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Old 08-12-2010, 08:34 AM   #126
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Mike, FWIW, when Dan talks about his accolades, he is speaking the reality of aiki, and not necessarily being arrogant nor is he putting down others. At least that's how I see it. Perhaps you should adjust the way you see him and then maybe you can start a "discussion" that you want to happen?
There many paths to power and they are not all the same. One important feature is you need teachers and "friends" that will actually help you learn, Those are relationships you have developed and the path was not completed....on your own...in order to learn.
I feel like quoting Chun from Remo Williams "Most intelligent people know this already"
Anyway, food for thought in these "who needs friends for budo" discussions!!

There are things to learn, things you will be shown, that really do not work in high pressure environment that goes past push hands. You may have power and think its going to work...until you meet certain people who have IP/aiki that was developed under stress testing in a more pressured environment. You might even find it is the same material that two people were working on, One knows the material, the other "knows" the material.
You might find and any two people wo really do have IP/aiki but are incapable of expressing it to the same degree.
As is typical in budo discussions the one will decry the merits of the other.
I like the myth of the Samurai and the monk:
The monk developed his dantian and power in breath training and meditation on a 3' platform. no regular person could push him over.
Up walks this certain Samurai who launches him off the platform, saying "You can develop your dantian sitting there safe from the world, I developed mind under stress and in movement."

It is a kept story, a budo lesson perhaps kept and passed down (real or not) to demonstrate exactly what is being discussed here.
I think most reasonable people can understand these things.
  • There are people with aiki with little by way of any real connection and the aiki is done by way of technique and is but a mask.
  • There are people with Aiki whos bodies have developed over time with various measures of I.P. to support it but are still lacking. They are "good enough" for most martial artists to be impressed.
  • There are people with a deeper understanding of aiki than others but who still suffer from mediocre internal power but the former makes up for the lack of the later and they are impressive.
  • There are people who have developed their skills only in practice within their own arts, this can bring serious developmental flaws they will never see.

Then there are people with internal power and an understanding of aiki who have resolved the dilemmas and the complexities involved in using it across the board in many different venues. Their mutually supported strengths make a well developed whole; the internal power matched with internal skills, that create aiki ...all expressed with an array of application and skill learned under stress.

It is unfortunate that there are those in the martial arts; internal or no, fool hardy enough to think that practicing alone and in push hands or kata prepares them to go up against the former. They are the truly arrogant ones. They do not know their place. They seek to have, what the others have earned, without the paying price. Their first step is to always try to intellectually reduce the value of those efforts. I have seen it in as simple an example as some Iai people who dare to think they were prepared for men who also train the sword, and then freestlying it in armor.

I suspect it's always been that way.


In any case, I think relationships and friendship...sustained realtionship...is in my mind a key componant to real devolpment and a complete martial artists; internal or no.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-12-2010 at 08:49 AM.
 
Old 08-12-2010, 08:37 AM   #127
HL1978
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
So how does all of that relate to your internal-strength skills? Dantien/hara usage? And so on? The question in the topic is in relation to "What paths lead to internal power?" In relation to Ueshiba and Takeda, would "plays well with other children" have been a known factor in their I.S. development?

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Mike,

I think you would at least need people that you trust in order to:

A) show you these skills

B) be honest enough to tell you wether or not you are progressing or doing the exercises correctly. Otherwise its easy to get self deluded.

C) When you initially start you need someone else pushing on you so that you can feel the difference between proper and improper movement. Perhaps once you have some understanding of this, you can do tons of solo training because you can recognize the feel on your own.

D) If you have a group of somekind, you are more likely to stick with the training and will likely make better progress since you can bounce ideas off one another. Sure if you are hardcore enough you don't need peer pressure.

At the end of the day maybe you don't need friendship (its not going to hurt), but it does help to surround yourself with commited people who are interested in these skills if for any other reason than having a variety of body types and skill levels to play with.
 
Old 08-12-2010, 08:55 AM   #128
Mike Sigman
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
At the end of the day maybe you don't need friendship (its not going to hurt), but it does help to surround yourself with commited people who are interested in these skills if for any other reason than having a variety of body types and skill levels to play with.
I don't disagree with what you're saying. Having helpful 'friends' or 'partners' (that's really what you mean, I gather) is certainly a plus and I haven't said anything against it. "Friendship", "Wu De", "spirituality" and other intangibles, though, I'd suggest are not necessary as part of "path that leads to internal power". First a person needs information and someone to show them the basics and get them started.

