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Old 06-17-2010, 08:26 PM   #26
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Why The Seattle Cop Needed Aikido

IMO, he acted within the parameters of the threat and the parameters of his training for the looks at how he handled her. He appear to not have much skill in the way of control and apprehension. Given more training, maybe he would have reacted differently. I don't know, I am not him.

Excessive, not in the least IMO.

Bottom line, you come at an officer the way she did, she is luck that is all she got.

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Old 06-17-2010, 08:53 PM   #27
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Re: Why The Seattle Cop Needed Aikido

Dave -

I work with SPD, so I've had a few phone conversations. None of those conversations were with officials, and none of them reflect any more than my understanding of the situation.
*Essentially, you have a busy intersection, near a school. An overpass has been built, specifically due to a dangerous situation where kids cross the street. Parents don't want their kids hit.
So problem #1: Police let jaywalking go - in their sight - and a kid is hit. Furious complaints, which will include allowing minority kids to be hit, because they are not "worth" protection.

*Some kids do NOT merely jaywalk. I've seen many times where a group of kids saunter across the street, and stop in traffic, simply stand there, having a conversation. If you honk or try to edge past, the kids sometimes get belligerent. If one is elderly or otherwise timid, a group of belligerent kids (do you think those two girls would not be of that ilk?) can make driving in the area intimidating.
Problem #2 - The police do not enforce jaywalking - driving citizens become enraged - feeling helpless, racism increases ("all black kids are like that!") - helpless people become hateful. Often the police have the "job" of protecting us from feeling helpless.

*So the police officer stopped one young man - then four young girls marched out in the street. He stopped them and merely tried to cite them. One girl cursed him and began to walk away. So what should the officer do? Let her go? In front of a group of people, the message now is: if you don't like what the officer lawfully does, defy him. If you're leaning on his car and he tells you to move, tell him to go away. If you are stopped for a traffic ticket and think it's unjustified, drive away.
Problem #3 - a defiant young lady ramps up her own aggression, entitled and seeing herself as invulnerable. If the officer withdraws "tactically," whenever a group of people is mildly oppositional, our society is finished, because this will lead to an extension of the militarization of police - only travel in large groups, every issue is suppression. Furthermore, if he withdraws, how do they find her? Now we have an "investigation" to find the jaywalker.

My personal opinion, fwiw, is that I think the officer was too physically "careful." He was actually trying, in my opinion, to do something like aikido. On a stiffer person, it might have worked. (Anyone notice the attempt at the ude-garami?). The first young lady should have been slammed onto the hood of the car and cuffed.

REspectfully,
Ellis Amdur

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Old 06-17-2010, 08:53 PM   #28
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Re: Why The Seattle Cop Needed Aikido

I don't know how the law is interpreted in that locale, but the woman in pink clearly put her hands on the officer and shoved him, prior to the punch. Around here, that is considered assaulting an officer, and is often going to result in much worse than a poke in the chops... I think she got off easy, frankly, particularly if the cop had been in fear of his own safety in this highly charged episode, alone and not on his own turf.
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:12 PM   #29
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Re: Why The Seattle Cop Needed Aikido

It was bad enough with the Lady In Pink pushed at the officer. It went seriously downhill when he tried to control her on the opposite side of the patrol care and the Lady In Black started grabbing him from behind. He was in grave danger at that point and had to turn to the Lady in Black to control her. The camera man who filmed this encroached far more than should have been allowed as well.

I think the years of SPD coming under fire for excessive force have come home to roost and made the officers wary of using force, even when necessary and appropriate. I remember the days when they were expected to sit around the campfire and sing "Kumbayah" with violent suspects. Those pesky pendulums (pendula?) take forever to find a happy medium in their arc.

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Old 06-17-2010, 11:31 PM   #30
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Re: Why The Seattle Cop Needed Aikido

Indeed, this is an incident worthy of discussion. I think this is good for officers and the public to participate in. That's why I liked Phil's post. I know what I would have done, or at least like to believe I would have been capable of doing. I don't want to second guess the officer, especially since I don't have any of the facts of the case outside of the Internet - not a good source. But I can still appreciate Phil's post. That is what I want to make space for.

