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Old 08-03-2010, 01:21 PM   #26
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
To flip that back on ya, what the hell is the point of always falling down or always going with it?
I find it intriguing that my own early instincts about ukemi turns out to have been not only spot on, but a behind the scenes practice method of some of the experts. Made a lot of sense to me twenty years ago when no one else was talking about it...and even more now. It was a more complete picture of doing and having aiki in Aikido to me. Apparently the teachers I train with agree. Makes for some truly profound and powerful aikido
I think it's all about balance-yes pun intented.
Cheers
Dan
In my slight experience I've always found the lessons of kaeshiwaza and "standard" waza to form a more complete picture of what I should be doing at any given time in technique. At sensei Barrish's dojo, when two people who knew each other well trained together, there was often a sense of some free-play attached to the training. That is, when both parties feel comfortable with the basic movement (and each other's ability or desire for training), they often play with whatever opening's they might find...some times more than others. I always found this very helpful though. Shodokan seems to have a more structured form of this, but their graduated approach to resistance seems to fit this aim.
I'm curious if Dan or Ellis know of a good, readily accessible, visual example of the ukemi they'd recommend. I've looked for something that looks like what I recall experiencing, but haven't found anything. At Kannagara dojo we often have a strong arch to the back, but that's partly because nage is driving the wrist/arm through uke's body toward his or her feet, forcing the back-bridge. My sense of taking ukemi was to try and drop the elbow, which included trying to turn into nage with one possible aim of grabbing from behind. I'm not sure if this is quite what Ellis meant, but his description reminded me a bit of it. At Himeji Shodokan the projection was (seemed to be) more straight back and down, creating the "sitting down" backward breakfall. The Shodokan example I remember was more of a throw than a pin though.
...And I may be confusing the waza. I believe it's called tenkai kotegaeshi in that system, but hopefully someone with more experience can chime in and correct me.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 08-03-2010, 01:44 PM   #27
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

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Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
Next time you're in the Boston area, come visit the Goshinkan in Newton. You are welcome anytime.

Or drop by any Yoshinkan dojo in your area. The shihonage pin is one of our basic techniques (kihon waza) so you should find a uniform approach to its execution at any Yoshinkan dojo.
haha, Boston is my home town, I might just take you up on it someday.

MM
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Old 08-03-2010, 01:45 PM   #28
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

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Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
If you stay on the balls of your feet instead of being flatt footed and you really push your center up, you can come back up easier. Sensei likes to use me to demonstrate and I get put in that situation so he can demonstrate why you should stay on the balls of your feet (for the sole reason you mentioned- you can come back up or walk around backwards if nage decides to walk you around)
its all about the balls of the feet. lol
Staying light is usually one of the biggest priorities we are taught in my school. Connection and lightness, they allow for you to maintain your ballance, and recover if nage leaves an opening.

MM
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Old 08-03-2010, 03:56 PM   #29
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
*Important note: the first clip is't to be considered what Yoshinkan is practicing these days...its from a derivative and hasn't been taught at Yoshinkan Honbu since before I was born.
Adam,

From your experience and the teachings of your Yoshinkan line, what is the benefit to being taken down onto the shoulders without the butt first dropping as in a standard koho ukemi?

Why do you/we do it that way?

...rab
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Old 08-03-2010, 04:19 PM   #30
Adam Huss
 
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Quote:
Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
Adam,

From your experience and the teachings of your Yoshinkan line, what is the benefit to being taken down onto the shoulders without the butt first dropping as in a standard koho ukemi?

Why do you/we do it that way?

...rab
First, its my kihon. Our oyo waza version is generally considered the kuzushi, katahizatsuki variaiton. Second, its a softer and safer landing for uke as long as shite has control Third, there is more control by shite. Since this is kihon, there is a right and wrong way to do nage, osae, ukemi, etc. This version ensures shite has katameru before "throwing" uke. Obviously, if shite was going to actually throw uke, vice taking him to the ground, this might not be the best way to fall..I could do it, but I'm young, somewhat flexible, and have good control when doing ukemi.

