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Old 06-24-2010, 10:29 AM   #101
gregstec
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Re: Ki Aikido - quote from Gleason Sensei

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Bill tells me that this traininng has all but absorbed him. Yet he wonders who among those he is involved with will ever really pursue it and get anywhere with it. Was it ever any different?
Dan
Since the topic has Bill's name in it, I guess it is OK to talk about him At a recent training session on IP/IS that both Bill and I were at, I asked him if he was still going to do the annual Aikido seminar he generally does in my area in the Fall - he said yes, but more and more, his seminars are focusing on internal basics and not Aikido techniques. This shift of focus was very evident from his last seminar I attended that felt more like a Dan seminar than anything else - of course I felt somewhat at home, but there were many aikidoka there that were simply amazed at Bill's power.

Greg

Last edited by gregstec : 06-24-2010 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:39 AM   #102
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Re: Ki Aikido - quote from Gleason Sensei

and I wonder about this too. Say with ukemi. Are you 'dialing it back' or are you 'taking a dive' and bailing on your own structure? could it be that this is a bad response to be training so much? or can it be good: can you work on kokyu in your body while doing ukemi? is it a worthwhile way to train? Is this a proper understanding of waza practice (50/50 uke/nage)? is this the wrong perspective on 'dialing it back'? does it lead to gain in all parties so progress can be made like is hoped? i guess so. why not? what do you guys think? thanks,Josh
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:42 AM   #103
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Re: Ki Aikido - quote from Gleason Sensei

Greg, Since you mentioned the thread-names'-sake himself; something I was wondering about the Gentleman.; since he is pursuing this Aiki so focused....I was wondering if he would change any of his point of view of any his books? (Spiritual Foundations, or Words of Power), or if those works stand on their own, unaffected by any progress/changes/power increases. Just sharing/thinking out loud..
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Old 06-24-2010, 11:07 AM   #104
Jeremy Hulley
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Re: Ki Aikido - quote from Gleason Sensei

Not Chris..

The situation can be difficult. In my own case if I'm working with a relatively new person or some one who underrstands to a degree they hopefully I can create an itneraction where they and I learn something.

The catch that I've found is with those folks in between. People who may get the idea but are conditioned physically enough to get it.

Often when those folks try to "do" technique to me it just grounds out. At least half the time I.m not doing anything to ground ti out that's just how it moves.

Jeremy Hulley
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
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Old 06-24-2010, 11:11 AM   #105
gregstec
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Re: Ki Aikido - quote from Gleason Sensei

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Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Greg, Since you mentioned the thread-names'-sake himself; something I was wondering about the Gentleman.; since he is pursuing this Aiki so focused....I was wondering if he would change any of his point of view of any his books? (Spiritual Foundations, or Words of Power), or if those works stand on their own, unaffected by any progress/changes/power increases. Just sharing/thinking out loud..
I am certainly not qualified nor in any position to provide any definitive input on that. However, IMO, I think those books can stand on their own. Again, IMO, I see the new approach to aiki as not being a belief thing but more of a process thing.

Greg
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Old 06-24-2010, 11:21 AM   #106
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Re: Ki Aikido - quote from Gleason Sensei

Hello Jason
I never said I couldn't dial it back did I? In one place I said it was difficult, in another I said it was boring to do so, in another I said (as Chris notes) that it is difficult because it is just ...you being alive.
As far as dialing back; I did it last night while teaching in an aikido dojo, I even took ukemi of a sort; I didn't fall over and there was just no way they could ever actually throw me.

The other aspects that Chris is talking about are innate, you don't really think of how you feel till someone tells you that you feel like a tank. The way I "turn that off" is to flex and stiffen certain parts of my body, so I feel lighter.
Example:
I do weapons. In one practice a fellow told me I was using too much muscle and cutting through him. You can imagine the look on my face. I simply said "No I'm not." he argued and decided to prove a point. He said "Cut" (in a prescribed fixed pattern at a point in kata, so your sword stops in the air) and when our swords met he pulled his sword away expecting me to pitch forward or my sword to go forward as he moved his resisting force out of the way. When he did that my sword just stayed in space. He asked to do it again, same thing. Frustrated he said "I don't know what your doing, but it's too strong, too much muscle." Since he didn't let it go...and kept with the insults, I didn't let it go.

