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Old 06-18-2010, 09:36 AM   #26
C. David Henderson
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Re: One very confused Aikidoka

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Hi Mark,

However, taking all this in consideration, aikidoka must not take for granted that practice must be safe. This is the worst error that has the most important consequences in approach for aikido as an art, but also the consequences are in the way how everyone practices physically on the tatami daily.
Excellent, thoughtful post, and a very important point, in my view.

If I feel too safe, the interaction seems to diminish in value accordingly for training. On the other hand I don't read this as advocating a breach in dojo etiquette, but rather providing a sliding scale for defining the balance between safe and effective practice.

Thank you for your insight.

Regards.

David Henderson
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Old 06-18-2010, 10:50 AM   #27
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: What are uke's rights?

The dojo should be a "dilemma rich environment" to be sure, but that is also why "budo begins and ends in respect" and we must always take care of our partner. Nishioka Tsuneo Sensei told me that after you make rei as you enter the training area "you should be in a state of life and death seriousness" until you make rei as you leave the dojo. It is the teacher's responsibility to ensure that the proper levels of balance are correct.

Chuck Clark
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Old 06-18-2010, 10:56 AM   #28
RED
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Re: What are uke's rights?

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Daniel Lloyd wrote: View Post
What are uke's rights?

I almost received a elbow injury from said nage, and I think it's from my lower level ukemi, ?
Are you sure it isn't due to a low level nage? I mean, I can't see anyone who knows what they are doing repeatedly hurting an uke.. even a first day on the mat uke. Nage has to be sensitive and train to their uke's level..I mean, it's Aikido. We sort of specialize in not injuring our attackers here! So if nage hurts you, nage is at fault.
Personally, I've never been hut by a dan rank... the lower the rank, the more it hurts to train with them. It is almost proportional in my experience.

Personally, you have the right to bow respectfully out on anyone you feel is repeatedly going to injure you. It isn't rude, if they give you grief take it up with your sensei. You have a right not to have your Aikido career cut short because of mindless injury.

Last edited by RED : 06-18-2010 at 10:59 AM.

MM
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Old 06-18-2010, 11:29 AM   #29
Marc Abrams
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Re: One very confused Aikidoka

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Hi Mark,
I believe the duality bujutsu/budo is rather recent western concept. I think for Japanese martial artist is all the same as inherited from their culture. I like Clark idea "Real budo training teaches us how to do our best to keep others from harming us while doing as little harm as possible". As aikido develops compassion for attacker, the etiquette becomes the central point for dojo behavior.

However, taking all this in consideration, aikidoka must not take for granted that practice must be safe. This is the worst error that has the most important consequences in approach for aikido as an art, but also the consequences are in the way how everyone practices physically on the tatami daily.

The art is how to have constructive practice together without feeling completely safe(for uke AND tori!!! ). I think there is no simple answer for that.

I believe "gentlemen agreement" idea is responsible for watering down aikido last few years. Because of such idea, martial context is completely absent in aikido practice as we can see in most aikido videos on YT.

O sensei advised we practice EVERY technique like the LAST technique in our life, like it is a technique that will decide between life and death. This is the only criteria that differentiate Budo from Sport Fighting. How would you preserve such spirit of practice knowing that practice is safe? -- It will be impossible. That is why you can see so many sloppy attacks -- they have no real, martial meaning -- it became the mimics and parody of the attacks.

That is why you can see so many sloppy aikido techniques, no martial spirit at all, most people simply don't care. They know whatever they do, attacker will fall down every time, and everybody around will tap their shoulder saying: "well done, Johnny, well done!!! And the Ego will grow bigger and bigger, more politics, more disagreements....…this way the ultimate goal of Founder will never be realized.
Szczepan:

I just back from training in Japan again (with Ushiro Sensei). The distinction between budo and bujutsu is really their distinction. The level and nature of the distinction for them is real and openly talked about. I absolutely agree with the rest of what you are talking about. Unrealistic attacks and a collusive training atmosphere only results in a delusional product for all involved. The sincerity of nage and uke that you speak of (and Chuck Clark Sensei so eloquently describes) still involves some degree of gentlemen agreement in that I am trusting you to know how and when to stop when you are in the role of uke. Likewise, the nage should have trust that my attack will be sincere and push the nage to the limits. On the flip side of unrealistic attacks and collusive ukes, there are well-know examples of sadistic teachers who have taken advantage of the trust and intentionally injured students. I have personally observed that and have been at the receiving end of practice with people who were simply looking to injure the uke. Finding the right balance is critical in order to truly advance one's level of budo.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 06-18-2010, 11:35 AM   #30
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: One very confused Aikidoka

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
I have personally ...been at the receiving end of practice with people who were simply looking to injure the uke.
Marc,

How did you handle that situation?

Were you actually injured?

Would you train with that person as nage again?

