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Old 07-14-2010, 06:51 PM   #26
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I can't answer for Larry, but when I show newbies how to very slowly apply sankyo, starting at fingertips and continuing to take out slack working up each joint, if the uke is able to relax and watch me do it to him (because there was no attack and I'm not "doing technique") then once the sankyo works all the way up the arm and through the shoulder, it will click into uke's center and structure and it will be me moving from there undermining his structure that makes him move, not pain in the arm.
Having said that....when it comes to applying sankyo quickly, in training, I'm not consistently able to do this...still working on it....
I can agree with this.

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Old 07-14-2010, 07:39 PM   #27
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

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Ok, I am being a argumentitive. To use the phrase "when performed properly" IMO states that if you are causing pain you are doing it wrong. I do not think I am doing my techniques improperly because they cause pain. Pain is a part of training IMO. I do not rely on pain as the sole motivation. Taking uke's balance is primary.
People train differently. Styles vary. Content is vastly different sometimes. Even principles, and how they are implemented, can be very different. In the end, I believe that there are many different arts that are called Aikido and can be traced back to Ueshiba - but to me, they are very different arts.

In my art that is called Aikido, pain has absolutely no place, from the start as I said. Personal choice, inclination, and training. Not for everyone. Not right or wrong. But in my dojo, if a technique causes pain, it is being done improperly. In another dojo, that wouldn't be the case - as it might be that there, something that I do might be deemed improper.... etc.

Larry Novick
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Old 07-14-2010, 09:09 PM   #28
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

I saw an interview with Donovan Waite Sensei, where he said when asked about his "style" of Aikido, he said it "wasn't any particular style". Instead he believed he was doing the Aikido past down by the Founder. He went on to say "...rather I'm doing my interpretation of the Aikido past down from O'Sensei."

I think everyone has their own personal interpretation of Ueshiba's Aikido. If that brings any coherence to the varied styles of Aikido out there.

MM
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Old 07-14-2010, 09:11 PM   #29
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

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Larry Novick wrote: View Post
Nikkyo - absolutely, no pain when performed properly as a connective technique that allows for Kuzushi - same with Sankyo, although admittedly it's slightly more complicated with Sankyo. But quite possible. What is called for is the skill of connecting through to Center without "disturbing anything else" so to speak.

I don't do or teach Hijishime, it's not part of my/our syllabus, nor is it in some other Aikido styles, as, if I understand the one you are referring to, it works against the joint.

This, to me, is the evolution of Aikido, although clearly O Sensei could do it when he wanted to, so in that sense it's both "progressive and regressive."
agree with you Larry, I think of it as making sure there is no slack so I am directly connected to the core of their body structure (what we call "the one-point") and able to lead them / break balance - however you want to label that feeling.

the thing is if you really are doing it well, you are capable of creating a great deal of pain instantly if you chose to, simply choosing not to because it isn't necessary and as you point out from the story of Tohei Sensei, desirable.

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Old 07-14-2010, 09:18 PM   #30
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

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Ok, I am being a argumentitive. To use the phrase "when performed properly" IMO states that if you are causing pain you are doing it wrong. I do not think I am doing my techniques improperly because they cause pain. Pain is a part of training IMO. I do not rely on pain as the sole motivation. Taking uke's balance is primary.
yes, it's a matter of perspective. Which is fine. From my perspective it's not doing it properly if you can't move you uke without using the pain element in normal practice. Because I've been dropped without pain in nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo and I've learned to do that with others my experience makes me inclined to think of a pain as something I add since the throw can be done without it.

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Old 07-15-2010, 08:24 AM   #31
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

I was at a seminar several years ago taught by Steve Parr Sensei of the BAF, where the emphasis was upon NOT relying upon pain compliance for ANY technique.

His reasoning was that following work he'd done with the police, it was obvious that somebody who was high on certain drugs wouldn't feel any pain, so it was a waste of time trying to arrest them using pain compliance. Instead they should rely upon taking centre / balance and immobilising without pain.

This makes perfect sense to me - how do you know what your attacker 'on the street' has taken, what his / her pain tolerance is, and how long you've got until the police show up?

Ruth
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Old 07-15-2010, 08:50 AM   #32
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

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People train differently. Styles vary. Content is vastly different sometimes. Even principles, and how they are implemented, can be very different. In the end, I believe that there are many different arts that are called Aikido and can be traced back to Ueshiba - but to me, they are very different arts.

In my art that is called Aikido, pain has absolutely no place, from the start as I said. Personal choice, inclination, and training. Not for everyone. Not right or wrong. But in my dojo, if a technique causes pain, it is being done improperly. In another dojo, that wouldn't be the case - as it might be that there, something that I do might be deemed improper.... etc.
If I have an opportunity I would enjoy experiencing what you are explaining. It does sound interesting.