Its basically the same thing Ando Sensei's uke was doing, except as soon as his shoulders hit he immediately pops his hips out, the presure release comes into play as you see his legs kick out...from what I can tell at least.

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 08-03-2010, 04:31 PM   #31
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

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Adam Huss wrote: View Post
Its basically the same thing Ando Sensei's uke was doing, except as soon as his shoulders hit he immediately pops his hips out, the presure release comes into play as you see his legs kick out...from what I can tell at least.
Thanks for the comment Adam.

I don't think Ando teaches this method as part of his kihon though I could be wrong. In the second video clip from the OP, Ando's uke clearly drops his hips and makes contact with his butt on the matt first. Basically a standard koho ukemi, with the addition of the legs kicking up at the end to relieve pressure from the pin.

Osu!
...rab
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Old 08-03-2010, 04:51 PM   #32
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Oh ok...thanks for the correction. Apologies for giving wrong info! I was commenting off memory which I shouldn't have done!

Osu!

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 08-03-2010, 11:46 PM   #33
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Matthew Gano wrote:

Quote:
I'm curious if Dan or Ellis know of a good, readily accessible, visual example of the ukemi they'd recommend.
I know a certain DVD.

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Old 08-04-2010, 12:01 AM   #34
Janet Rosen
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
I know a certain DVD.
and highly recommended.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
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Old 08-04-2010, 12:37 PM   #35
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post

I know a certain DVD.
Somehow I thought that might be the answer I'd get. I suppose it IS readily available, although I meant something I could glimps right away. I'll have to check with my chief financial officer (wife) to see if I can buy your DVD, it does sound like a great resource (and pretty affordable)! Do you know of a close approximation for what you're describing in shihonage found on youtube though?

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 08-04-2010, 02:30 PM   #36
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Quote:
Do you know of a close approximation for what you're describing in shihonage found on youtube though?
Nope

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Old 08-04-2010, 08:39 PM   #37
raul rodrigo
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

I was talking to an instructor at Yoshinkan Hombu the other day, and he said that with the way they do shihonage ukemi, it's not uncommon for the new senshusei to get knocked out when being thrown by the shihan.
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Old 08-04-2010, 09:42 PM   #38
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

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Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
I was talking to an instructor at Yoshinkan Hombu the other day, and he said that with the way they do shihonage ukemi, it's not uncommon for the new senshusei to get knocked out when being thrown by the shihan.
LMAO, that's awesome.

MM
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Old 08-05-2010, 01:41 AM   #39
Adam Huss
 
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Well historically shihonage has been the most destructive technique. Gotta to love the Shihonage Sabu Chan stories!

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 08-05-2010, 09:48 AM   #40
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
I was talking to an instructor at Yoshinkan Hombu the other day, and he said that with the way they do shihonage ukemi, it's not uncommon for the new senshusei to get knocked out when being thrown by the shihan.
Oh, Yeah!
That's really intelligent.
I would love to meet the Shihan and have him try that on me. What do you think that shihans chances would be at pulling off that shihonage throw on Couture? Well actually any decent grappler. Almost impossible I would bet. So, why do that to someone who either isn't allowed to fight back, or doesn't even know how?
Stanley has a great article about Aikido being the most dangerous martial art.(with statistics of injuries). Not because of its techniques, not because of its skill, but because the uke cooperates in his own demise.