I've also noted a number of times that I don't think there are any real experts in I.S. posting on this forum and in fact I think that at the moment most people have only general ideas about the full spectrum of I.S. skills. I.e., I don't think the information is complete, so before people get too committed to anything they should understand that there's a lot more information out there. "Friends" may be helpful, but just like some of the Aikido (or Taiji or Xingyi or karate or whatever) 'teachers' that have helped cause the current problem, an "I.S. teacher" who has incomplete information can be as much of a problem as any other teacher.

So yeah, you need assistance from partners and from teacher(s), but you mainly have to depend on yourself and understand that even some of the most well-meaning "teachers" and "friends" can put you unintentionally in the trick-bag if what they know isn't quite as helpful overall as you may hope out of your own loyalty to them.

I've seen some people who simply stagnate by working out with the same partners/pals for years. You have to look hard at results and you have to know what results you should be looking for.

2 cents.

Mike
 
Old 08-12-2010, 09:11 AM   #129
Mike Sigman
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
It is unfortunate that there are those in the martial arts; internal or no, fool hardy enough to think that practicing alone and in push hands or kata prepares them to go up against the former. They are the truly arrogant ones. They do not know their place. They seek to have, what the others have earned, without the paying price. Their first step is to always try to intellectually reduce the value of those efforts. I have seen it in as simple an example as some Iai people who dare to think they were prepared for men who also train the sword, and then freestlying it in armor.
I know two different people who claim to have internal strength skills. One of them has only very rudimentary actual skills, but covers the rest of it because he can (well, could) fight pretty well and beat up on a lot of people who weren't really good fighters; this guy has a pretty loud mouth in regard to telling people how good he is (or, was). The other guy has, IMO, pretty good I.S. skills, in the real and technical sense and he's a pretty good fighter. Both guys have been involved in car wrecks in recent years, and the loudmouth can't really fight anymore; the other guy wasn't injured quite as badly, but he's still limited in his mobility.

Let's say some newby wanted to learn internal-strength skills.... which of those two guys should he go learn from. The guy who had a few rudimentary skills and a lot of strength.. or the guy who actually had and understood internal strength? The guy with the actual technical knowledge would be my suggestion. If someone learns actual internal strength, then they can go apply it to "fightin'", qigongs, or tiddlywinks correctly. I.e., it doesn't matter, IMO, how you use it (that's up to you), as long as you're doing it correctly. The story about one guy pushing another guy doesn't tell me much except that "winning" seems to be raising its head as an issue, while I thought that we were still just talking about how to get good information. Unless some person can beat everyone on the planet and can guarantee to teach that as part of their 'martial-art', I'd suggest that the current worry is more about getting good/real information.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 08-12-2010, 09:11 AM   #130
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Mike,

I think you would at least need people that you trust in order to:

A) show you these skills

B) be honest enough to tell you wether or not you are progressing or doing the exercises correctly. Otherwise its easy to get self deluded.

C) When you initially start you need someone else pushing on you so that you can feel the difference between proper and improper movement. Perhaps once you have some understanding of this, you can do tons of solo training because you can recognize the feel on your own.

D) If you have a group of somekind, you are more likely to stick with the training and will likely make better progress since you can bounce ideas off one another. Sure if you are hardcore enough you don't need peer pressure.

At the end of the day maybe you don't need friendship (its not going to hurt), but it does help to surround yourself with commited people who are interested in these skills if for any other reason than having a variety of body types and skill levels to play with.
Hello Hunter
If I may, while all that is true, you still only outlined learning some basic connections through push testing....er...okay.
Solo training is key...absolutely essential,, paired testing as well. However, legendary, IP/aiki is never, was never, a completed skill learned by remaining in these sorts of environments. It's kind of like being retarded in it's true definition of being developmentally challenged, people who remain there will never fully develop, and can and will be outmatched by those who've taken it literally, to the next level.
Contrary, to some of the myth making seen here, there are more and more stories coming back with real experts in the ICMA who have had trouble in dealing with western wrestlers and MMA'ers at seminars. Now imagine the same westerners with IP/aiki and with those same years of experience in fighting skill.
More and more are thinking this way. I think it's a good thing.
As I said though, for those really searching for total development, there are those who attempt to cheapen those efforts. Something any serious martial artists should look out for.. .
Cheers
Dan
 