Now I took over and said lets do it again. Now when he pulled away and I just stood there, I said "Okay, now slowly walk back in with your bokken connecting. When he did, his bokken and his body started to collapse under the weight emanating from me, when he backed off...I stood there...when he came back in slowly...collapse under the weight. Confused he just stared at it. Giving a little sarcasm back for the insult I said "It's called moving from da center. You know, Like dem der martial art guys are supposed to be doing!"

Now I can tell you, try as I might, when going full speed in kata with a myriad of weapons it is extremely difficult to dial it back to fit-in. And in truth the only way I can get that "light feel" the fellow was for, is too actually use...too much muscle!
Why would I want to do that to myself and screw up the body I am jealously trying to build?

As I also said, this training is the fast ticket to senior level. I make no bones about it. I honestly do not think there is an Aikido shihan alive who can handle someone with a well developed compliment of these skills learned and burned in freestyle fighting. Aikido and Daito ryu (really all of the Japanese arts) have not allowed themselves to grow into an educated use of these skills because of their shite/uchi model. They are stuck in a loop that hinders further growth. Not only in an external fashion, but in an internal one as well. They will only get just so far with IP/aiki within the give and receive model. It hampers growth.
Once you get past that, from years of changing the changes, or countering the counters, your body softens, is far more educated in a trip response to make fluid continuos changes just from being you and moving naturally...and kata training then feels like kindergarten.

Ip/ aiki is the birth place of martial arts, it's not a way to do them as another guy in the dojo. This leads to the other point you addressed in your questioning of using these skills in someone else's dojo. If you stick out as the obvious one with the deeper level of skills, it may not play well with a lot of teachers.

To answer your excellent question about the teachers I teach and how it might cause problems for them.
I have done a series of national seminars with teachers- I just did one a few weeks ago with Shihan and senior teachers from all over. No one knows who or where and no one ever will. My opening comment to the group was "I don't want to read about this on the internet. Take a long look at me, because if I hear about someone putting this on the net, it will be the last time you see my face-you're out." I could be a very different guy and this could be a very different effort, Jason. I think this approach is best for now. on the one hand, it is an effort of public exposure, drawing attention to the topic, but on the other hand, a private one in expanding, forwarding, and in a VERY serious and meaningful way, supporting, and protecting, the teachers learning it till they are ready to make the choice to go public.
I am sensitive to the needs and also the pottential repercussions of stepping outside. One fellow just returned from his own training camp and told his teacher (real heavy weight) what he was doing. That he was trying to bring aiki back into Aikido, and saw the look in his teachers eye. Guess what? It was well received. The teacher said "Very good!"
So all is not as bad or potentially damaging as it seems. I continue to have hope that more and more are going to get it and spread it.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 06-24-2010, 11:36 AM   #107
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Re: Ki Aikido - quote from Gleason Sensei

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Since the topic has Bill's name in it, I guess it is OK to talk about him At a recent training session on IP/IS that both Bill and I were at, I asked him if he was still going to do the annual Aikido seminar he generally does in my area in the Fall - he said yes, but more and more, his seminars are focusing on internal basics and not Aikido techniques. This shift of focus was very evident from his last seminar I attended that felt more like a Dan seminar than anything else - of course I felt somewhat at home, but there were many aikidoka there that were simply amazed at Bill's power.

Greg
Bill is one of those guys that is quite open about his training- and say what you will, at least he is attempting to share in a way that might help improve the statis quo. He is quite open in saying damn the consequences. His opinions on the subject of how and where aiki...do fits in to the practice of Aikido™ are his own, his to outline-not mine.

I will be doing an aiki seminar at Bills dojo (probably this fall) for students in Aikido. It will be one of the few-maybe the only-"publicly advertized events" I am going to do this year.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 06-24-2010, 11:53 AM   #108
Dennis Hooker
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Red face Re: Ki Aikido - quote from Gleason Sensei

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I will be doing an aiki seminar at Bills dojo (probably this fall) for students in Aikido. It will be one of the few-maybe the only-"publicly advertized events" I am going to do this year.
Cheers
Dan
More power to ya big guy. This fall I will be more and more matching my Aiki skills against very large fish and very small tackle. Extend Dennis extend!!! Snap there goes another rod and more of my ego.

