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Old 08-03-2010, 06:30 PM   #1
Gorgeous George
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When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

...and why?

When you're being pinned, at what point should you turn your face, so that you can't see tori/nage, and expose the back of your head?

I'd say: when tori has you secured...? - So that you stay 'live' until that point, and can take advantage of any openings that are presented...?
Am I wrong?

What are the opinions on this?
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Old 08-03-2010, 06:45 PM   #2
Steven
 
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Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

I turn away simply so I don't get my face kicked. Though come to think of it, having my faced kick may be an improvement on my looks.

As for staying "live", well .... one could argue you shouldn't have to SEE it with your eyes to stay "live". What if you're blinded or it's pitch black?!? You should be able to "feel" the other person's energy and connection or lack thereof.
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Old 08-03-2010, 06:50 PM   #3
Gorgeous George
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Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

Quote:
Steven Miranda wrote: View Post
I turn away simply so I don't get my face kicked. Though come to think of it, having my faced kick may be an improvement on my looks.

As for staying "live", well .... one could argue you shouldn't have to SEE it with your eyes to stay "live". What if you're blinded or it's pitch black?!? You should be able to "feel" the other person's energy and connection or lack thereof.
Good point about getting kicked - but then, isn't getting hit in the face preferable (by some small degree) to getting hit in the back of the head?

And if you can't see, but detect an opening and move into it, then you could move straight into a strike; whereas if you can see where you're going...
I know what you're saying though.
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Old 08-03-2010, 06:55 PM   #4
Janet Rosen
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Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

When it feels like the right thing to do... sounds fatuous or inane, but I really can't explain it any better than that.

Janet Rosen
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Old 08-03-2010, 07:00 PM   #5
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Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

Agree with Janet. Also, depends on the technique as for turning away. What technique did you have in mind?

Whether tori has you secured or not, turning your head exposes the back of the head. So the technique will dictate uke's response as well as the tori's execution.
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Old 08-03-2010, 07:01 PM   #6
Gorgeous George
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Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
When it feels like the right thing to do... sounds fatuous or inane, but I really can't explain it any better than that.
As I say: for me, this point is when I have been secured.

I spent an, erm, interesting evening training in 'Ki Aikido' for the first time, and it has spurred this question (along with a few others - like 'What is aikido?').
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Old 08-03-2010, 07:03 PM   #7
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Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
Good point about getting kicked - but then, isn't getting hit in the face preferable (by some small degree) to getting hit in the back of the head?
.
Front - fleshy painful parts, vulnerable eyes, delicate bones.
Back - mostly thick bone.

Not even a close call in my opinion.

Mark
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Old 08-03-2010, 07:03 PM   #8
Gorgeous George
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Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

Quote:
Steven Miranda wrote: View Post
Agree with Janet. Also, depends on the technique as for turning away. What technique did you have in mind?

Whether tori has you secured or not, turning your head exposes the back of the head. So the technique will dictate uke's response as well as the tori's execution.
I guess the ikkyo pin - but that can go into a load of others, so any of them really.
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Old 08-03-2010, 07:29 PM   #9
Daniel Lloyd
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Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

I was told the reason why we turn our heads away is because with Nikyo pins and Sankyo pins - it has something to do with the artery or something in your neck that when you turn your head to face the person pinning you will go unconscious. I remember Michael Williams Sensei told us something like that a month or so ago.

In short - don't face nage/tori when they are pinning because you'll put yourself to sleep very quickly.
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Old 08-03-2010, 07:36 PM   #10
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Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

I've never thought about this. There just seems to be a very instinctive point at which it is needed for each individual pin, and for each individual nage you work with.

So, I guess the best time and place to tun your head would be somewhere between the nage and mat.

MM
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Old 08-03-2010, 07:52 PM   #11
Gorgeous George
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Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

Quote:
Mark Gibbons wrote: View Post
Front - fleshy painful parts, vulnerable eyes, delicate bones.
Back - mostly thick bone.

Not even a close call in my opinion.

Mark
Haha: try telling that to boxers/MMA-ers.
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Old 08-03-2010, 07:55 PM   #12
Gorgeous George
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Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

Quote:
Daniel Lloyd wrote: View Post
I was told the reason why we turn our heads away is because with Nikyo pins and Sankyo pins - it has something to do with the artery or something in your neck that when you turn your head to face the person pinning you will go unconscious. I remember Michael Williams Sensei told us something like that a month or so ago.

In short - don't face nage/tori when they are pinning because you'll put yourself to sleep very quickly.
I wasn't talking about facing tori when the pin is applied: I was talking about facing tori until it is clear the pin will be applied, and you can do nothing about it/have no chance at an opening/escape, I guess.
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Old 08-03-2010, 08:02 PM   #13
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Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

Quote:
Mark Gibbons wrote: View Post
Front - fleshy painful parts, vulnerable eyes, delicate bones.
Back - mostly thick bone.

Not even a close call in my opinion.

Mark
It's the base of the skull that is the vulnerable part.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 08-03-2010, 08:08 PM   #14
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Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
It's the base of the skull that is the vulnerable part.
Compared to the throat in front? Both are pretty vulnerable, throat is softer.
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Old 08-03-2010, 08:34 PM   #15
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Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

Quote:
Mark Gibbons wrote: View Post
Compared to the throat in front? Both are pretty vulnerable, throat is softer.
Compared to the quote (which you now have taken out of context) the 'mostly bone' characterization of the back of the skull is contrasted to the base of the skull.

