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Old 08-17-2010, 12:42 PM   #176
Thomas Campbell
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post

Occasionally, Route 28 near Boston takes you to internal power.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post

Well now Tom, you need to be careful. [snip]

real IP/aiki [snip]

Cheers
Dan
Sorry, Dan, I wasn't clear . . . I was talking about batteries from Boston Power, not "real IP/aiki" (whatever the hell that is).

http://www.boston-power.com

They've developed new lithium-ion batteries with really clean lines of power, no pulsing required to muscle through gaps in connection . . . excellent internal chemistry. Environmentally sustainable too!

What is "real IP/aiki"? And why would I ask about it on this forum? Apparently no one posting here knows much about it: http://aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.p...&postcount=128

If you find someone who knows anything about IP/aiki, please let me know so I can tell my friends. They've been asking.

But as I mentioned, I was talking about batteries. And I should have said Route 9, not Route 28. My bad.
 
Old 08-17-2010, 10:15 PM   #177
AllanF
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
Sorry, Dan, I wasn't clear . . . I was talking about batteries from Boston Power, not "real IP/aiki" (whatever the hell that is).

http://www.boston-power.com

They've developed new lithium-ion batteries with really clean lines of power, no pulsing required to muscle through gaps in connection . . . excellent internal chemistry. Environmentally sustainable too!

What is "real IP/aiki"? And why would I ask about it on this forum? Apparently no one posting here knows much about it: http://aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.p...&postcount=128

If you find someone who knows anything about IP/aiki, please let me know so I can tell my friends. They've been asking.

But as I mentioned, I was talking about batteries. And I should have said Route 9, not Route 28. My bad.
This battery place sound like it might be worth a look! I do like a good battery!
 
Old 08-17-2010, 10:24 PM   #178
Lee Salzman
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Allan Featherstone wrote: View Post
This battery place sound like it might be worth a look! I do like a good battery!
Chinese battery technology is rumored to be exceptional...
 
Old 08-18-2010, 08:15 AM   #179
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
You probably won't know if all you know is shoulder driven movement in terms of feel.

There are some things you can watch for. For example for suburi watch the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mbE5PAKfAU

The motion begins in the middle of the body and propagates outwards into the arms and legs. This forces the arms back (and the weightshift back). This is followed by a closing motion as the weight shifts forwards. You might notice some motion in the front leg as the body becomes convex to offset the "crunch" in the middle.
Hi Hunter
Well I don't like it, and you can bet the house on the fact that there are "others" in certain koryu arts who wouldn't look twice at it either. There are better ways to move and frankly his body movements are a dead give away of what NOT to do if you were looking for mobility and consistent power. This ties in to what I was talking about with spear shaking. Some guys opt for this certain store and release model that can issue good power, and it echoes what they do in their crossing hands, but like this guy here, you can see it a mile off, it is limited and it has a start and finish that is both limiting and obvious. There are better ways to move where the power is continuously accessible and very free. That way of moving would never cut it in certain circles, but because it does have some power it can fool a lot of people into thinking "This must be... the... way."
I would never move like that and yet I cut through 3" trees. Some can try to convince you and others here it is muscle. People can believe whatever internet nonsense they like. yet I have taught women and smaller men to do the same thing. Weapons can be very defining when it comes to muscle use.
Most people with real weapons experience know this already.

Leaving you aside for a moment I would address this whole "essence of everything" theory that keeps coming up. It isn't said, it is just implied. Internal movement is not all the same, internal skills in use even more so (although there are certain key components in IP that are universal).

