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Old 07-01-2010, 11:05 PM   #51
mickeygelum
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Re: Minimum Testing Requirements/Guidelines

Thanks for the PM's, folks...

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 07-01-2010, 11:06 PM   #52
David Yap
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Re: Minimum Testing Requirements/Guidelines

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I would strongly suggest doing research about Ueshiba.

For instance, Mochizuki started training with Ueshiba around April 1931. Mochizuki was awarded the second highest rank/scroll from Ueshiba in June 1932.
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=67

Tomiki started training with Ueshiba around 1926-1927. He trained off and on until around 1934, when he moved to Tokyo. He trained until 1936 when he moved to Manchuria. Tomiki received 8th dan from Ueshiba in 1940. Start to 8th dan in 14 years. (And that's not even getting into the actual training time Tomiki spent with Ueshiba in those 14 years.)
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=60

There are other instances of Ueshiba just handing out rank when you dig into the research.
Mark,

In the old days, Ueshiba did not accept anyone without any martial art background as students. If you look at the backgrounds of Mochizuki, Tomiki, Shioda, Shirata, Tohei, Akazawa, you will find that these gentlemen are/were competent martial artists even before joining Ueshiba. I believe the ranks handed out to them were based on their skill set rather than the time they put into training with him. There may be some exceptions which I am not aware of. Basically, we are looking at different set of standards - then & now.

Regards
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Old 07-01-2010, 11:48 PM   #53
David Yap
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Re: Minimum Testing Requirements/Guidelines

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Sorry, Mary. English is certainly not my mother tongue, so maybe I didn't make myself clear...
AV,

I think so too particularly with your tack line:

"The goal is to protect your attacker, then yourself!" --MS
"Oh, really. Me says that's BS!" --AV

The way I read MS's statement is that the GOAL of training is to acquire the skillset whereby one could protect oneself without inflicting (serious) injury to the attacker. The GOAL has no time bar. If the GOAL is BS, then why bother stepping on the mats.

Happy training

David Y
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Old 07-02-2010, 01:27 AM   #54
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Re: Minimum Testing Requirements/Guidelines

Quote:
David Yap wrote: View Post
AV,

I think so too particularly with your tack line:

"The goal is to protect your attacker, then yourself!" --MS
"Oh, really. Me says that's BS!" --AV

The way I read MS's statement is that the GOAL of training is to acquire the skillset whereby one could protect oneself without inflicting (serious) injury to the attacker. The GOAL has no time bar. If the GOAL is BS, then why bother stepping on the mats.

Happy training

David Y
David, MS was certainly not meaning that when that was said. Anyway, there are more than one goal or milestones in that kind of situations: first goal, protect yourself; second goal, if possible, don't maim your attacker; last goal, if possible, don't kill him.
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Old 07-02-2010, 05:24 AM   #55
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: Minimum Testing Requirements/Guidelines

Quote:
David Yap wrote: View Post
In the old days, Ueshiba did not accept anyone without any martial art background as students. If you look at the backgrounds of Mochizuki, Tomiki, Shioda, Shirata, Tohei, Akazawa, you will find that these gentlemen are/were competent martial artists even before joining Ueshiba. I believe the ranks handed out to them were based on their skill set rather than the time they put into training with him. There may be some exceptions which I am not aware of. Basically, we are looking at different set of standards - then & now.
Osensei didn't even name his art "Aikido" until he moved to Iwama, by which point plenty of local people started it with him as their first martial art. It was also around this time that the current minimum standards and the modern naming of techniques started getting developed. The Founder gave some people third dans within ten years with no martial arts background prior to Aikido. If only it was a just a matter of training for more time to get the same skills.
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Old 07-02-2010, 06:12 AM   #56
MM
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Re: Minimum Testing Requirements/Guidelines

Quote:
David Yap wrote: View Post
Mark,

In the old days, Ueshiba did not accept anyone without any martial art background as students. If you look at the backgrounds of Mochizuki, Tomiki, Shioda, Shirata, Tohei, Akazawa, you will find that these gentlemen are/were competent martial artists even before joining Ueshiba. I believe the ranks handed out to them were based on their skill set rather than the time they put into training with him. There may be some exceptions which I am not aware of. Basically, we are looking at different set of standards - then & now.

Regards
Two quick examples of post war students. Many students, both prewar and postwar, had training in other various martial arts before studying aikido. As Carl Thompson noted, some did not and still were promoted quickly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazuo_Chiba
Started 1958
Sandan 1960
Yondan 1962
6th dan 1970

4 years start to 4th dan.
12 years start to 6th dan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsunari_Kanai
Started 1958
Yondan 1966

8 years start to 4th dan.
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Old 07-02-2010, 06:30 AM   #57
David Yap
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Re: Minimum Testing Requirements/Guidelines

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
David, MS was certainly not meaning that when that was said. Anyway, there are more than one goal or milestones in that kind of situations: first goal, protect yourself; second goal, if possible, don't maim your attacker; last goal, if possible, don't kill him.
Over to you, MS.