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
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Old 06-24-2010, 11:56 AM   #109
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Re: Ki Aikido - quote from Gleason Sensei

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Dennis Hooker wrote: View Post
More power to ya big guy. This fall I will be more and more matching my Aiki skills against very large fish and very small tackle. Extend Dennis extend!!! Snap there goes another rod and more of my ego.
I just got hooked (pun intended) on ocean fishing this year. I LOVE it! I am hoping to find a way to fit it in to my schedule.
Dan
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Old 06-24-2010, 11:59 AM   #110
ChrisMoses
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Re: Ki Aikido - quote from Gleason Sensei

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
no, I'm not thinking of it as techniques at all and it's not about "turning it off".

When you're doing pushout with someone who doesn't have your skill, do you just shut them down (which you could do and no amount of them standing there trying is going to change that) or do you dial it back a little so that they can feel what htey need to feel in order to progress and work through the exercise and you in turn, still feel something? I'm going to assume it's the latter of the two. It's no different in what I'm describing. The techniques of aikido become nothing more than paired exercises with each party building their body during their respective roles in the techniques.
Very fair question!

Part of what we get into here is training paradigms. When I'm working on pushout with someone who is new, I go back and forth between offering muscular resistance (so they have something they can push against/into) and offering frame resistance so their eyes can bug out and they go, "What the.." Pushout is a very limited environment however and it assumes a certain training paradigm.

In a regular Aikido class, I just tank. I go with whatever the instructor showed, and I go wherever my partner points me, and I make a big splat. I don't do many Aikido classes, it sucks for me, I don't get anything out of them and all my partner gets is reinforcement of bad habits. What good does that do anyone? It's emotionally draining, and very boring. It's also not aiki, nothing to do with aiki. It might be aiKi (as I've laid it out based on the modern interpretation based on Kisshomaru Ueshiba's "The Spirit of Aikido") but I have absolutely no interest in that.

Aiki, is REALLY hard! I don't think you can even do aiki (as I use the term) without the old 'baseline skillset'. So what to do with new people? That's kind of what we're working on now and we're kind of blessed in that we (meaning Icho-ryu/TNBBC) don't call our selves Aikido, but prefer aikibudo (or just jujutsu). Anyone watching class can say, "That's not Aikido!" and we would say, "We told you that." So beginners work on tanren, ukemi and judo throws. Those three areas work to reinforce each other and build someone who is ready to start learning aiki. I should point out that I don't consider myself to be a master of any of this stuff, most of what I do falls far short of what I would consider true aiki but I also really feel that I'm sneaking up on it. I'm kind of like lone blind man walking around feeling an elephant and describing what the elephant really is. The longer I circle, and the more I touch, the better my mental image is going to be.

Chris Moses
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Old 06-24-2010, 12:33 PM   #111
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Re: Ki Aikido - quote from Gleason Sensei

Clarification
I didn't mean that individual people couldn't talk about their training -like Greg just did- but rather they not mention where or who else was there training. That way I leave it up to teachers to do what they will as individuals.
Dan
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Old 06-24-2010, 12:45 PM   #112
ChrisMoses
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Re: Ki Aikido - quote from Gleason Sensei

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Clarification
I didn't mean that individual people couldn't talk about their training -like Greg just did- but rather they not mention where or who else was there training. That way I leave it up to teachers to do what they will as individuals.
Dan
"The first rule of fight club..."

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
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Old 06-24-2010, 01:29 PM   #113
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Re: Ki Aikido - quote from Gleason Sensei

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hello Jason
I never said I couldn't dial it back did I? In one place I said it was difficult, in another I said it was boring to do so, in another I said (as Chris notes) that it is difficult because it is just ...you being alive.
As far as dialing back; I did it last night while teaching in an aikido dojo, I even took ukemi of a sort; I didn't fall over and there was just no way they could ever actually throw me.

The other aspects that Chris is talking about are innate, you don't really think of how you feel till someone tells you that you feel like a tank. The way I "turn that off" is to flex and stiffen certain parts of my body, so I feel lighter.
No you definitely never said that and I would have been foolish to think you could not. I understand what both you and Chris are talking about in regards to it just being part of you. I'm not there yet, but I can see the progression. The connections come a lot faster than they did just a few months ago. Some of the guys here don't seem to have to think about it or feel for it at all, it's just there. I look forward to that too. I'm just thinking out loud in regards to aikido and reintegrating this stuff back into it. If one wanted to do that and keep things familiar, I think the methodology that Ueshiba was shooting for would work, accepting that all the needed factors were in place and that methodology requires one to dial it back to the level of the people you're working with. With more skilled people there are, as you know, a multitude of directions one could go from there.