Old 08-12-2010, 09:23 AM   #131
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I know two different people who claim to have internal strength skills. One of them has only very rudimentary actual skills, but covers the rest of it because he can (well, could) fight pretty well and beat up on a lot of people who weren't really good fighters; this guy has a pretty loud mouth in regard to telling people how good he is (or, was). The other guy has, IMO, pretty good I.S. skills, in the real and technical sense and he's a pretty good fighter. Both guys have been involved in car wrecks in recent years, and the loudmouth can't really fight anymore; the other guy wasn't injured quite as badly, but he's still limited in his mobility.

Let's say some newby wanted to learn internal-strength skills.... which of those two guys should he go learn from. The guy who had a few rudimentary skills and a lot of strength.. or the guy who actually had and understood internal strength? The guy with the actual technical knowledge would be my suggestion. If someone learns actual internal strength, then they can go apply it to "fightin'", qigongs, or tiddlywinks correctly. I.e., it doesn't matter, IMO, how you use it (that's up to you), as long as you're doing it correctly. The story about one guy pushing another guy doesn't tell me much except that "winning" seems to be raising its head as an issue, while I thought that we were still just talking about how to get good information. Unless some person can beat everyone on the planet and can guarantee to teach that as part of their 'martial-art', I'd suggest that the current worry is more about getting good/real information.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
This is not an honest approach to me, or a serious attempt at a discussion. It never is with you. You obviously are not this one dimmensional in your own life with this nonsense, so I am not going to reduce myself to this artificial exchange of all about winning and losing,

I am discussing a complete picture in the martial arts that is far beyond you and I or any forum, one which is written about in both Chinese and Japanese circles. You can continue to attempt to separate and re-define, then reduce a field you admit not having a part of or interest in. It is just getting more and more transparent when you do. Hey, I don't begrudge your efforts and stated goals. Good for you. I hear you have gotten some decent resutls. the rest is a discussion past your stated goals. They are no mutually exclusive.
It's just like having discussions with aiki-bunnies who make no beans about not caring about applications, they are just having fun. Good on them too. but there are those in aikido who most definately ARE looking for martial skills in their practice.

Your tactics do you an ill service. When I look back at these discussions with you and I; it is abundantly clear to all who goes after who.
We're all just amateurs with different goals. The legends pursued both, it is what the modern experts in the making shoot for too, almost all of them put out "application" videos of form and kata.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-12-2010 at 09:36 AM.
 
Old 08-12-2010, 09:28 AM   #132
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Still more posts that are completely off-topic. Let's just accept the obvious... most people see right away that the importance of "friendship" (or trying to put others down, aggrandize one's own glory, etc.) simply fails as an argument, so that topic gets dropped like a hot potato when questioned. I.e., while it sounds cool to go off on some of these digressions, they don't do a thing to further the main issue of the thread.

Thinking about it, though, reminds me of a discussion I had yesterday which reminded me of a comment one of my earlier teachers made back in the 1980's. I talked about going to a tournament that Summer down in Houston and he asked me why I wasted my time doing those things instead of just practicing. "Very few of those people are serious martial artists, so you are wasting your time", he said. I.e., his opinion was along the lines that if you are trying to develop serious skills, the practice is more important than the social aspects. I tend to agree.

Lorel, why not contribute something substantive about the path to internal power that you're taking and how well it works, why it works, etc.?

Mike Sigman
This is not completely off topic. If you want people to discuss and talk about "the paths that lead to internal power" then you have to stop saying things that are condemnatory and possibly consider that these people describe these skills in a different phenomenological language (this is considering whether the language--hara, ground path, etc--you use points to the truth of this relaxed power/bodyskill that we are after).