AV,

I was referring to your tack line, I have no clue as to how this conversation between you & MS came about.

Regards

David Y
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Old 07-02-2010, 06:32 AM   #58
David Yap
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Re: Minimum Testing Requirements/Guidelines

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Two quick examples of post war students. Many students, both prewar and postwar, had training in other various martial arts before studying aikido. As Carl Thompson noted, some did not and still were promoted quickly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazuo_Chiba
Started 1958
Sandan 1960
Yondan 1962
6th dan 1970

4 years start to 4th dan.
12 years start to 6th dan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsunari_Kanai
Started 1958
Yondan 1966

8 years start to 4th dan.
These guys were uchideshi, they trained 7-eleven. Chiba trained 6 months in Iwama. The 6 months training is equivalent to our 3 years' training.
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Old 07-02-2010, 07:06 AM   #59
MM
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Re: Minimum Testing Requirements/Guidelines

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David Yap wrote: View Post
These guys were uchideshi, they trained 7-eleven. Chiba trained 6 months in Iwama. The 6 months training is equivalent to our 3 years' training.
Trained 7-eleven with whom? I think it's been established that it wasn't with the founder, at least not in Tokyo.

And is there any articles, evidence, etc to uphold that the training was all day, long days, etc with the founder?

In Iwama ... What exactly was the training schedule like?

According to this web site, things certainly were much different than many people have put forth:

http://www.iwama-aikido.com/Saito_Interview.html

Q: Who among the Senseis today have been uchi deshis?

A: Well, if you speak of Senseis like; Yamada, Tamura, Tohei, Saotome and Kanai they all are students of Kisshomaru Ueshiba. They never went to Iwama and practised for O-Sensei. Chiba Sensei once stayed in Iwama for 3 months.

I think all this "those guys trained 16 hour days for years and years" stuff is getting kind of old. At some point, it would be nice to have people actually research this. There are interviews that state portions of the training schedule, how long training with the founder actually was, etc.

Instead of perpetuating myths, it would be nice to know exact information. Or at least as close as possible ...
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Old 07-02-2010, 08:16 AM   #60
Budd
 
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Re: Minimum Testing Requirements/Guidelines

Yes, but it's much easier and less taxing to repeat "My sensei said" or "I once heard" type stories with authority than to go do some research into the topic and compare views from multiple sources. It also probably helps to assimilate into dojos where it's expected that there's one correct viewpoint and method of practice.
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Old 07-02-2010, 10:21 AM   #61
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Re: Minimum Testing Requirements/Guidelines

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
There are Japanese arts in which the first grading you would take would be shodan. If their grading syllabus says "shodan requirements = membership of dojo" as the only criterion then nothing would be amiss (and it would be nothing like the minimum requirements being discussed here). It's going to take the average teacher roughly a certain amount of time to pass on certain skills. Even if we were all learning exactly the same thing, shorter timescales to learn that thing mean either training harder and more often under very good teachers or something is amiss and labels are being attached to things that don't reflect their content.

Moreover, we're discussing minimum requirements. One of the reasons why teachers take a bit longer is to be absolutely sure that they have met those requirements as well as doing whatever extra things their particular lineage regards as important (kata, weapons etc). Some of course are just being competitive, trying to make out that they are better teachers. Eventually it goes beyond merely insuring all the bases have been covered and ends up with teachers trying to fiddle the system to make themselves look good. It can go the other way too with teachers producing high level students in a short time that have not received the skills that are claimed to have been passed on.
In the end I think most would prefer to be a good looking kyu, than a crappy looking dan.

MM
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Old 07-02-2010, 11:50 AM   #62
Rob Watson
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Re: signing a contract

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Memory FAIL. I warned y'all. Thanks Asim Hanif. Also I should have clarified that I mean't minimum reqs regarding hours/years ... there are more requirements than training time to meet the minimums for consideration of advancement to the next level-these will vary across orgs, natually.
Well, not so bad after all. True the CAA minimum reqs are there. The dojo has more stringent reqs 520 (I thought 540) training days and 2 years for nidan. Safe to say that generally the hombu minimums are respected and an org/assoc may have different but probably attempt to at least meet hombu minimums and individual dojocho may decide another set of reqs that are again above the mins of either the org/assoc or hombu.

Not to mention there is the requirement that one perform the technique correctly which entails considerably more than just getting the form correct and this is a completely subjective assessment by the sensei and testing examiners.

Worry about the time and number/type of techniques is going about it from the wrong direction - this leads to the proliferation of McDojo and rank for cash. Train in the moment and do your best with sincerity and care for your partners and the ranks will come.

Mastery? Sixth dan is awarded upon demonstration of mastery in these parts. Seems like a good time to play with ri (as in shu-ha-ri) as well. I'm spoiled since there are a bunch of 5 and 4 dans at the dojo so sandan is really no big deal (we'll see what they have to say about it).

