02:23 AM   #50
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Re: Mae Ukemi - Practicing the HARD way (Literally)

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
methink, the ukemi in this video is what she meant http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5U2E0kA8_8
Hmmm... I notice that they all practise by touching the ground not with their palms but with the knuckle side of their hands? That is a terrible habit for ukemi, totally the opposite of the reflex we should have. Is that part of this soft stuff?
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