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
 
Old 08-12-2010, 09:30 AM   #133
HL1978
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hello Hunter
If I may, while all that is true, you still only outlined learning some basic connections through push testing....er...okay.
Solo training is key...absolutely essential,, paired testing as well. However, legendary, IP/aiki is never, was never, a completed skill learned by remaining in these sorts of environments. It's kind of like being retarded in it's true definition of being developmentally challenged, people who remain there will never fully develop, and can and will be outmatched by those who've taken it literally, to the next level.
Contrary, to some of the myth making seen here, there are more and more stories coming back with real experts in the ICMA who have had trouble in dealing with western wrestlers and MMA'ers at seminars. Now imagine the same westerners with IP/aiki and with those same years of experience in fighting skill.
More and more are thinking this way. I think it's a good thing.
As I said though, for those really searching for total development, there are those who attempt to cheapen those efforts. Something any serious martial artists should look out for.. .
Cheers
Dan
Dan,

I'm in agreement here. You need to go out and play with people who have no expereience with these skills. Not to make yourself feel awesome (its easy to get a big head), but to make sure that you can really make them work and not delude yourself.

to me there isn't much point of learning a skill that only works under certain conditions with certain people. If that was the case, I would be better off taking card tricks as a hobby.
 
Old 08-12-2010, 09:53 AM   #134
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Dan,

I'm in agreement here. You need to go out and play with people who have no expereience with these skills. Not to make yourself feel awesome (its easy to get a big head), but to make sure that you can really make them work and not delude yourself.

to me there isn't much point of learning a skill that only works under certain conditions with certain people. If that was the case, I would be better off taking card tricks as a hobby.
That's exaclty what I did. I get a kick out of the "loud mouth" and "self agrandizing" and every other insult and negative comment some people can think of to attach to these discussions. Most of which is meant to obviate the fact that you can successfully pursue both IP/aiki and martial use. I means its really getting to sound rather strange.

I learned to actually use these things from the flat of my back, from failing continouosly, over and over, till it started working for me. People on this board have met my guys and hear the stories, many of which are hilarious, and anything but favorable to me! There is no ego in that type of martial give and take.,Testing is and always was part of the martial game. Talking about it gives credence to those who honestly were doubting whether IP/aiki had real value in a martial conext, and even now others continue to doubt it's real use. Thus it IS PART OF THE DISCUSSION among martial artists. The fact that I do well now, is meaningless other than it is yet one more example for people to see and be able to discuss and in my case that hundreds can now feel and discuss in person, thus IP/aiki's potential in use is again proven out.

I have always seen it as a series of experiments of methods and have remained detached from the the end rsults. I have done well with some ICMA master class guys too, , but hey... when one of them throws me on my ass I will be the first to let you know... bully for whoever that may turn out to be, Hell I look forward to it, makes no beans to me,or any other serious grappler who gets thrown, and then throws, the same guy back...over and over.
Seems to me its only these "martial artists" types who attach so much ego to winning and losing....big deal! I suspect it's because they have never done much of either..
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-12-2010 at 10:01 AM.
 
Old 08-12-2010, 09:53 AM   #135
Mike Sigman
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
This is not an honest approach to me, or a serious attempt at a discussion. It never is with you. You obviously are not this one dimmensional in your own life with this nonsense, so I am not going to reduce myself to this artificial exchange of all about winning and losing,
More off-topic personality-focused diversions.
Quote:

I am discussing a complete picture. one which is written about in both Chinese and Japanese circles.
That's a vague sentence. If you're trying to justify why you keep going off into "I can fight, too" stuff, as a part of internal strength, let me remind you that internal-strength is also a part of many non-martial qigongs, so the idea that you're supported by Japan and China simply fails. I say first learn internal strength and then develop what you want with it; you seem to always harp that good fighting is part of internal strength. Not true. For instance, I don't flinch at all and start denigrating Koichi Tohei when he indicates fighting and martial-arts doesn't have a lot to do with his school because I recognize that that's a valid perspective among some Asians. Constantly denigrating others only says something about the person doing the talking.
Quote:
Of course you can continue to separate and attempt to re-define, then reduce a field you have no part in.
Dan, I get a little tired of you posting your comments about what you think I do and can do. Why not just stop? Stick to technical details. Last I heard, not everyone is as enamored of you as might be thought by reading your own posts, but I simply ignore people when they go off on tangents about you, too. Let's just give the personal stuff a rest, shall we?
Quote:
[i]"The first step they use is to try to intellectually reduce the efforts of others, to try and gain what they have without expending the same effort....." .
I agree with that. As long as the person doing the "borrowing" isn't claiming all he knows is from his own brilliance or that he's been doing all of it "for many years". If you remember, I pointed out that I've seen this same game played for decades; it's fairly common.
Quote:
We're all just amatuers with different goals. The legends pursued both, it is what the modern experts in the making shoot for too, Mike.
Dan
So far I haven't met any self-made modern experts who can move with the dantien and who aren't shoulder-reliant. That's the core of what I've been trying to say: before people start distracting conversations about winning fights, I'd be satisfied with just watching them move without being shoulder/arm dependent. If they're great fighters with some rudimentary jin skills but a lot of shoulder and non-hara movement, my question is about why that sort of movement is being called internal strength. Same point I made with the car-wrecks story.