For what it's worth, and if it adds to the discussion good, here is what I would have done for a situation like the one we are thinking we know here (again - remember - things could be totally different than we are discussing):

You decide to cite the woman for jaywalking. In that crowd, I would have requested a back for the cite. Let's say there is not one available - it happens. Ok, you go it alone - you feel it's an important cite in need of attention - nothing wrong with that. So, you are citing the woman and you turn on the verbal judo as best you can - selling the cite - being polite, courteous, and professional - explaining her options for not signing the cite. Okay - it doesn't work. She goes 148 on you - resists arrest. She goes from infraction to misdemeanor - here where I live you go to jail for that (no cite and release). In that crowd, I would again request for a back to make the arrest - letting folks know I got a 148. Here, folks break and back for that. Even if it has to come from another agency - CHP, SBPD, State Park, VSO, UCPD. But, let's say, everyone is busy, or let's say someone says, "Ten minutes out." Ten minutes is too long for verbal judo and too long for waiting. Like Ellis said, I agree, you make an arrest, quick and sure. No hesitation - more violence of action. Get her in the car and get gone. But let's say your back is three out. So, you start thinking - hmmmm, maybe I can wait. The job is grey - not black and white - so you go with wait. Okay, it happens - you wait for your back to put cuffs on. So you are trying to keep tabs on her, and in comes her friend while you have her in a control hold. Her friend grabs at you in an attempt to have her friend escape from your control hold. Here, one could be looking at lynching or attempted lynching now for the friend - a felony. I now have a new priority regarding who I arrest. I put it out on the radio and ask for my back to expedite. Here, that means folks are coming Code 3 - lights and sirens. Here, nobody, from no agency, is going to leave a LEO in that situation by him/herself - regardless of how many report calls there are. Maybe it's different in Seattle - so I could be talking out my ass here. I pray it's not different in Seattle.

Let me stop here: For me, what I'm trying to do with all of these things is give myself facts I can articulate in a report that explain my actions. If you do this, and you punch a lyncher in the face, you will have a much different incident than if you don't do this and you punch a woman in the face. At the same time, you are constantly trying to tap into your greatest resource when it comes to your safety in this type of crowd situation - fellow officers.

Maybe the officer did all this. I don't know. Does anyone else know?

For the sake of the discussion, I'll try and follow the events as they unfold and share them with folks here as I can. However, perhaps there is a larger more general topic underneath here that every Aikidoka can feel is directed at him/her or can be directed at him/her:

When it's time to act, it's time to act. When you act, be quick, dominating, and decisive. I think it is a fair critique that much of Aikido as it is practiced today is anything but quick, dominating, and decisive. In that sense, in answering Phil's questions, maybe Aikido would not have helped this officer after all. :-(

Thanks,
dmv

Last edited by senshincenter : 06-17-2010 at 11:35 PM.

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Old 06-17-2010, 11:44 PM   #31
Michael Hackett
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Re: Why The Seattle Cop Needed Aikido

David,

For those who aren't familiar with our unique California use of the word "lynching" we should explain that it means taking a prisoner from a law enforcement agent. Most people interpret it to mean vigilante justice with a hanging.

Michael
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Old 06-18-2010, 12:17 AM   #32
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Re: Why The Seattle Cop Needed Aikido

Yes - thanks Mike.

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Old 06-18-2010, 07:21 AM   #33
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Re: Why The Seattle Cop Needed Aikido

I looked at the video and I am thinking the officer was kind in his reaction to the situation. Rather than say "If the officer had been well trained in Aikido he could have handled the situation better." I will say "If the ladies in the video were studying Aikido perhaps it would have never escalated."

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Old 06-18-2010, 08:43 AM   #34
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Re: Why The Seattle Cop Needed Aikido

One thing that should also be pointed out about this situation is that for budgetary reasons, most police departments went from having two officers per patrol car to one officer. The presence of a second officer would have made a substantial difference in that situation.

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Old 06-18-2010, 09:21 AM   #35
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Re: Why The Seattle Cop Needed Aikido

Quote:
Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post
I looked at the video and I am thinking the officer was kind in his reaction to the situation. Rather than say "If the officer had been well trained in Aikido he could have handled the situation better." I will say "If the ladies in the video were studying Aikido perhaps it would have never escalated."
To address Lyle's comments: A profound thought. It is clearly something I over looked. We do put the greater onus on the police. When it should be equal in turn with the general public. I too believe if the women did learn Aikido the situation would have been different.
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Old 06-18-2010, 09:23 AM   #36
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Re: Why The Seattle Cop Needed Aikido

First off, thank you Dave for your comments- the insight and understanding of my reasons of this thread, and your well thought out contributions, such as your vid. It is my hope the comments composing the thread will be of value and a resource.

Last edited by Buck : 06-18-2010 at 09:26 AM.
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Old 06-18-2010, 09:57 AM   #37
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Re: Why The Seattle Cop Needed Aikido

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
One thing that should also be pointed out about this situation is that for budgetary reasons, most police departments went from having two officers per patrol car to one officer. The presence of a second officer would have made a substantial difference in that situation.

Marc Abrams
I was going to make that point myself. I think it would be better for everyone involved if all officers worked with a partner, it just changes the whole dynamic.

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Old 06-18-2010, 10:16 AM   #38
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Re: Why The Seattle Cop Needed Aikido

The issue of two-man cars is actually pretty complex and most agencies do not and have not ever run two-man cars. On the surface it would appear that doubling the manpower would make things safer, but that hasn't been borne out. In some jurisdictions it has been successful, while in others it has proven to be more dangerous.