Lyle Laizure
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Old 07-15-2010, 09:02 AM   #33
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

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Ruth Rae wrote: View Post
I was at a seminar several years ago taught by Steve Parr Sensei of the BAF, where the emphasis was upon NOT relying upon pain compliance for ANY technique.

His reasoning was that following work he'd done with the police, it was obvious that somebody who was high on certain drugs wouldn't feel any pain, so it was a waste of time trying to arrest them using pain compliance. Instead they should rely upon taking centre / balance and immobilising without pain.

This makes perfect sense to me - how do you know what your attacker 'on the street' has taken, what his / her pain tolerance is, and how long you've got until the police show up?

Ruth
I agree you cannot rely on pain compliance. You have to take your attacker's center. But I am thinking if you are attacked by an individual that feels no pain or feels limited pain knocking them down by taking their center isn't going to stop the attack. Pinning an attacker with or without pain seems idealistic but not probable without injury.

Lyle Laizure
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Old 07-15-2010, 11:31 AM   #34
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

How about we treat pain like we regard salt.

Can't exist without it, while too much can maim or kill.

Enlightened minds, with well trained bodies, may find the right amount of well earned compassion, to use just enough to make training that much more palatable, meaningful and satisfying.
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Old 07-15-2010, 12:17 PM   #35
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

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Francis Takahashi wrote: View Post
How about we treat pain like we regard salt.

Can't exist without it, while too much can maim or kill.

Enlightened minds, with well trained bodies, may find the right amount of well earned compassion, to use just enough to make training that much more palatable, meaningful and satisfying.
A nice analogy actually, but for me, I would have to say that there are some foods that I do not use salt with at all - in this case, my Aikido. Different palettes, different people, different restaurants.

There can be a "place for pain" in Aikido training in terms of helping people understand that in any "self-defense situation" one may very well get hit, bruised etc. in any encounter. If that experience impacts them enough such that they cannot stay present, then it can be a good idea to work with that process at a certain level so the person can get accoustomed to the experience so they can deal with it in real life. But that is a completely different aspect than what this thread is about, as far as I understand it. I'm talking about the application of Aikido waza.

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Old 07-15-2010, 12:20 PM   #36
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

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If I have an opportunity I would enjoy experiencing what you are explaining. It does sound interesting.
Maybe one day there will be another big Aikido-L internet list get-together, like in the "old days" - that way we can all share what we're all doing....

Larry Novick
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Old 07-15-2010, 12:52 PM   #37
Janet Rosen
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

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Maybe one day there will be another big Aikido-L internet list get-together, like in the "old days" - that way we can all share what we're all doing....
(sigh)
Meanwhile, I'd recommend a visit to Larry's dojo to anybody visiting nearby; it's sadly been too many years since I"ve been down there but I was always treated warmly and respectfully by the folks at ACE, had a good time, and came away having learned something.

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Old 07-15-2010, 01:16 PM   #38
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

I'm curious about when in the course of a technique pain would be expected and legitimate.

I came up with this list.

Nikyo, sankyo and other joint locks applied faster than the uke can deal with them.

Pins cranked on after uke is immobilized to produce pain or for some obscure reason.

Throws done with lots of added energy, beyond what uke supplied. The resulting splat might hurt or damage if uke isn't prepared for it or up to it.

Atemi that make hard contact.

I see something objectionable with all of the above situations. Is there some other reason to expect a technique to hurt?

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 07-15-2010, 01:35 PM   #39
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

Mark what you describe, to me that is, is someone being zealous to over-zealous in their practice. Thus, pain resulting from that action, and not a result from a painless technique and what is or isn't learned from that.

From that as well, and being a different topic, we learn from such painful experiences and people as well. I would learn and understand the greater scope and dynamic of a nikkyo etc. As well as how to defend and protect myself from the technique. Just as example.

But to keep on track, painless techniques is there something to learn from them or not. Which also is inferred to be the same for painful techniques.
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Old 07-15-2010, 01:42 PM   #40
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

*shrug* I've always been told that O'sensei' stuff hurt, Tohie's stuff hurt. I don't disagree with any of the other stuff regarding center, but the notion that there should be no pain or that if it hurts it's wrong seems absurd to me.

None of this has anything to do with "relying on pain" btw...
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Old 07-15-2010, 02:09 PM   #41
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

Quote:
Larry Novick wrote: View Post
People train differently. Styles vary. Content is vastly different sometimes. Even principles, and how they are implemented, can be very different. In the end, I believe that there are many different arts that are called Aikido and can be traced back to Ueshiba - but to me, they are very different arts.