Think about it......why, if someone's internal-strength is so good, do they still use their shoulders and not their hara's? Ever see a Chinese or Japanese martial art that didn't stress the fact that the hara should be used?

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 08-12-2010, 09:59 AM   #136
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
You need to go out and play with people who have no expereience with these skills. Not to make yourself feel awesome (its easy to get a big head), but to make sure that you can really make them work and not delude yourself.

to me there isn't much point of learning a skill that only works under certain conditions with certain people. If that was the case, I would be better off taking card tricks as a hobby.
Hmm...now there is a thought, and a very good one at that.
 
Old 08-12-2010, 10:08 AM   #137
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Hmm...now there is a thought, and a very good one at that.
One which we have done...continouosly, over and over in many venues now numbering in the hunrdeds. Win, lose or draw, just putting it out there and doing what we can do for those who are looking. So far, I have rarely seen the public detractors who openly doubted that IP/aiki was a different way to move and a real usable skill, who followed their own advice.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-12-2010 at 10:12 AM.
 
Old 08-12-2010, 10:22 AM   #138
Lee Salzman
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I agree with that. As long as the person doing the "borrowing" isn't claiming all he knows is from his own brilliance or that he's been doing all of it "for many years". If you remember, I pointed out that I've seen this same game played for decades; it's fairly common. So far I haven't met any self-made modern experts who can move with the dantien and who aren't shoulder-reliant. That's the core of what I've been trying to say: before people start distracting conversations about winning fights, I'd be satisfied with just watching them move without being shoulder/arm dependent. If they're great fighters with some rudimentary jin skills but a lot of shoulder and non-hara movement, my question is about why that sort of movement is being called internal strength. Same point I made with the car-wrecks story.

Think about it......why, if someone's internal-strength is so good, do they still use their shoulders and not their hara's? Ever see a Chinese or Japanese martial art that didn't stress the fact that the hara should be used?

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Out of genuine curiosity, if we are to think about it, I would like to ask: if all these people are using their shoulders in connection with their other skills, and this is to be taken as detrimental, then is that because they have determined an actual use or benefit to that in spite of this claim, or does this actually detract from their skills? I'd just like to understand why/how this is limiting their displayed ability, before we take it as a given.
 
Old 08-12-2010, 10:49 AM   #139
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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More off-topic personality-focused diversions. If you're trying to justify why you keep going off into "I can fight, too" stuff, as a part of internal strength, let me remind you that internal-strength is also a part of many non-martial qigongs, so the idea that you're supported by Japan and China simply fails.
Wrong. I never said they weren't. Try to stay focused, Mike...ready...?
This is a martial art forum, I was talking to and about people who were interested in IP/aiki and its value WITHIN martial arts.
Read it a couple of times, Mike. They are not mutually exclusive. It's actually a big discussion.

Quote:
Constantly denigrating others only says something about the person doing the talking. Dan, I get a little tired of you posting your comments about what you think I do and can do. Why not just stop? Stick to technical details. Last I heard, not everyone is as enamored of you as might be thought by reading your own posts, but I simply ignore people when they go off on tangents about you, too. Let's just give the personal stuff a rest, shall we?
YOu always do that after you cut up other people and get hammered back. How about lets knock off your passive/ agressive nonsense and talk straight.
I don't really care who is enamored of me, I hear quite a bit about you too...probably from the same people!! I just don't state what I hear. Here's a tip for a more healthy life, Mike. "Those who gossip to you- will gossip about you."
Budo-ka can be like a sewing circle. I don't invest myself in gossip..Why do you keep bringing up gossip only to tell me you don't believe it? Because it allows you to make another passive/agressive swipe. I have asked you that before and told you I ignore it and then don't mention what I hear and only then used an example of what I heard.Then pointed out to you how it is counter productive to any real discussion. See how that works? We really have to get beyond it..
If you don't like the comments I make....to you about your own statements....to me ..examine the ones you make to me.