...rab
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Old 06-18-2010, 11:42 AM   #31
lbb
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Re: One very confused Aikidoka

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
However, taking all this in consideration, aikidoka must not take for granted that practice must be safe. This is the worst error that has the most important consequences in approach for aikido as an art, but also the consequences are in the way how everyone practices physically on the tatami daily.
Agreed. However...

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
The art is how to have constructive practice together without feeling completely safe(for uke AND tori!!! ). I think there is no simple answer for that.

I believe "gentlemen agreement" idea is responsible for watering down aikido last few years. Because of such idea, martial context is completely absent in aikido practice as we can see in most aikido videos on YT.
Is it "constructive practice" if someone goes to the hospital every day? You obviously scorn what you call the "gentlemen's agreement", but do you really agree that if you make a mistake, your partner not only may, but should inflict maximum damage on you?
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Old 06-18-2010, 12:48 PM   #32
Marc Abrams
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Re: One very confused Aikidoka

Quote:
Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
Marc,

How did you handle that situation?

Were you actually injured?

Would you train with that person as nage again?

...rab
Rabih:

The last time that this happened was last September at a seminar taught by my instructor. The clown suddenly went neanderthal on a katate-kosa-tori, ikkyo irimi. Even allowing my body to go instantly horizontal, I did receive a grade 1, shoulder separation and may need surgery in November. My teacher was looking directly at me when I got up. I simply grabbed him with the other arm and when he tried to do that again, I grounded him out and asked him why he was pushing me away from him, suggesting that he try the technique in another manner. This person was an instructor from another school in the area. Granted, I was not 100% alert, which is why I did not go horizontal quick enough, the simple fact was that this was an intentional act that was totally out of character with the situation.

My response would have been different many of years ago. I truly believe that Aikido has made me a better person. I did not feel the need for retribution and kept my center.
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Old 06-18-2010, 01:29 PM   #33
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: One very confused Aikidoka

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
My response would have been different many of years ago. I truly believe that Aikido has made me a better person. I did not feel the need for retribution and kept my center.
That's impressive. I'm sure I would have at least given him the hairy eyeball and asked him what his problem was.

Hope the shoulder heals up on its own.

...rab
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Old 06-18-2010, 02:54 PM   #34
Basia Halliop
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Re: What are uke's rights?

Quote:
I believe "gentlemen agreement" idea is responsible for watering down aikido last few years. Because of such idea, martial context is completely absent in aikido practice as we can see in most aikido videos on YT.
OK, I'm starting to see somewhat more what you're arguing for, I think... but still, even if making things 'too safe-feeling' is a problem, I don't believe what you've described actually contradicts anything I or some others are saying about consent... And it's equally possible for two people (or more) to have an understanding that they're NOT going to try to make each other feel safe or trust each other.
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:14 PM   #35
RED
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Re: What are uke's rights?

I stick by the concept of training to the weakest partners ability. If you are both san dans and in great shape...have at it. But if you are an in shape san dan with a portly 2nd kyu, take it easy.

MM
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Old 06-18-2010, 06:56 PM   #36
Shadowfax
 
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Re: What are uke's rights?

Any time I feel uncomfortable working with someone I make sure to talk to my sensei about it. Its happened to me a couple of times.

Sometimes he helps me adjust myself and sometimes he helps by adjusting said partner. But somehow once I have made him aware of the problem it , ceases to be a problem. I've made a point to make sure to work with those people as much as I can until I am no longer uncomfortable with them. Usually they are the ones you learn from the most. And eventually you might find that you look forward to and really enjoy working with them.
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Old 06-19-2010, 12:20 AM   #37
eyrie
 
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Re: What are uke's rights?

Frankie Dunn: You forgot the rule. Now, what is the rule?
Maggie Fitzgerald: Keep my left up?
Frankie Dunn: Is to protect yourself at all times. Now, what is the rule?
Maggie Fitzgerald: Protect myself at all times.
Frankie Dunn: Good. Good.

Million Dollar Baby

Ignatius
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Old 06-19-2010, 08:50 PM   #38
Andrew Macdonald
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Re: What are uke's rights?

if i can just as an off the wall question

does any one here train tomiki style? does that style suffer from the same problem?
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Old 06-21-2010, 02:55 PM   #39
L. Camejo
 
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Re: What are uke's rights?

Quote:
Andrew Macdonald wrote: View Post
if i can just as an off the wall question

does any one here train tomiki style? does that style suffer from the same problem?
Not so much from my experience.

Safety is a prime and critical factor in all training whether it be Kata or Randori. All students are taught to be very aware of their surroundings and be an active participant in maintaining ones own safety through zanshin, sensitivity and ukemi.

This awareness is trained from day 1 since in shiai or full resistance randori if one is not aware of ones body in space and the potential for damage it can result in injury if one is training with an "eager beaver". The speed of striking and techniques here is very high so the potential for injury is great if one is asleep mentally.

