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Old 07-14-2010, 05:22 PM   #51
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

Quote:
Ruth Rae wrote: View Post

The next thing to figure out is how to apply nikyo through a centre that has disappeared...

Ruth
Give them your center than just take it back, or make a center for them and then just go through it


Greg

Last edited by gregstec : 07-14-2010 at 05:32 PM.
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Old 07-14-2010, 09:59 PM   #52
Buck
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
To answer the question now directly with my opinion. The question was, there is pain while taking ukemi and is unbearable. Based on all the background information I provided I would say, assuming the pain is not from hitting the ground. That is falling is painless it is hitting the ground that hurts. Rather the mechanics of the technique make it painful. Yonkyo's original design was to damage the enemy's body to prevent counters and to defeat the enemy. Allot of that pain may have to do with the way you fall, how your body is aligned during the fall.

The other thing is there is so many variations on Yonkyo. I seen it done with only one hand and called Yonkyo as an example. Because we can't see Daniel as uke like on a vid, we don't really know enough accurately help. He could be taking ukemi late, or off-line resulting in excessive pain for him. This is along Naill's point that we are synced in. That moving away from the technique in such a way will cause pain. For me it increases the pain, which was calculated in the original design of Yonkyo to happen. The jujitsu originator(s) I think understood, from experience, humans naturally, unless otherwise trained, move away from the source of pain.

Thereby, they designed the waza based on that information. You try to escape or resist and your more screwed than if you don't. That is you fall away from the waza in such a way it increase the pain. Proper Yonkyo is painful in any direction if you try to resist or escape. I am not saying Yonkyo can't fail. Am speaking design theory and how that relates to pain.

I would guess Daniel's unbearable pain is resulting from how he taking ukemi that works to the benefit of the purpose of the waza as a jujitsu result. That is the increased pain may be do to the manner in which he is taking ukemi.

I would also think the Shi is either doing the waza very well or very poorly. Again we don't know that information. Therefore, I would say in the context of all I have said, that as time goes on, and so does the pain, Daniel will take ukemi in such a way that will elevate some of the pain to a point where it is bearable under both said conditions. It just shows how important ukemi is to Aikido.
The above quote is offered as a connivence to the reader.

Ok, let's work outside the box. Previously we worked inside the box. Here goes, to ease, even eliminate pain and even prevent tissue damage, and I dare say, a way to insure the technique to fail, in regard to the ukemi of Yonkyo, is to be flexible. To that extent would be defined by at least several months of Yoga. That is the more flexible you are the less pain you will experience in Aikido. In general terms, Aikido doesn't focus on flexibility like that of gymnastics for example. Aikido at the kihon level depends on inflexible uke’s. The more inflexible the joints and limbs of the uke, the more painful things are, such as taking ukemi from Yonkyo. The more flexible the less there is pain. As one of my sensei’s once said when I was concerned about the pain connected with a technique, “It is a loving stretch.” A statement with many layers. Daniel, if he is still following this thread, may consider that flexible limbs and joints will ease the pain experience as he stated his concerns.
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Old 07-15-2010, 01:36 PM   #53
DH
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

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Niall Matthews wrote: View Post

We don't do standing techniques in aikido, Dan. We do moving techniques.

On the pain point real aikido doesn't hurt. It's not supposed to. It only hurts if you are doing it wrong. The joint techniques in aikido are control techniques which are only painful if the uke doesn't want to follow and tries to escape.
Hello Niall
The "standing joint lock" comment referred to doing locks..standing up....not be confused with "standing still."
That said, cancelling yonkyo is done without much percetable movement at all, on contact, so further movement is not "required" it is an option.
Having to move..should tell you something.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 07-21-2010, 11:30 AM   #54
Mikemac
 
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

Just got my first taste of Yonkyo yesterday in class. My forearms are still sore today.

______________________________________________

"Hey! You got your kotegaeshi in my peanut butter!"
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Old 07-21-2010, 01:41 PM   #55
DH
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