Quote:
Now I can tell you, try as I might, when going full speed in kata with a myriad of weapons it is extremely difficult to dial it back to fit-in. And in truth the only way I can get that "light feel" the fellow was for, is too actually use...too much muscle!
Why would I want to do that to myself and screw up the body I am jealously trying to build?
I can understand this, but again I was just being aikido-y in my reply, fitting it into that paradigm which requires that give and take. If every aikido dojo only had a certain type of person in it, this probably wouldn't be needed, but you gotta go with what you've got so I'm just thinking along those lines. I hope my questions don't come off sounding like statements more than just questions. I dont know enough for that. I'm just not afraid to ask questions and throw ideas out there. I enjoy the discusion.

Quote:
To answer your excellent question about the teachers I teach and how it might cause problems for them.
I have done a series of national seminars with teachers- I just did one a few weeks ago with Shihan and senior teachers from all over. No one knows who or where and no one ever will. My opening comment to the group was "I don't want to read about this on the internet. Take a long look at me, because if I hear about someone putting this on the net, it will be the last time you see my face-you're out." I could be a very different guy and this could be a very different effort, Jason. I think this approach is best for now. on the one hand, it is an effort of public exposure, drawing attention to the topic, but on the other hand, a private one in expanding, forwarding, and in a VERY serious and meaningful way, supporting, and protecting, the teachers learning it till they are ready to make the choice to go public.
I am sensitive to the needs and also the pottential repercussions of stepping outside. One fellow just returned from his own training camp and told his teacher (real heavy weight) what he was doing. That he was trying to bring aiki back into Aikido, and saw the look in his teachers eye. Guess what? It was well received. The teacher said "Very good!"
So all is not as bad or potentially damaging as it seems. I continue to have hope that more and more are going to get it and spread it.
I never quite thought of it from that angle before Dan, but it makes perfect sense. I don't fault you or anyone for wanting to protect what you worked hard to get and continue to work had to pass on and that definitely sounds like a safer way to go about it.

It's good to hear that the powers that be are more open minded than I would have given them credit for being. I'm going to be in the same situation as the fellow you mentioned above next week and I expect a similar reaction. It all fits too well, too logically, for it to be stubbornly ignored, but the bigger something gets, the slower it moves and the more resistant it is to change. I have similar hopes as well.

If not, maybe Anderson Silva will kotegaeshi Sonnen and save us the effort!
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Old 06-24-2010, 01:49 PM   #114
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Re: Ki Aikido - quote from Gleason Sensei

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Very fair question!

Part of what we get into here is training paradigms. When I'm working on pushout with someone who is new, I go back and forth between offering muscular resistance (so they have something they can push against/into) and offering frame resistance so their eyes can bug out and they go, "What the.." Pushout is a very limited environment however and it assumes a certain training paradigm.

In a regular Aikido class, I just tank. I go with whatever the instructor showed, and I go wherever my partner points me, and I make a big splat. I don't do many Aikido classes, it sucks for me, I don't get anything out of them and all my partner gets is reinforcement of bad habits. What good does that do anyone? It's emotionally draining, and very boring. It's also not aiki, nothing to do with aiki. It might be aiKi (as I've laid it out based on the modern interpretation based on Kisshomaru Ueshiba's "The Spirit of Aikido") but I have absolutely no interest in that.

Aiki, is REALLY hard! I don't think you can even do aiki (as I use the term) without the old 'baseline skillset'. So what to do with new people? That's kind of what we're working on now and we're kind of blessed in that we (meaning Icho-ryu/TNBBC) don't call our selves Aikido, but prefer aikibudo (or just jujutsu). Anyone watching class can say, "That's not Aikido!" and we would say, "We told you that." So beginners work on tanren, ukemi and judo throws. Those three areas work to reinforce each other and build someone who is ready to start learning aiki. I should point out that I don't consider myself to be a master of any of this stuff, most of what I do falls far short of what I would consider true aiki but I also really feel that I'm sneaking up on it. I'm kind of like lone blind man walking around feeling an elephant and describing what the elephant really is. The longer I circle, and the more I touch, the better my mental image is going to be.
re: pushout: That's how it has been for me, I guess I just never saw it as tensing up as being the method of dialing it back, because I'm the guy going "what the !!?!?", but it makes sense.