Quote:
I agree with that. As long as the person doing the "borrowing" isn't claiming all he knows is from his own brilliance or that he's been doing all of it "for many years". If you remember, I pointed out that I've seen this same game played for decades; it's fairly common. So far I haven't met any self-made modern experts who can move with the dantien and who aren't shoulder-reliant.
Does this sound familiar to you?
More off-topic personality-focused diversions..... If not see above!

Quote:
That's the core of what I've been trying to say:
Not really...most understand the core of what you are really trying to say.

Quote:
before people start distracting conversations about winning fights, I'd be satisfied with just watching them move without being shoulder/arm dependent. If they're great fighters with some rudimentary jin skills but a lot of shoulder and non-hara movement, my question is about why that sort of movement is being called internal strength. Same point I made with the car-wrecks story.
Think about it......why, if someone's internal-strength is so good, do they still use their shoulders and not their hara's? Ever see a Chinese or Japanese martial art that didn't stress the fact that the hara should be used?
Hmmm...presumptions and innuendo abound!
That you see discussions of martial use of IP/aiki as a "distraction" is my point about your own clearly stated goals. Your goals V others...as here, once again, you make them sound mutually exclusive.
They might well be for you, but it hardly seems accurate to comment on, or denigrate the path others take.

Case in point
I have not said what you can and cannot do, I could care less.
You state the limits of your own goals here over and over.
Look, this isn't about you or I. It's about the larger topic of IP/ aiki and various paths. Just like with the aiki-bunnies and in the Ki wars; where people stated their own disinterest in martial applications. I bear them no ill will,and I think it is unfair to insult them. That is an honest and clean pursuit, no business of mine, I say go for it and good luck in your pursuits.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-12-2010 at 11:01 AM.
 
Old 08-12-2010, 10:56 AM   #140
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Out of genuine curiosity, if we are to think about it, I would like to ask: if all these people are using their shoulders in connection with their other skills, and this is to be taken as detrimental, then is that because they have determined an actual use or benefit to that in spite of this claim, or does this actually detract from their skills? I'd just like to understand why/how this is limiting their displayed ability, before we take it as a given.
I have never seen the benefit. Most of those who talk about it end up one-side weighted and on the floor, or easily blocked and blown through...dang...there's that martial talk again!

The use of the shoulder is going to isolate the arm from a clean path of power through the body.
There are other more sophisticated things you can do in generating power in the hand from the hara/ground...say in one direction, while the elbow can generate a different force in an entirely different direction... and so on. There are various ways the hand itself can express power from different parts of the body. Some of that joins IP to IS and aiki.
None of that is going to work when the arm/shoulder is in isolation.
Cheers
Dan
 
Old 08-12-2010, 11:09 AM   #141
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Mike
Most people wish you and I would stop doing this. Since we cannot communicate well, for whatever reason, we should probably just avoid direct and oblique commentary all together, out of respect for each other and those here.

Dan.
 
Old 08-12-2010, 11:30 AM   #142
Lee Salzman
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I have never seen the benefit. Most of those who talk about it end up one-side weighted and on the floor, or easily blocked and blown through...dang...there's that martial talk again!

The use of the shoulder is going to isolate the arm from a clean path of power through the body.
There are other more sophisticated things you can do in generating power in the hand from the hara/ground...say in one direction, while the elbow can generate a different force in an entirely different direction... and so on. There are various ways the hand itself can express power from different parts of the body. Some of that joins IP to IS and aiki.
None of that is going to work when the arm/shoulder is in isolation.
Cheers
Dan
Okay, I can accept that to some degree. But what would qualify as isolation? Like, someone throwing a punch with mostly muscles around the shoulder joint being used, and the rest of their body just mostly bracing? Or does even extending the whole body, if one is careful to simultaneously activate every muscle in the chain, including the shoulder, count as isolation here, so long as the shoulder muscles are working at all, even if in concert with the entire body?
 