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Mikemac writes: Just got my first taste of Yonkyo yesterday in class. My forearms are still sore today.
Interesting. I gave a guy his first taste the other night, then showed him how to start to neutralize it on the spot and then with aiki, simultaneously capture those doing it to him.
Sorry for your pain, it is entirely unnecessary and even counter productive in my view. I've personally found that teaching people to do aiki to capture someone on contact who is applying a lock on them was a desirable attribute that was received very well. Those I have shown it to said they would never go back. Now they can just walk through an ukemi and do the dance for nage...but now with no pain and in total control of the situation. Their movement becomes voluntary.
As was noted to me by a student of O'sensei, and was also included in an interview with another of his early Deshi and in some training notes from a student of Sagawa in the 60's; locks were meant to condition the body and to be absorbed. Aiki is meant to work both ways, and it can be taught from day one. It's probably a good idea to inquire about that.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 07-22-2010, 01:18 AM   #56
jss
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
As I said you can pretty much teach them to stop a yonkyo ...on the spot. No one was able to put a yonkyo on anyone after about 5 minutes of proper instruction.This included a very large san dan doing Yonkyo on a small newbie and having it canceled out while the newbie stood there smiling canceling out both the pain the movement motivation of the lock.
From which setup do you teach this?
Uke attacks (shomen uchi or aihanmi katate dori or ...), tori performs yonkyo and at the moment tori applies the lock, uke cancels it out? If so, I can't believe the sandan was unable to perform it on the newbie.
Fortunately, in an other post you mention the lock is cancelled out at the moment of contact. But if you have uke cancel it out at the moment tori makes contact with uke's attack, yonkyo is almost indistinguishable from ikkyo, nikkyo or sankyo. So why mention yonkyo specifically. Ikkyo would make more sense.
So my conclusion would be that you have uke stand balanced and prepared with his arm in a yonkyo shape, then tori tries to apply the yonkyo and uke cancels it out? That's quite a cool thing to learn in 5 minutes, but quite a different scenario than the other two.
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Old 07-22-2010, 06:28 AM   #57
DH
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
From which setup do you teach this?
Uke attacks (shomen uchi or aihanmi katate dori or ...), tori performs yonkyo and at the moment tori applies the lock, uke cancels it out? If so, I can't believe the sandan was unable to perform it on the newbie.
Fortunately, in another post you mention the lock is cancelled out at the moment of contact. But if you have uke cancel it out at the moment tori makes contact with uke's attack, yonkyo is almost indistinguishable from ikkyo, nikkyo or sankyo. So why mention yonkyo specifically. Ikkyo would make more sense.
So my conclusion would be that you have uke stand balanced and prepared with his arm in a yonkyo shape, then tori tries to apply the yonkyo and uke cancels it out? That's quite a cool thing to learn in 5 minutes, but quite a different scenario than the other two.
Hello Joseph
Yes it was just static...just an example of potentials to get peoples minds working on an idea. Dude! How much do you think I can do in five or ten minutes?
That said, the various dynamic versions get's more complex but are even more effective, not less effective. The killer being that over time they tend to happen naturally, so you end up either standing there staring at a teacher who is not training aiki, as his best efforts come to not and/or your strikes go right through them, or you decide to take a dive. What most likely will happen though is that you realize as time goes by less and less people can do anything to you. Of course, certain things take a bit of time to burn in, but are quite effective on contact none-the-less, others would take years to condition the body to do.

The point remains; that it's a process that I believe should be taking place every step of the way from the moment someone walks in the door. In the fullness of time, you end up with Daito ryu and aikido people who could go out from the dojo as quite potent players in various venues with an aiki that works; both in attack and neutralizing throws and strikes that actually has meaning. Then, within the dojo, receiving, taking Ukemi and "taking air time" all become choices on any given day, all while every one is learning to be monstrously effective and decisive in using aiki to stop some VERY effective attacks.
Mind/ body conditioning should be matched to external coordination of movement that all contribute to producing aiki effects as a seamless whole. Both of them should be worked together. Unfortunately that is not always the case. Some people are practicing things and really working it and are going to find they were trying to fit the proverbial square peg into a round hole.
It has been my experience that for people in the aiki arts ( Daito ryu and Aikido) there is a way to train that is so empowering and potent, and so much doggone fun, that most look at the old way of doing things as boring and mundane by comparison.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-22-2010 at 06:39 AM.
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Old 07-22-2010, 09:01 AM   #58
chillzATL
Location: ATL
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hello Joseph
Yes it was just static...just an example of potentials to get peoples minds working on an idea. Dude! How much do you think I can do in five or ten minutes?
That said, the various dynamic versions get's more complex but are even more effective, not less effective. The killer being that over time they tend to happen naturally, so you end up either standing there staring at a teacher who is not training aiki, as his best efforts come to not and/or your strikes go right through them, or you decide to take a dive. What most likely will happen though is that you realize as time goes by less and less people can do anything to you. Of course, certain things take a bit of time to burn in, but are quite effective on contact none-the-less, others would take years to condition the body to do.

The point remains; that it's a process that I believe should be taking place every step of the way from the moment someone walks in the door. In the fullness of time, you end up with Daito ryu and aikido people who could go out from the dojo as quite potent players in various venues with an aiki that works; both in attack and neutralizing throws and strikes that actually has meaning. Then, within the dojo, receiving, taking Ukemi and "taking air time" all become choices on any given day, all while every one is learning to be monstrously effective and decisive in using aiki to stop some VERY effective attacks.
Mind/ body conditioning should be matched to external coordination of movement that all contribute to producing aiki effects as a seamless whole. Both of them should be worked together. Unfortunately that is not always the case. Some people are practicing things and really working it and are going to find they were trying to fit the proverbial square peg into a round hole.
It has been my experience that for people in the aiki arts ( Daito ryu and Aikido) there is a way to train that is so empowering and potent, and so much doggone fun, that most look at the old way of doing things as boring and mundane by comparison.
Cheers
Dan
Dan,

Atlanta.

That is all.
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Old 07-22-2010, 09:28 AM   #59
DH
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

Will happen this year
That is all....
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Old 07-22-2010, 09:46 AM   #60
chillzATL
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Will happen this year
That is all....
Good man, now just remember to keep some of us poor sods in mind when it does!
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