This video and others with Ueshiba sword cutting have been talked to death here. They are yet another example of people in certain circles talking past their own skill level and thinking they get it. Lumping the body mechanics of Ueshiba and Tohei together (Tohei and Ueshiba did NOT move the same way) and then arm chair quarterbacking the body use in Japanese weapons and lumping them together as well.
I have seen certain so called internal coaches advertising their movement is directly related to the use of Japanese weapons, when it is glaringly obvious, and well discussed in certain... cough... "informed circles" that you just cannot move that way with weapons. Of course you would have to know the difference to understand why. Some of these things are pretty direct and easily shown, better still demonstrated by taking apart senior exponents in those arts. Talk is cheap.
People carefully qualify that not all internal training is the same....but when you see them on all these boards discussing ; Judo, jujutsu, Karate, Taichi, Bagua, Xing I, AIkido, Daito ryu and Koryu weapons with their "essence of everything" theories without ever managing to actually show competent skills in those arts or clearly demonstrate...to those who ARE competent in those arts, how their own arts operate with and without IP/aiki components and where they make a difference and instead default back to talking...about the "essence of everything" theory, it leaves me and others to wonder. Again ...talk is cheap. Oh well.
Power is a good thing, but it is the first baby step on your way to true competence, it can be overcome. I guess when people are unfamiliar with that type of power it can be impressive. However, expressing IP/aiki in a full range of movement in martial disciplines involves a more sophisticated and complex understanding than that.
I guess I will just have to agree with them.
"IP/aiki training is not all the same."
As they say....buyer beware. It pays to go to a lot of places and get what you need as you grow in the arts.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-18-2010 at 08:28 AM.
 
Old 08-18-2010, 08:38 AM   #180
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Edit:
Wanted to be clear that I was not equating his movement to spear shaking but rather there is a quality of telegraphing and one-stop action. It might be okay for solo training but I just wouldn't bother when you can do other things that are a continuos delivery of power with better mobility.
Dan
 
Old 08-18-2010, 08:42 AM   #181
Mike Sigman
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Leaving you aside for a moment I would address this whole "essence of everything" theory that keeps coming up. It isn't said, it is just implied. Internal movement is not all the same, internal skills in use even more so (although there are certain key components in IP that are universal).
Well, you've covered your bases both ways, so which is it.... is there an "essence of everything" or is there not? If there are certain key components that are universal, that seems to say "essence of everything" to me. In terms of there being a number of variations, I've said that many times for many years. If you don't think there is an "essence of everything" then you miss the point of everyone using the Yin-Yang cosmology and where it probably started. Show me an Asian martial-art that doesn't justify itself through Yin-Yang, Heaven-Earth-Man, and so on... the ones that use that cosmology and all its secret meanings are the ones that use the same core principles that we're talking about. Including the hara as a basis for movement. Are there coarser, less-informed styles that don't use the hara very much/well (and other things, too)? Of course. The essence is the same though... at least enough that the general statement is pretty obvious and is recognized by every real Chinese expert I've spoken to about it.
Quote:
This video and others with Ueshiba sword cutting have been talked to death here. They are yet another example of people in certain circles talking past their own skill level and thinking they get it.
Poor Ueshiba. If only he'd lived near Massachusetts.
Quote:
Lumping the body mechanics of Ueshiba and Tohei together (Tohei and Ueshiba did NOT move the same way)
Odd.... I've said exactly that same thing a number of times right on this very forum. It's archived. However, there are aspects of Ueshiba's and Tohei's movements that are same/similar because of the particular approach they both took and Tohei admits that he learned that part of it from Ueshiba (or at least got the inspiration, although he may have gotten the how-to from Tempu Nakamura). In other words, there is a general approach to internal strength that is fairly clear in both Ueshiba and Tohei. Easy to see. It's also easy to see when someone may have some other methodology of I.S. and is applying it to their version of Aikido (or Aikido-related techniques).

The point I was making was about the hara/dantien and that the usage of the body through that manner is what I see spoken about and demonstrated by people like Ueshiba and Tohei (and some others)... so if someone wants a "path to internal power", that's certainly an important consideration. And it's also a bit harder to do than people think.

Are there shortcuts of various "purity" out there? Sure. And I encourage people to have some skills rather than no skills, so half a loaf is better than none. At the moment a lot of people have seen and understood the logic and applicability of various jin/kokyu-related skills, but IMO that's just the start of future possibilities. It's nice to watch. The people who are still sitting in the bleachers thinking "this too will pass", that's interesting to watch also. I enjoy the human drama.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 08-18-2010, 08:46 AM   #182
Mike Sigman
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Edit:
Wanted to be clear that I was not equating his movement to spear shaking but rather there is a quality of telegraphing and one-stop action. It might be okay for solo training but I just wouldn't bother when you can do other things that are a continuos delivery of power with better mobility.
Dan
I believe that statement's a keeper, Dan. People should put it in their files where they can look at it often.
 
Old 08-18-2010, 08:57 AM   #183
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Well I happen to agree with some of your points. I was covering both bases as both bases need to be covered.
Poor Ueshiba? You are insinuating something past my meaning. The only reference being "his movements have been talked to death here" by people who don't do weapons or have any IP/aiki skills to speak of.
How many people have talked about his movement with weapons...including you?

Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-18-2010 at 09:00 AM.
 
Old 08-18-2010, 09:26 AM   #184
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I believe that statement's a keeper, Dan. People should put it in their files where they can look at it often.
Go right ahead. That store and release model is not as universal as you make it out to be across the board, It would also never fly with more informed sources. Again we can go back to certain core principles, but they can be expressed in different ways. Not the least of which is this guy stepping up into it and the energy drawing back at the end. Hunter drew attention to his legs, which to me is a dead give away of certain things I would NEVER do.
Surely, someone like you would know other ways that leave the legs more mobile and do not involve that particular movement, but also incorporate the use of the hara in a snapping motion? It is a well known concept in dantien use in certain ICMA and fits in well with a variety of weapons and empty hand!

Archives are good. Just like that taichi fighter video you put up here and called it a good fight and example of IP... where everyone else saw what I saw...he was paired with a newbie who had his own hands down through most of the fight as he threw himself at the guy.
You see what you can see...and you own it. Certain things come with more experience, Mike we all can't know everything.
I strongly advocate archives. I enjoy blowing up your ridiculous internet statements about me (and the ones you make in private).... in person where it counts; I use shoulders for power, not using dantien, not having internal power, only knowing simple jin skills, not knowing breath power, and other tripe.
As most will tell you; I treat you in a much more even handed and even complimentary fashion behind closed doors.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-18-2010 at 09:40 AM.
 
Old 08-18-2010, 10:22 AM   #185
phitruong
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
That store and release model is not as universal as you make it out to be across the board, It would also never fly with more informed sources. Again we can go back to certain core principles, but they can be expressed in different ways.
Dan
what other model(s) out there? are you saying that the S&R model isn't ideal for weapon? reason(s), please? or at least some hints? is it because S&R take too long to setup and telegraph the movement?
 
Old 08-18-2010, 10:47 AM   #186
Mike Sigman
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Go right ahead. That store and release model is not as universal as you make it out to be across the board, It would also never fly with more informed sources.
Really? I suspect you're going from some basic how-to training things shown in workshops and assuming that's the end-product, Dan. "Store-and-Release" is not universal in Asian martial arts? Thanks for the info.

Quote:
Just like that taichi fighter video you put up here and called it a good fight and example of IP... where everyone else saw what I saw...he was paired with a newbie who had his own hands down through most of the fight as he threw himself at the guy.
Pooh... go look at it again. I simply meant that it was something outside of the usual push-hands, which is all the most westerners have ever seen. But, you're just pouting, so I won't hold it against you. Dan, see if you can say something about the hara and how to use it, if you want to show me that you're a real expert.
Quote:
As most will tell you; I treat you in a much more even handed and even complimentary fashion behind closed doors.
Dan, take a look at the comments I've made and the how-to expositions I've written. I'm interested in the topic. Period. The asides about personalities, who's greatest, "friendship", yada, yada, I see as simply a waste of time by the non-serious. This subject is very complex/deep and it's easy to sidetrack things into another round of one-eyed kings in the kingdom of the blind... I think it needs to go further than that. If people engage in a serious discussion, I treat them seriously. If they claim expertise but can't really explain things simply, then I don't take them seriously. For the people who are serious, I try to make comments that will be helpful to them sometime (such as the one about the hara and the indications that there are more matters in this complex issue). That's all I'm interested in. The personality discussions I realize are going to be experienced on non-technically-serious forums like this one, Rum Soaked Fist... to some degree. But I think they're a waste of time. Let's move on, shall we?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 08-18-2010, 10:55 AM   #187
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
what other model(s) out there? are you saying that the S&R model isn't ideal for weapon? reason(s), please? or at least some hints? is it because S&R take too long to setup and telegraph the movement?
Well contrary to some pretentious "one way to do things" model...I am only going to say that yes, sometimes the S&R model you see discussed and shown here is too slow and telegraphing.
Stand there with a spear in your hand and do not move your arms or shoulders and make the spear shake up and down and spiral in and out with only your body. Instantaneously transitioning, non-stop.
There is more than one way to do certain things. For certain purposes, one is better than the other.
Cheers
Dan
 