In my art that is called Aikido, pain has absolutely no place, from the start as I said. Personal choice, inclination, and training. Not for everyone. Not right or wrong. But in my dojo, if a technique causes pain, it is being done improperly. In another dojo, that wouldn't be the case - as it might be that there, something that I do might be deemed improper.... etc.
Dear Mr Novick,
You indicate that in your Aikido there is no place for pain.Can you tell me how you deal with /accommodate a person who as nage cranks on a powerful technique on you?
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 07-15-2010, 02:10 PM   #42
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
*shrug* I've always been told that O'sensei' stuff hurt, Tohie's stuff hurt. I don't disagree with any of the other stuff regarding center, but the notion that there should be no pain or that if it hurts it's wrong seems absurd to me.

None of this has anything to do with "relying on pain" btw...
The notion that pain is acceptable, "relying on it" or not, in Aikido, is absurd to me. The way to practice Aikido in said manner is available for those who want it. We all make our own choices.

Larry Novick
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Old 07-15-2010, 02:56 PM   #43
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

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Larry Novick wrote: View Post
There can be a "place for pain" in Aikido training in terms of helping people understand that in any "self-defense situation" one may very well get hit, bruised etc. in any encounter. If that experience impacts them enough such that they cannot stay present, then it can be a good idea to work with that process at a certain level so the person can get accoustomed to the experience so they can deal with it in real life. But that is a completely different aspect than what this thread is about, as far as I understand it. I'm talking about the application of Aikido waza.
I don't think we are so different after all.

Lyle Laizure
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Old 07-15-2010, 03:03 PM   #44
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

I am just curious, and find my question relevant to the thread, where did the idea of waza being painless come from?
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Old 07-15-2010, 03:28 PM   #45
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

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Dear Mr Novick,
You indicate that in your Aikido there is no place for pain.Can you tell me how you deal with /accommodate a person who as nage cranks on a powerful technique on you?
Cheers, Joe.
Hi Joe (Mr Curran...) - It depends. My style is completely dependant, and always has been, on what these days people here are calling "internal training/skills" (although trained in a different manner than what is sometimes espoused here) so unless I'm spaced out, which can certainly happen (pizza etc....), they won't normally be able to affect me in that manner. In "simple terms" my "Ki is extended" and hard joint locks won't work. This is basic stuff in (at least older) Ki Society training - although I am not Ki Society. In my style, we call it being "ACEed Up" (the Awareness of being Centeredly Extended) and for us it is a good dynamic state to practice Aikido from.

That being said, if something does "get past me" then we look at why their technique hurt. Either they meant it to, or they didn't and they performed it incorrectly. Either way, I dissect it for them so they can see how to do it without any pain (and there is always a way.) Then, if they actually meant to do it, which doesn't happen with any of my regular students, I have a talk with them.

It happens that people's techniques hurt - it's feedback that they need to be shown how to do it correctly (in my style.) It is all a learning process.

By the way, we do all the "normal" Aikido techniques except elbow locks against the joint, and Shomen ate from the chin.

Larry Novick
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Old 07-15-2010, 03:40 PM   #46
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

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Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post
I don't think we are so different after all.
Perhaps not. But again, with the whole discussion about pain, I understand it to relate to doing techniques that are applied painfully etc....

Last edited by Aiki1 : 07-15-2010 at 03:51 PM.

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Old 07-15-2010, 06:04 PM   #47
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

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Larry Novick wrote: View Post
Hi Joe (Mr Curran...) - It depends. My style is completely dependant, and always has been, on what these days people here are calling "internal training/skills" (although trained in a different manner than what is sometimes espoused here) so unless I'm spaced out, which can certainly happen (pizza etc....), they won't normally be able to affect me in that manner. In "simple terms" my "Ki is extended" and hard joint locks won't work. This is basic stuff in (at least older) Ki Society training - although I am not Ki Society. In my style, we call it being "ACEed Up" (the Awareness of being Centeredly Extended) and for us it is a good dynamic state to practice Aikido from.

That being said, if something does "get past me" then we look at why their technique hurt. Either they meant it to, or they didn't and they performed it incorrectly. Either way, I dissect it for them so they can see how to do it without any pain (and there is always a way.) Then, if they actually meant to do it, which doesn't happen with any of my regular students, I have a talk with them.

It happens that people's techniques hurt - it's feedback that they need to be shown how to do it correctly (in my style.) It is all a learning process.

By the way, we do all the "normal" Aikido techniques except elbow locks against the joint, and Shomen ate from the chin.
Dear Novick Sensei,
I am interested in your comments here in particular the last
couple of paragraphs when you say that should someones waza cause pain , you dissect it for them so they can see how to do the waza without pain.I have a problem here with this explanation inasmuch the person doing the waza might well be doing it correctly while at the same time Uke may not be respondng to the actions of Nage.
It seems to me that you are putting the onus primarily on Nage.
If Nage is a 'Bad boy' and he cranks it on intentionally you take him to one side and give him a fatherly chat.Incidentally what course of action do you take if BadBoy ignores your chat?
At the same time if Nage does a good waza correctly and Uke screeches the place down the onus for ukes pain from your perspective still falls on Nage. This suggests to me that your school seems to ignore Ukes responsibility for his own safety in the interaction between the two people.