Many of the techniques in shiai however have been modified to minimize the potential for severe injury when in a heated match and any execution of waza in a manner that can seriously injure can cause one to lose a match outright so it makes sense for one to protect the other person while still working on executing effective waza.

So as said earlier, Uke has the responsibility to keep himself safe, just as Tori has the responsibility to execute waza in a safe manner as much as humanly possible.

Just some thoughts.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 06-22-2010, 12:23 AM   #40
Andrew Macdonald
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Re: What are uke's rights?

i have no experience and very little knowledge of tomiki style but i do know from studying competitive martial arts that that people ego can be easier kept in check sometimes (and of course can be great inflated sometimes) and an over zealous nage would soon find himself learning a very hard lesson about training levels
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Old 06-22-2010, 08:51 AM   #41
L. Camejo
 
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Re: What are uke's rights?

Quote:
Andrew Macdonald wrote: View Post
i have no experience and very little knowledge of tomiki style but i do know from studying competitive martial arts that that people ego can be easier kept in check sometimes (and of course can be great inflated sometimes) and an over zealous nage would soon find himself learning a very hard lesson about training levels
Quite true. Resistance and competition training usually keeps folks humble as one is very realistic when judging ones actual capabilities.

However there will always be those who need repeated lessons before the point gets across and the rate of any injury can be directly related to that person's unwillingness to relax, stop fighting and just train.

Best

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 06-22-2010, 01:03 PM   #42
DonMagee
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Re: What are uke's rights?

I ask them if they are looking to drill or spar. I have no problem with their attitude if they want to spar. If they say they want to drill I remind them that the next time they decide to crank on me like I'm an in-animate object, we will be proceeding to sparing without any warning.

Of course I don't advise this avenue of thought for beginners.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-22-2010, 01:14 PM   #43
Rob Watson
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Re: What are uke's rights?

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote: View Post
The dojo should be a "dilemma rich environment"
Sweet. I also like the line from one of Ellis Amdurs books (memory fails me here) and I'll just paraphrase 'we must try to kill each other but not hurt each other' ... another great dilemma. Total koan that is best solved by simply trying ones best to make it real while retaining sanity and decorum.

In my book uke has the right to make me look like a fool for having such lame technique and expect my gratitude in return.

I have not seen that many injuries but every time when a senior was injured by a junior it was the senior being thrown into something/place dangerous that the senior could have prevented (this is a lack of awareness). When a junior is injured by a senior it is the senior going at a level the junior could not reasonably handle (also a lack of awareness). both situations fall onto the senior as the responsible party.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 07-01-2010, 10:17 AM   #44
Randathamane
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Re: What are uke's rights?

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Daniel Lloyd wrote: View Post
What are uke's rights?

Just a question I have had recently due to a rather...."vigorous" student of Aikido.

I almost received a elbow injury from said nage, and I think it's from my lower level ukemi, so seeing as how I need more practice how can I protect myself from being injured?

How does one respectfully and politely decline to being Uke for practice?

Should I sacrifice my safety for traditional courtesy?
Uke has the right to walk off the mat without injury after practice. Tori/ Nage should adapt their technique to suit the level of uke. Failure to do this shows not only a lack of respect for uke, but lack of understanding of the dangers of technique and lack of control.

One does not need to respectfully ask tori/Nage to slow down, you have the right to demand it. If this is not respected, i would instantly leave. No bowing, just walk off and get changed. Show respect to get respect. No show, no give. Simple.

Never sacrifice your safety for traditional courtesy. You can always apologize for apparent rudeness and justify yourself with "you are intentionally hurting me". Tthere is no defence to this statement.
If your arm is broken however, what happens then? I've had jobs in the past where an injury like that means i can't go to work.
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Old 07-01-2010, 02:29 PM   #45
sakumeikan
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Re: What are uke's rights?

Quote:
Daniel Lloyd wrote: View Post
What are uke's rights?

Just a question I have had recently due to a rather...."vigorous" student of Aikido.

I almost received a elbow injury from said nage, and I think it's from my lower level ukemi, so seeing as how I need more practice how can I protect myself from being injured?

How does one respectfully and politely decline to being Uke for practice?

Should I sacrifice my safety for traditional courtesy?
If you feel that 1,Your ukemi is inadequate then brush up on Ukemi.
2.If you think it was accidental make allowances for the odd mistake.
3. If you think you are being deliberately abused , warn the guy and if he /she does not alter his /her methods , simply put ,
chin him.
I have personally had the same scenario years ago with a young Japanese guy who could dish it out but was not too happy when I replied in kind.We nearly came to blows on the tatami.Only the intervention of the class leader stopped a violent incident.
No body has a right to maim you intentionally.Accidents can happen , deliberate maiming is something else.
Cheers, Joe.
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