As for the aikido, maybe it's different for me becuase there are so many similarities between what I've done there and things I'm learning on the outside. Now don't take that to mean "we were already doing this", but there's just so much conceptual overlap that often times it's not hard to take what little I know and make a suggestion here or there and feel it make a difference in what someone is doing. What will that amount to in the long run? I don't know, but I'm not really worried about it. I don't expect everyone to care or be interested on the same level that I am. The more casual people will benefit from that and the more serious people become the ones that help take it to the next level. I enjoy both sides of it.
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Old 06-24-2010, 02:44 PM   #115
DH
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Re: Ki Aikido - quote from Gleason Sensei

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
No you definitely never said that and I would have been foolish to think you could not. I understand what both you and Chris are talking about in regards to it just being part of you. I'm not there yet, but I can see the progression. The connections come a lot faster than they did just a few months ago. Some of the guys here don't seem to have to think about it or feel for it at all, it's just there. I look forward to that too.
Depending on what you are training (no it's -not- all the same) Moving and fighting with IP/aiki can be more...or less...automatic in nature. There are methods that completely change the way the outside moves from within in certain patterns of movement. These patterns become natural. It is this combination of the inside moving the outside that the masters talked about. This is the heart of what I refer to about freestyle effecting kata. not only is the force-of say a grab- nuetralized complelety, certain secondary actions from your natural movemnt can, make the uke respond, sometimes in dramatac ways. On another level there is a pronounced tendency to stick and control at any point of contact. Were your body to move in certain ways virtually all of these points of contact can act as capture and motivational points on their centers and can lead to any manner of throws, and or entry points to do some seriusly damaging and repetative hits, where the body still maintains contact to once again control and then again to set up a series of hits. Other methods of movement really cannot accomplish that they deal with power differently.

This ties in wiith your comments here:
Quote:
I'm just thinking out loud in regards to aikido and reintegrating this stuff back into it. If one wanted to do that and keep things familiar, I think the methodology that Ueshiba was shooting for would work, accepting that all the needed factors were in place and that methodology requires one to dial it back to the level of the people you're working with. With more skilled people there are, as you know, a multitude of directions one could go from there.
Not all of the methods for IP/aiki will tie in to Japanese arts and weapons in the same way. Some of the teachers out there training with different sources are forming their own opinions based on observation, explanation and feel.

Quote:
I hope my questions don't come off sounding like statements more than just questions. I dont know enough for that. I'm just not afraid to ask questions and throw ideas out there. I enjoy the discusion.
Hmm....note my compliments on them and you see how I feel.

Dan
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Old 06-24-2010, 03:00 PM   #116
DH
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Re: Ki Aikido - quote from Gleason Sensei

Quote:
Jason writes:
I never quite thought of it from that angle before Dan, but it makes perfect sense. I don't fault you or anyone for wanting to protect what you worked hard to get and continue to work had to pass on and that definitely sounds like a safer way to go about it.
Well, I am trying to be a gentleman about it.
Some of these guys have paid their dues and then some.
I am trying to offer them an environment where they can play. As one guy says "It's like Graduate school for aikido teachers".,.another says "I feel like I don't have to represent and I can just play with the boys again." Some people like Ikeda and can put on a white belt and go play with systema or Ushiro, others don't have that freedom. So I am trying to make a place to let their hair down and learn and play. There are no techniques to learn and everyone enters in to the work as equals-hell I don't even allow budo T-shirts.

Quote:
It's good to hear that the powers that be are more open minded than I would have given them credit for being. I'm going to be in the same situation as the fellow you mentioned above next week and I expect a similar reaction. It all fits too well, too logically, for it to be stubbornly ignored, but the bigger something gets, the slower it moves and the more resistant it is to change. I have similar hopes as well.
As I said I have hope, but I am not niave about some of the ego driven agendas that also exist.

Quote:
If not, maybe Anderson Silva will kotegaeshi Sonnen and save us the effort!
I have nothing positive to say about that. As soon as I saw segal doing a pressure point cross-face as some sort of MMA "finishing move" I threw up, the rest of it is about at the same level. . .
Like Bruce Lee and Ali....it will speak for itself. .
Dan
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Old 06-24-2010, 03:21 PM   #117
Lee Salzman
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Re: Ki Aikido - quote from Gleason Sensei

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Depending on what you are training (no it's -not- all the same) Moving and fighting with IP/aiki can be more...or less...automatic in nature. There are methods that completely change the way the outside moves from within in certain patterns of movement. These patterns become natural. It is this combination of the inside moving the outside that the masters talked about. This is the heart of what I refer to about freestyle effecting kata. not only is the force-of say a grab- nuetralized complelety, certain secondary actions from your natural movemnt can, make the uke respond, sometimes in dramatac ways. On another level there is a pronounced tendency to stick and control at any point of contact. Were your body to move in certain ways virtually all of these points of contact can act as capture and motivational points on their centers and can lead to any manner of throws, and or entry points to do some seriusly damaging and repetative hits, where the body still maintains contact to once again control and then again to set up a series of hits. Other methods of movement really cannot accomplish that they deal with power differently.