Old 08-18-2010, 11:04 AM   #188
Mike Sigman
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well contrary to some pretentious "one way to do things" model...I am only going to say that yes, sometimes the S&R model you see discussed and shown here is too slow and telegraphing.
Stand there with a spear in your hand and do not move your arms or shoulders and make the spear shake up and down and spiral in and out with only your body. Instantaneously transitioning, non-stop.
There is more than one way to do certain things. For certain purposes, one is better than the other.
Well, gee, that's odd. I watched Chen Xiaowang release 9 times in about one second, yet his beginning training had these sorta slow-but-correct store-and-releases. Think maybe it's a progression? In terms of speed of handling anything, I think you're probably misunderstanding the training as the end-product. But then again, what you're saying is much like the people who watch a Taiji form and say "it's too slow to ever be effective" and they make jokes about it, displaying their own ignorance more than anything else.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 08-18-2010, 11:05 AM   #189
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The personality discussions I realize are going to be experienced on non-technically-serious forums like this one, Rum Soaked Fist... to some degree. But I think they're a waste of time. Let's move on, shall we?
You fire away at people...then claim personal attack pretty much as a standard MO, then ask to move on.

Quote:
I suspect you're going from some basic how-to training things shown in workshops and assuming that's the end-product, Dan. "Store-and-Release" is not universal in Asian martial arts? Thanks for the info.
Did I say that? No, I did not.
Your stating that all store and release movement is all the same is just a suggestion of where you are at in your own understanding from workshops as an outsider looking in. Fine by me, I'm sure you'll get a lot of traction out of that in certain circles.

Dan
 
Old 08-18-2010, 11:06 AM   #190
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Hi Dan, Mike,

Can you both please move away from your discussions of each other's posting manners and redirect your thoughts towards the topic of the thread?

Thank you,

-- Jun

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Old 08-18-2010, 11:09 AM   #191
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well, gee, that's odd. I watched Chen Xiaowang release 9 times in about one second, yet his beginning training had these sorta slow-but-correct store-and-releases. Think maybe it's a progression? In terms of speed of handling anything, I think you're probably misunderstanding the training as the end-product. But then again, what you're saying is much like the people who watch a Taiji form and say "it's too slow to ever be effective" and they make jokes about it, displaying their own ignorance more than anything else.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Continuing to misquote me and lump me in with those I argue against myself does what?

Thats a fascinating comparison using CXW. Are you saying that the MJER fella is doing the same opening and closing as CXW? No, he isn't. The fact that you think so, says everything that need be said.
 
Old 08-18-2010, 11:17 AM   #192
phitruong
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Stand there with a spear in your hand and do not move your arms or shoulders and make the spear shake up and down and spiral in and out with only your body. Instantaneously transitioning, non-stop.
There is more than one way to do certain things. For certain purposes, one is better than the other.
Cheers
Dan
are you talking about winding and unwinding (W&UW) model? if you are, wouldn't that just another form of S&R, as in winding to store and unwinding to release? or is it something entirely different?
 
Old 08-18-2010, 11:36 AM   #193
Mike Sigman
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Continuing to misquote me and lump me in with those I argue against myself does what?

Thats a fascinating comparison using CXW. Are you saying that the MJER fella is doing the same opening and closing as CXW? No, he isn't. The fact that you think so, says everything that need be said.
Dan, I think just about everyone understands that you feel a need to pose as my senior in all these things. You needn't carry on the charade in every post, since the point has been made.

I've started a new thread on store-and-release so that that portion of the topic doesn't get lost in a silly argument because you don't understand the logic behind store-and-release and why it's everywhere. But read it and then let's pretend that you already knew all that and that it's "just basic stuff" and go from there.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 08-18-2010, 03:09 PM   #194
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Better than you? Well, actually I think you have a good bit of knowledge, Mike. What you can actually do with it remains to be seen. I don't misquote ...you..nor do I have a need to come after you, like you do to me. I think it is simply unfortunate that you try so hard to convince people the discussion is as narrow as your own views.

Good luck in your training
Dan
 
Old 08-18-2010, 03:32 PM   #195
akiy
 
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Thread closed.

-- Jun

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Old 08-19-2010, 10:11 AM   #196
gregstec
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

And another one bites the dust....

Looks like you forgot to lock it, Jun

Last edited by gregstec : 08-19-2010 at 10:14 AM.
 

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