Training accidents aside, where is the care and concern for the uke? We are not at war and everyone needs to have the long view in preserving our own safety for each of us. I think that means not accepting abuse, calling people on it and addressing it for the sake of us all. We have all seen enough beat up old budoka. There just is no need.
Why are there so many extremely capable, even dangerous, old grapplers who are just fine?
Why? Self preservation in fighting back. No ukemi!
We can learn to be capable while at least trying to be careful.
Dan
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Old 08-05-2010, 12:08 PM   #41
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Oh, Yeah!
That's really intelligent.
I would love to meet the Shihan and have him try that on me. What do you think that shihans chances would be at pulling off that shihonage throw on Couture? Well actually any decent grappler. Almost impossible I would bet.
ahhh crap..lol another wrestling pissing contest ..begins! lol

MM
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Old 08-05-2010, 12:16 PM   #42
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
Well historically shihonage has been the most destructive technique. Gotta to love the Shihonage Sabu Chan stories!
Actually, I read a study in the past(it might of been in one of the old-old-old paper versions of Aikido Journal, not remembering now.) but it actually said shihonage had the worse track record for injuries. Iriminage was also really bad. But techniques like koshi and jujinage were relatively low for injuries.(I'd like to point out that they included university clubs in the study. They attributed injuries at these clubs to poor instruction, and a lack of high ranking students to administer classes...so basically a bunch of 19 year old guys messing around and accidentally hurting each other.)

MM
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Old 08-05-2010, 12:25 PM   #43
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

FWIW, allow me to add a minor comment and element that maybe of interest. I learned to take Shihonage in away that was making me uncomfortable as a result, I was concerned about injury. I place that on the shoulders of myself, lack of experience with taking Ukemi from Shihonage, my instruction, and the lack of experience with the waza of my training partners.

I was on vacation and happened to run into a Hapkido school, O.K. we were driving by a strip mall and seen a Hapkido school located there. Never seeing Hapkido live, I was curious as there are some similarities to Aikido. The thing was, during the observation of the class I recognized a technique they where doing as Shihonage. The thing the struck me was how they took the fall. It was a break fall.

The students where pretty rough with each other, it wasn't controlled kata. It look like a fight. Well, they where really rough. I was surprised that I didn't hear the snap of breaking bones as they practice the wazas. And after class discussion with the students it was clear to me why the could go all out on each other and not get injured. In short it was explained it is the responsibility of both people practicing the technique to do what they need to do, to get the job done.

That is to say, the thrower seriously went full speed and intensity, and it was the job of the receiver of the throw to counter and resist the throw, and one was to break fall during the execution of the technique. However the thrower placed the arm in position, it was the receiver to avoid the break however they could. One person said depending on how the arm is placed vertically or otherwise, as the receiver of the technique, he best avoided the situation with a jumping back breakfall- traveling faster that the speed of the applied technique.

The caveat was if you don't time it right your screwed- if you brake fall early while the thrower is still standing and hasn't started to lower his center of gravity his decent by kneeling down taking the receiver to the ground in the pre-pin position, injury results, as one example. It was said there is allot of responsibility upon the receiver of the throw, because in a live situation and find your self on the receiving end of the waza, you have to know how to protect yourself from injury, and that is the purpose of taking falls.

Personally, I adopted some of that philosophy and practice.And once I did that I felt more comfortable. I was taught via the philosophy of Aikido that the Shi has the responsibility not to injury the uke. And I think is good,, but not to the extreme I was taking it at. So, now I take my share of the responsibility for my own welfare. When I am the uke I am always aware when taking Ukiem what I need to do to prevent me from being injured. In many cases of being the uke,I will make a small hop to get ahead of the waza, and do a back break fall at the right time to save my arm, usually done with new over anxious students, that don't have a lot of control. Students who are always driving on the freeway, type of thing.

Maybe my story might help others to avoid injury, be thinking aobut different ways etc, in taking Ukemi to avoid injury.
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Old 08-05-2010, 12:26 PM   #44
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

I've always felt one can't grow without at least some element of risk. While I disagree with a lot of the behavior I see from some high level instructors (applying pins like they're throwing a revere punch), I have no problem with genuine robust throwing as one's ukemi should always be able to handle it...as long as both parties are so inclined. At the senshusei, both parties are so inclined.