Old 08-12-2010, 12:35 PM   #143
phitruong
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

you guys make this thing, IP/IS, way too complicated. first, you need to get the right information which involved going out and learned from various sources. a few already known in various circles. certain approach(es) might work better for certain people, depends on their inclination. some approach required a change in diet which included high amount of bean and cabbage and eggs. then you are going to spend lots of time practice by yourself and own up to your development. if your diet is like mine, it's better that you be by yourself, because other folks might not appreciate your power generation phase. then you going to need some like mind folks to do some "friendly testing" to make sure you are still on the right path/road/trail/course/trajectory, because the roads to hell and heaven sometime look almost the same (especially when bean and cabbage involved). then you are going to need to test it out with some unknown bruisers just gauge your progress/effectiveness (this is still martial arts after all) so you don't have some sort of illusion of grandeur (like declaring yourself as grand master cirque de l'air). and the cycle of rinse and agitation.

in summary (don't i sound like a grand master?), you need three things,
1. right info
2. right practice
3. right testing
4. right diet
 
Old 08-12-2010, 12:49 PM   #144
Janet Rosen
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Mike
Most people wish you and I would stop doing this. Since we cannot communicate well, for whatever reason, we should probably just avoid direct and oblique commentary all together, out of respect for each other and those here.
Dan.
Yep

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
 
Old 08-12-2010, 01:33 PM   #145
Mike Sigman
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

About using the hara/dantien instead of local arm/shoulder:
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I have never seen the benefit. Most of those who talk about it end up one-side weighted and on the floor, or easily blocked and blown through...dang...there's that martial talk again!

The use of the shoulder is going to isolate the arm from a clean path of power through the body.
There are other more sophisticated things you can do in generating power in the hand from the hara/ground...say in one direction, while the elbow can generate a different force in an entirely different direction... and so on. There are various ways the hand itself can express power from different parts of the body. Some of that joins IP to IS and aiki.
None of that is going to work when the arm/shoulder is in isolation.
Cheers
Dan
A couple of comments. What about a previous statement you made that there are other ways to generate power than using the dantien/hara?

A second comment is to reiterate what I've already said (and this is very easy to show/see) along the lines that I see/hear a lot of talk about people doing "internal strength" but when you take a look at it, it almost always devolves to a heavy dependency on shoulder/arm use.

Lee, the trick to a lot of these things is that until someone has become acquainted with a lot of these things (e.g., your question about hara, muscle-chains, etc.), they can't know that they're there or they can't conceive of them. Worse yet, a lot of people get a start along the way, but they feel too quickly that they're experts, so their learning becomes truncated. I've had a number of people, over the years, who had very few skills but a lot of pride stop me in the middle of some very diplomatic "maybe if you...." to say "Yeah, yeah, I know.... after all, I *teach* this stuff". So I don't say anything since they already know everything.

All of these factors add to the difficulties of the original question about paths that lead to internal strength.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 08-12-2010, 01:58 PM   #146
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Yep
Hi Janet
All I can do is try. The misquotes, oblique attacks and things made up out of thin air can be a nuisance.
Cheers
Dan
 
Old 08-12-2010, 02:18 PM   #147
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

In any case Tim, go out there and touch hands with some experts or some people mentioned here on aikiweb. I had to go to Japan to do that.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
 
Old 08-12-2010, 03:09 PM   #148
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Hi lorel
In post #126 I meant to begin my reply with " I agree" since the rest of the post was mostly covering mutual points.
cheers
Dan
 
Old 08-12-2010, 03:14 PM   #149
phitruong
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
In any case Tim, go out there and touch hands with some experts or some people mentioned here on aikiweb. I had to go to Japan to do that.
you are single, right? such a long commute for sushi. personally, i'd just tag along with howie popkin, because sooner or later, you will be able to get your hand on some fresh sashimi (if you can get pass his aiki). then again, he just married recently, so he's probably shore lined.
 
Old 08-12-2010, 05:27 PM   #150
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Hey Phi,
re: Diet.
interesting.
Can you say a bit more about why you said that? Were you serious?

I just recently found the attached article; about the adverse effects on the body/fascia/triggerpoints in having an acidic (low grade acidosis) diet. (ph>7)... and why having a 'basic' (in terms of pH) diet is good. -->Breathing, Fascia and pH levels stressbreathfasciapH.pdf

was thinking...iirc; this ties into some of the stuff on macrobiotic stuff and also the benefits of the fasting (or some part of the misogi no gyo diet-manipulating practices) that Shaun Ravens mentioned long ago. i may be drastically misquoting...but that's how i remember it.
 

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