Either way it really does not matter. At the late stage of the pin it is kind of too late to worry where to turn your head as you are done either way.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:08 PM   #16
Michael Hackett
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Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

We teach to turn the head away on the ikkyo, nikkyo and sankyo pins, primarily because of the nikkyo and sankyo pins. On those two pins, Nage usually places his knees against the ribcage and very close to the head. Turning the face away saves teeth and noses in training. We turn the head for ikkyo just for consistency.

Michael
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:15 PM   #17
Janet Rosen
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Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
I wasn't talking about facing tori when the pin is applied: I was talking about facing tori until it is clear the pin will be applied, and you can do nothing about it/have no chance at an opening/escape, I guess.
Graham, I took your question to mean at what point one literally turns one's head away, which I do, say on ikkyo, pretty much when I'm about to hit the mat UNLESS there is enough slack in my (un)controlled arm that it is really easy for me to stay turned towards nage - in which case I don't actively resist at that point, but let my continued slight rotation to nage send a somatic message that something is amiss and he'd better self-correct his extension or he's blown it.

If you mean at what point do I let my center turn away from nage/tori, well, unless I'm working with a real newbie and guiding them through it via my ukemi, I don't let it turn - I may let it BE turned as part of cooperative practice depending on partner's level of training, or I may simply not turn until turned.

Janet Rosen
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:17 PM   #18
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Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
We teach to turn the head away on the ikkyo, nikkyo and sankyo pins, primarily because of the nikkyo and sankyo pins. On those two pins, Nage usually places his knees against the ribcage and very close to the head. Turning the face away saves teeth and noses in training. We turn the head for ikkyo just for consistency.
Agreed. Also, as in kotegaishe, in case disarming from a tanto or other weapon is sloppy and it accidentally falls, better it falls an arm's length to the side of one's head rather than on one's face.

Janet Rosen
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Old 08-03-2010, 10:03 PM   #19
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Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

I turn my head toward a pin when its the first time I've seen it or not sure what it is just to get a look at whats going on. This saves time from sensei having to demonstrate it again on someone else b/c I was too busy being uke to pay attention. Depending on the pin, its varies in difficulty to see what's going on, but generally I can get the gist of it...just a bit of stretch in the neck. If nage is standing and I'm on the ground its pretty hard to see whats going on up there. Anyway, I don't think I've heard many reasonings beyond the simple "its more comfortable for uke to look away from pin" so its interesting to hear others ideas here.

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 08-03-2010, 10:30 PM   #20
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Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

Janet, good point on kotogaeshi - we protect the face with the free hand and arm from the landing and through the roll-over. Regardless of standing or kneeling pin on kotogaeshi, we turn our heads away from Nage, just to protect the face as mentioned before.

Michael
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Old 08-03-2010, 10:32 PM   #21
Jeff Scheurer
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Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

I was taught how it is possible in ikkyo, nikkyo, and sankyo pins to use uke's shoulder to constrict their carotid artery and cause a lack of blood flow to the brain. However, if uke turns their head in the other direction, the pressure will contribute to the immobilazation without affecting blood flow.
So I would say that once nage starts to put downward pressure it's best to look away so the artery isn't negatively affected. As far as weak spots, I could definitely find them on the front or the back of the head, but in my opinion I'd give the face as a target before I'd give the back of the head.
Break my nose and I'll be even uglier and a bit miffed. Hit me effectively on the occipital process and I might be eating apple sauce through a straw.
FWIW,
Jeff
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Old 08-03-2010, 11:20 PM   #22
aikishihan
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Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

Reality check.

When someone has you in a correct pinning move, in this case Ikkyo ude osae, you are at that person's mercy. You have no real options at that point, other than to concede, tap out and move on to the next training objective.

The point that I believe is being ignored here is the role and importance of mutual courtesy, compassion and respect for the training objective itself. The training protocol, in Aikido especially, requires prudent and proven reigi or etiquette, providing realistic training for both nage and uke, in their respective roles that constantly reverse themselves for mutual benefit and balance.

In Aikido especially, the nage is given huge leeway in finishing the technique, which would be totally unrealistic and unacceptable for the uke to yield to in an actual confrontation, and life or death situation. Thus the agreement that uke allows the nage to perform the waza thoroughly without real resistance, and that the nage accepts the responsibility of keeping the uke safe from any real threat of harm, is the basis for Aikido's kata form of training.

The act of turning the face away at that point in the waza is simply uke's tacit acceptance of nage's superior position, which must then be acknowledged by nage's compassionate response and zanshin. There is no need to define winners or losers in this scenario. Properly executed, this form of training results in both being winners.

In oneness,
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Old 08-04-2010, 02:30 AM   #23
Amir Krause
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Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

Never

And I have never fainted from any effect on the blood flow

To the best of my understanding, for us, not turning the head is in some way, representative part of zanshin - being always aware of the surrounding and looking for openings. This is more mind then practice in most cases.

Amir
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Old 08-04-2010, 02:57 AM   #24
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

If you turn your head away you can do a rolling escape from those "pins".

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Old 08-04-2010, 08:25 AM   #25
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Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
If you turn your head away you can do a rolling escape from those "pins".
I'd watch out with that. You will get away with it with a loose or poorly executed pin. However, a well executed pin you are liable to injury your shoulder trying to roll out of it.

I'd just like to say that rolling out of pins is my pet peeve. Mostly because that when I feel a person is gonna go for it, I just let go of them and allow them to roll. I'm not willing to risk injuring some one just to prove that my pin is awesome. lol

MM
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