This ties in wiith your comments here:

Not all of the methods for IP/aiki will tie in to Japanese arts and weapons in the same way. Some of the teachers out there training with different sources are forming their own opinions based on observation, explanation and feel.

Hmm....note my compliments on them and you see how I feel.

Dan
Could you cite some example(s) of other methods of IP/aiki that you feel do not accomplish these ends, and what exactly the main failing point is with them that makes it so? I'm not asking for an essay, but I'm just curious as to what you see as the main stumbling blocks there that would lead people astray.
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Old 06-24-2010, 03:27 PM   #118
DH
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Re: Ki Aikido - quote from Gleason Sensei

Lee
How is it going?
No, I don't want to get into that firestorm. I don't see them as "wrong" anyway just not as efficient for my goals in fluid freestyle. They are too limited in what they can do, most probably for the same reasons I site in aikido and Daito ryu as methods. They just never went all the way with it or as far as they could have. So they have some rather pronounced failings here and there, they telegraph in their own way and otherwise lack things that more experienced fighters would pick up on an exploit.
I am just one voice, in the greater sceme of things, all but meaningless really; people will have to make their own assessments.
Hope to see ya again
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-24-2010 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 06-24-2010, 04:03 PM   #119
Lee Salzman
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Re: Ki Aikido - quote from Gleason Sensei

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Lee
How is it going?
Had a training "accident" that came close to destroying my elbow almost a year ago, and even now I'm not sure if there is some screwy nerve impingement or ligament damage that I've got remaining. I got the opportunity to learn firsthand that a person does not need aiki, or any great level of skill in BJJ for that matter, to badly injure someone with an armbar. I never knew snapping muscles sounded like that. That seems to have effected a bit of change in my perspective on what I'm trying to get out of training.

Quote:
No, I don't want to get into that firestorm. I don't see them as "wrong" anyway just not as efficient for my goals in fluid freestyle. They are too limited in what they can do, most probably for the same reasons I site in aikido and Daito ryu as methods. They just never went all the way with it or as far as they could have. So they have some rather pronounced failings here and there, they telegraph in their own way and otherwise lack things that more experienced fighters would pick up on an exploit.
I am just one voice, in the greater sceme of things, all but meaningless really; people will have to make their own assessments.
Hope to see ya again
Dan
I don't want to start that firestorm either, by no means. No need to kill this thread so soon. I was just hoping for elucidation on differences that you might have observed on your path.

So if I am interpreting you right, you are saying they are generally too limited in what contexts they try to apply their skills, and not necessarily in the development of body skills themselves?

Last edited by Lee Salzman : 06-24-2010 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 06-28-2010, 12:05 PM   #120
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Re: Ki Aikido - quote from Gleason Sensei

Although I am digressing away from the flow of the thread, I cannot help but read underneath the posts a current that we need our movers and shakers to get their heads together and figure out how better to learn and train.

I have attended too many seminars where failed technique is met with, "you're doing it wrong," or "you're energy is bad," or "stop fighting me..." I am [rarely] pleasantly surpised with "WTF? how did you do that?" or "I need to see how I cannot accomodate that variation..." Similar to an earlier post, I think there is something to be said for the spirit of aikido when failure is met with "it's you, not me."

Where is our fighting spirit that drives us to spar with the MMA fighter? or spar with the karate person? or learn how to defend against other arts? Where is our ego when we choose to omit training that exceeds our skills for the vanity of not being able to teach it?
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Old 06-28-2010, 12:45 PM   #121
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Re: Ki Aikido - quote from Gleason Sensei

Well, there needs to be a complicity in the sense that all are working towards mutual improvement AND a genuine method for testibility that has everything to do with "Does it work??" from as objective a measure as possible, rather than "Am I letting this work right now?".

I think the disconnect in many modern forms of practice is that these lines blur into one sort of thing that doesn't really accomplish the goals of either of the above two facets of the overall training paradigm. So then "work for harmony" becomes, "do what the senior/sensei says and don't question it or you're in trouble!".