As far as your Ki extension is concerned and your ability to be unaffected by joint locks is concerned I believe that a well executed sankyo for example rarely fails to work whether someone is or isnt extending Ki.As a point of interest why do you also avoid attacks to the chin and Rokkyo?Is this common practice within Ki orientated dojo?
I ask these points purely to glean info on how other groups see Aikido. Cheers, Joe
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:17 PM   #48
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I am just curious, and find my question relevant to the thread, where did the idea of waza being painless come from?
Hi Phil,
I have been training for 40 years and I have never heard any Shihan state that Aikido is painless.When you are at the receiving end of some Shihans waza I can tell you sometimes my body was in pain.Its also a myth that you do not require strength to do Aikido.Up till now I have never met an senior Shihan who would be classed as a puny , weak individual.Incorrect use of strength is to be avoided but strength in itself is ok.Maybe its a case of Urban Myths???
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:44 PM   #49
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
I am interested in your comments here in particular the last
couple of paragraphs when you say that should someones waza cause pain , you dissect it for them so they can see how to do the waza without pain.I have a problem here with this explanation inasmuch the person doing the waza might well be doing it correctly while at the same time Uke may not be respondng to the actions of Nage.
The answer is that if the technique is being done correctly, both physically and kinesthetically, which we do not separate, it will Not cause pain. It's not about Uke responding to what Nage is doing in that sense. The pain only comes from incorrect execution (in my dojo.) Proper Kuzushi occurs, without pain, and Uke, in essence, has no choice about it.
Quote:
It seems to me that you are putting the onus primarily on Nage.
If Nage is a 'Bad boy' and he cranks it on intentionally you take him to one side and give him a fatherly chat.
In that sense, the onus is indeed on Nage.
Quote:
Incidentally what course of action do you take if BadBoy ignores your chat?
If someone really continues to consciously hurt people, which has never happened, they would not be allowed to practice at my dojo.
Quote:
At the same time if Nage does a good waza correctly and Uke screeches the place down the onus for ukes pain from your perspective still falls on Nage. This suggests to me that your school seems to ignore Ukes responsibility for his own safety in the interaction between the two people.
I just have to say again, there is no way that Uke would screech if Nage does a good waza correctly. Without "understanding that" there's no real way to explain this way of practicing/learning Aikido. Pain is not a factor in our Aikido waza. Now, this isn't to say that we don't all make mistakes. In that sense, in that situation, Uke is responsible for his own safety, and because the possibility for this is always present, Uke is therefore "always responsible" for his own safety.
Quote:
As far as your Ki extension is concerned and your ability to be unaffected by joint locks is concerned I believe that a well executed sankyo for example rarely fails to work whether someone is or isnt extending Ki.
I don't know how to answer this exactly, we have different experiences. Have you ever trained in a good, solid Ki Society dojo where this stuff was taught? Maybe so, I don't know. That being said, Sankyo may be the "most difficult" to "counter" with Ki, but by no means impossible. Nikkyo, Yonkyo, Kotegaeshi…. all "not too dificult." This was one of Tohei's points early on about Aikido practice - "Attack with Ki" and maintain "one's integrity" which is what he experienced from O Sensei, and "regular execution of technique" does not work. I'm paraphrasing. Read his early writings about his experiences with O Sensei, other instructors and deshi, and how he formulated his approach to Aikido. Some of the answers are there.
Quote:
As a point of interest why do you also avoid attacks to the chin and Rokkyo?Is this common practice within Ki orientated dojo?
I don't teach any technique that goes against a joint. As far as I know most "Ki-oriented" dojo don't, but I really don't know anymore. They may very well still do chin stuff, as Tohei seemed to like that in his early days (you can see him taking Terry Dobson down that way), but again, I don't really know now. I don't do it for a few reasons…. partly because, again, with a certain "use of Ki" it isn't necessarily effective per se.
Quote:
I ask these points purely to glean info on how other groups see Aikido. Cheers, Joe
I'm always interested as well.

By the way, I am independant for a reason.

Larry Novick
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ACE Aikido
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:46 PM   #50
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Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

Hi Joe,

Thanks Joe, I was curious if O'Sensei or if a Shihan said something about it. Or if it is something that has naturally came about from O'Sensei's philosophy. I appreciate your input.

To the general forum, I personally don't feel it is wrong to be painless or not. My concern is toward exploring the topic for the benefit of us Aikidoka.
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