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 07-03-2010, 12:24 AM   #63
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Re: Minimum Testing Requirements/Guidelines

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Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
In the end I think most would prefer to be a good looking kyu, than a crappy looking dan.
Personally, I'd forget about looking good and go for the skills. If it takes three years to get them and they call it shodan, then that's great. If it takes ten years to get exactly the same skills and they call it shodan, then that's no problem either. If you get those exact same skills in three years but they call it "third kyu" or "level 2" or even "Albert", the most important thing is getting the skills.

In any case, you are not learning and measuring the exact same thing. If you're getting your certification from the Aikikai, you have a few minimum techniques and time limits on your technical syllabus that correspond and even they are just "guidelines".
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Old 07-03-2010, 03:13 AM   #64
David Yap
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Re: Minimum Testing Requirements/Guidelines

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Trained 7-eleven with whom? I think it's been established that it wasn't with the founder, at least not in Tokyo.

And is there any articles, evidence, etc to uphold that the training was all day, long days, etc with the founder?

In Iwama ... What exactly was the training schedule like?

According to this web site, things certainly were much different than many people have put forth:

http://www.iwama-aikido.com/Saito_Interview.html

Q: Who among the Senseis today have been uchi deshis?

A: Well, if you speak of Senseis like; Yamada, Tamura, Tohei, Saotome and Kanai they all are students of Kisshomaru Ueshiba. They never went to Iwama and practised for O-Sensei. Chiba Sensei once stayed in Iwama for 3 months.

I think all this "those guys trained 16 hour days for years and years" stuff is getting kind of old. At some point, it would be nice to have people actually research this. There are interviews that state portions of the training schedule, how long training with the founder actually was, etc.

Instead of perpetuating myths, it would be nice to know exact information. Or at least as close as possible ...
Mark,

K, you made your point. I was out by 3 months for Chiba sensei's internship at Iwama.

Your definition of uchideshi seems to indicate that those who studied with O Sensei at Iwama were the ones counted, anywhere else were not. Are you indicating that the materials loaded on the wikipedia regarding the USAF shihans are not accurate by your definition?

Bear in mind that lay guys like me have internet resources to our research. By your indication, these shihans moved up the ranks at a very short period compared to today's standard, would you not agree that the ranks they were given were appropriate to their skillset at that time?

You will save us much time searching for the answers since you have already done the research.

Regards

David Y
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Old 07-03-2010, 07:00 AM   #65
MM
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Re: Minimum Testing Requirements/Guidelines

Quote:
David Yap wrote: View Post
Mark,

K, you made your point. I was out by 3 months for Chiba sensei's internship at Iwama.

Your definition of uchideshi seems to indicate that those who studied with O Sensei at Iwama were the ones counted, anywhere else were not. Are you indicating that the materials loaded on the wikipedia regarding the USAF shihans are not accurate by your definition?

Bear in mind that lay guys like me have internet resources to our research. By your indication, these shihans moved up the ranks at a very short period compared to today's standard, would you not agree that the ranks they were given were appropriate to their skillset at that time?

You will save us much time searching for the answers since you have already done the research.

Regards

David Y
David,
I don't get too much into definitions of "uchideshi" and "deshi" in regards to Ueshiba Morihei. I think of them as students. Some were in Tokyo, some in Iwama, some both, some elsewhere. Uchideshi and deshi is a can of worms someone else can open.

As for the shihan, their ranks, and their appropriate skill sets, I have no clue. I'm just pointing out the facts regarding years training and rank given ... and questioning the much repeated phrase about the long hours and days of training that many students of Ueshiba put in.

I've done some small amount of research and found information on parts of the daily lives of students, both pre-war and post-war. It was never in the front of what I was searching for, so I never really put it all together.

Mark
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Old 08-31-2010, 10:39 AM   #66
Walter Martindale
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Re: Minimum Testing Requirements/Guidelines

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I agree with grading according to skill. I've seen people who have had the days fail because of skill. And I don't like the mentality that you should be given a belt just because your days are up. Frankly, it takes most people more than 600 days to be good enough to meet the standards of Nidan.
But I disagree that keeping track of how long you've done something is useless and just for money. I see where it has its place in correlation to a student's development. It is generally accurate. It does take about 60 days or more of training for most people to be able to pull off a 5th kyu exam.(according to the standards set by this particular federation.) And it does generally take 700 days or more after nidan for a person to be able to perform up to the high standards of a sandan exam.
Hombu dojo goes by days as well for this reason.
I've seen someone get shodan in less than 3 years - but he really was a "natural." I've also seen people sit at sankyu for 6 years - oh, right, that was me. (helps to have a dojo nearby, which has training sessions after, rather than during, work hours)
When I tested for Ikkyu, the two others and who also tested were told by the shihan that he wanted us to test Shodan within a year - I did mine in 13 months. Almost 3 years, a country and two dojo later, I went for nidan, but IIRC the requirement was minimum 200 hours and minimum 2 years.
It's still all a mystery - If I don't get confused at some point during an aikido practice, I don't feel as if I'm learning..
Walter
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