Add the idea of training Ki/Kokyu from an Internal Strength perspective - and it's an additional rub because there are plenty that refuse to accept that their 30+ years time in doesn't automatically translate into this skillset that uses the same or similar terminology at points. Factor in that people feel plenty comfortable speaking to how aikido would "work" in an MMA perspective without having actually spent any time credibly trying it out -- why would you expect this thing to be any different, especially when it (IT/IS) by all rights should be the foundation of AIKI-do practice.

The smart ones are working like hell to rewire, retrain and catch up if they genuinely want the skills (in MMA, IS, Shodo, or whatever). The less than benevolent ones are keeping their methods and lineage secret so they can be THE SENSEI, while the ones that really sacrifice everything for their arts and their students are dragging everyone along on their journey, so that their students have the possibility to stand on their shoulders and someday reach higher up the mountain.

And everything in-between. As keeps getting mentioned, these sure are interesting times. And I'm just limited to hearing the scuttlebutt here and their about what different mainstream peeps are up to. I'm sure it's much more interesting closer to the centers.

Jon, you asked where's the ego? I think ego (and at times various levels of access to knowledge, willful/unwillful ignorance AND we can't forget the need to pay the rent) has it's share of blame for watering down of martial practices all over. I can see where it gets to a point where the people that really want to bang and train recuse themselves from trying to wade through the differences of budo as genuine training for life versus a collection of role-players chasing delusions of relevance.

I've heard different conceptions mentioning that the growth of MMA owes its popularity to people wanting to do what they see on TV. I know just as many ex-athletes, law enforcement and military types, when they finally want to walk into a dojo, have someone speaking to them on conditioning, warrior mindset and combative intent -- that clearly has no credibility on any of these things. So, it's a mixed bag all over, no doubt.

An honestly, I don't think this is much of a digression away from the flow or original topic of the thread.

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Although I am digressing away from the flow of the thread, I cannot help but read underneath the posts a current that we need our movers and shakers to get their heads together and figure out how better to learn and train.

I have attended too many seminars where failed technique is met with, "you're doing it wrong," or "you're energy is bad," or "stop fighting me..." I am [rarely] pleasantly surpised with "WTF? how did you do that?" or "I need to see how I cannot accomodate that variation..." Similar to an earlier post, I think there is something to be said for the spirit of aikido when failure is met with "it's you, not me."

Where is our fighting spirit that drives us to spar with the MMA fighter? or spar with the karate person? or learn how to defend against other arts? Where is our ego when we choose to omit training that exceeds our skills for the vanity of not being able to teach it?
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Old 06-30-2010, 07:08 AM   #122
Dennis Hooker
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Re: Ki Aikido - quote from Gleason Sensei

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well, I am trying to be a gentleman about it.
Some of these guys have paid their dues and then some.
I am trying to offer them an environment where they can play. As one guy says "It's like Graduate school for aikido teachers".,.another says "I feel like I don't have to represent and I can just play with the boys again." Some people like Ikeda and can put on a white belt and go play with systema or Ushiro, others don't have that freedom. So I am trying to make a place to let their hair down and learn and play. There are no techniques to learn and everyone enters in to the work as equals-hell I don't even allow budo T-shirts.
As I said I have hope, but I am not niave about some of the ego driven agendas that also exist.

I have nothing positive to say about that. As soon as I saw segal doing a pressure point cross-face as some sort of MMA "finishing move" I threw up, the rest of it is about at the same level. . .
Like Bruce Lee and Ali....it will speak for itself. .
Dan
Dan, I agree. Anyone that thinks there is nothing to learn from others is no one I want to be around. At 65 and all broken up and 45 years of Aikido I look forward to the day we can be on the mat together I am sure the work you have done will help me and maybe my experiences will offer something back. We should never stop learning or reaching out. I have known Bill for a long time and his experiences discovering Aikido, and other endeavors, have been wholehearted and diligent to say the least. I have a few well trained and high ranking karate and judo guys at the dojo and they keep me honest because they will not bustardise (sp?) their training just to make me look good. I wish I could train like the old days but the 5th lumbar vertebra is detached on both sides and the 4 & 5th are broken on both sides plus all the other crap. I'm looking for ways to do old things in new ways now days. I look to guys like Bill you and others who have spent a good deal of their training on ceratin aspects of the arts

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

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