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Old 08-05-2010, 12:33 PM   #45
Adam Huss
 
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
Actually, I read a study in the past(it might of been in one of the old-old-old paper versions of Aikido Journal, not remembering now.) but it actually said shihonage had the worse track record for injuries. Iriminage was also really bad. But techniques like koshi and jujinage were relatively low for injuries.(I'd like to point out that they included university clubs in the study. They attributed injuries at these clubs to poor instruction, and a lack of high ranking students to administer classes...so basically a bunch of 19 year old guys messing around and accidentally hurting each other.)
O'Sensei killed one student and seriously injured another in the same seminar. All the deaths I know of are from the original honbu dojo. I think at least two or three were from shihonage. The most serious injury I've seen in my organization was caused by hakama entanglement (totally jacked up his leg, torn something or other)...although I am quite cognizant of the high injury level in aikido. Even though 99% of aikido is cooperative these injuries still occur, usually due to a lack of control on the part of nage b/c they halfway learned technique, to include ukemi. See how I brought that back to ukemi? Full circle, baby, oh yea!

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 08-05-2010, 12:39 PM   #46
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

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Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
Actually, I read a study in the past(it might of been in one of the old-old-old paper versions of Aikido Journal, not remembering now.)
I believe you are referring to this article entitled "Aikido and Injuries: A Special Report" on Aikido Journal by Fumiaki Shishida sensei, written in 1989:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=8

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Old 08-05-2010, 01:02 PM   #47
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

I also think that when we look at Aikido waza, what was the original purpose and design, why was it created and to answer what type of attack and attacker. The would also help I think in understanding how to avoid injury. It would help with why the uke is placed in the position they are placed and give insight to how to take the Ukemi. It is my understanding that Shihonage is one of those waza designed with the absent of Ukemi in mind. That might be the reason for the injury susceptibility and rate with this technique.
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Old 08-05-2010, 01:21 PM   #48
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

I guess what I am saying now that I think about it, is that Aikido wazas can be dangerous, and inflict great injury. And sometimes due to the concerned mood of Aikido that is forgotten or not realized. In terms of safety you really need to know what your dealing with and the potential it has to harm. It's is like what my college welding teacher said before he cut off his finger off demonstrating safety procedures of a welding cutting torch, "...respect the flame, understand how it works because if you don't, it will seriously injury you." Lesson learned is that of concentration.
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Old 08-05-2010, 01:46 PM   #49
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I also think that when we look at Aikido waza, what was the original purpose and design, why was it created and to answer what type of attack and attacker. The would also help I think in understanding how to avoid injury. It would help with why the uke is placed in the position they are placed and give insight to how to take the Ukemi. It is my understanding that Shihonage is one of those waza designed with the absent of Ukemi in mind. That might be the reason for the injury susceptibility and rate with this technique.
This is why we learn a specific technique, with a specific ukemi in our kihon waza (by we I mean my group). While the ukemi isn't scrutinized as much as technique, its still important..in particular safety points as well as how to actually go about taking ukemi for each technique.

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 08-05-2010, 02:12 PM   #50
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
O'Sensei killed one student and seriously injured another in the same seminar. All the deaths I know of are from the original honbu dojo. I think at least two or three were from shihonage. The most serious injury I've seen in my organization was caused by hakama entanglement (totally jacked up his leg, torn something or other)...although I am quite cognizant of the high injury level in aikido. Even though 99% of aikido is cooperative these injuries still occur, usually due to a lack of control on the part of nage b/c they halfway learned technique, to include ukemi. See how I brought that back to ukemi? Full circle, baby, oh yea!
Adam,

I've never heard or read about O'Sensei killing a student during a seminar. Are you sure you weren't thinking about his performance before the Emporer when his first uke got a broken arm with the first throw and Shioda had to serve as uke for the next 40 minutes? As I recall Shioda ran a high fever afterwards and was bed ridden for several days.

If you have more detail on O'Sensei killing a student, please share. I'd be very interested in learning more.

Thanks and osu!
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