What has been found through research and anecdotally is that in some cultures (and each city has a distinct culture) the two-man cars bite off more than they can chew, while the single officers tend to be more conscious of officer safety practices and/or wait for sufficient manpower to act. There is also a belief that in a two-person car, the officers are less observant of the world they're patrolling. I don't know of any valid research on this point and I think it a myth.

Most jurisdictions continue to operate single person patrol cars and many choose to deploy more cars and have automatic back-ups in their protocol. In this case a second officer would have been helpful indeed, regardless of how he or she arrived there.

I've worked both and I personally prefer a single car because then I was only concerned with my own safety and didn't have to be attentive to what my partner was doing or failing to do. I have to admit that it was wonderful music to hear the sirens coming from all directions when everything went south though.

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Old 06-18-2010, 10:29 AM   #39
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Re: Why The Seattle Cop Needed Aikido

Quote:
...for budgetary reasons, most police departments went from having two officers per patrol car to one officer. The presence of a second officer would have made a substantial difference in that situation.
Kindly, I don't know if that would have been the case? I am not a cop obviously, but, I have seen situations where it takes many cops to subdue a person fighting them like that woman did, she may have fought even harder filling more threatened and out numbered. Yes, maybe the other women may not have interfered, though I don't think so - pls see the thread in the Open Discussion Forum on this topic. Here again I am kindly pointing out the use of Aikido maybe a useful tool, on the officer's end.

But as Lyle points out, the dynamic of the situation would have been different if the women had learned Aikido.

FWIW. The quoted comment came up earlier in thread #10 by Brett Charvat. I agreed with him that more funds need to be allocated to the police dept to help cops handle the situation at the public's level of expectations and demands.

Now I see what Michael has added and I am thinking the women in pink may have attacked the other cop, if there was one. Or the crowd would have gotten more excited and acted, possibly. The situation with two cops may have become more complicated and dangerous.

Last edited by Buck : 06-18-2010 at 10:36 AM.
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Old 06-18-2010, 10:33 AM   #40
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Re: Why The Seattle Cop Needed Aikido

Looks like I am in a minority but from a non-USA and non-law enforcement viewpoint it looked like an inappropriate angry reaction by the officer at a time when the woman was moving away from him. It did not get him any closer to a successful outcome. A law enforcement officer punching someone who is not an immediate threat is indefensible. His training was inadequate. I suspect it will be an expensive punch for Seattle.

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Old 06-18-2010, 10:45 AM   #41
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Re: Why The Seattle Cop Needed Aikido

Respectfully, I certainly see why you would criticize his conduct as less-than-commendable, and think reasonable people may certainly disagree on that issue.

Legally, rightly or wrongly, I think it would be hard to win a civil rights claim here, and possibly difficult even to get a case to trial without dismissal or summary judgment. Equally, were I representing the woman who "attacked" him, I think it would be difficult to establish the officer was acting outside the scope of his authority so as to authorize self-defense or defense-of-another.

Then again, I tell folks if they like to gamble its better to go to a casino than to trial, because you can figure out your odds of losing at a casino with more certainty.

FWIW

Last edited by C. David Henderson : 06-18-2010 at 10:52 AM.

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Old 06-18-2010, 10:50 AM   #42
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Re: Why The Seattle Cop Needed Aikido

Thanks for that legal background, C. David. As well as a possible civil rights case I was also thinking of the indirect and incalculable costs of deteriorating community relations.

Last edited by niall : 06-18-2010 at 10:55 AM.

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Old 06-18-2010, 11:05 AM   #43
Dennis Hooker
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Re: Why The Seattle Cop Needed Aikido

I too think the police officer was within his rights seeing what we were allowed to see. I do not know how it all went down. Was he polite and she aggressive one, or was he over aggressive instigating a situation police are supposed to quell? This is one reason I hate vigilante video recording. It starts only after the real reason for situations has escalated.

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Old 06-18-2010, 10:32 PM   #44
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Interesting Development

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100619/...e_police_punch

The young lady apologized to the officer.

He still might catch hell for punching her, but having watched the video, I'd have to take his side.

As for other aspects, I see many points in the various interactions where he could easily have taken either person off balance and effected a hold but it looks like he's just been taught "jujutsu" type arresting techniques without any understanding of "taking balance". At one point, he tries yonkyo and she has such good balance he can't do it. Another time, he tries, as someone else pointed out, ude garami, but he can't get it. And I saw a beautiful opening for what we used to call kanuki hiki tate (chicken-head lock) but he didn't seem to be aware of it. Not to criticize the man, but he clearly wasn't trained at all in the power of yielding or leading. He lets her stand with her balance and tries to do all these locks on her while going against her pretty remarkable strength and flexibility.

To the "credit" of the young woman in black, it should be a good lesson for everyone to see how well she keeps her balance and how nearly impossible it is for the officer to control her. But it appears that if he'd had some training in taking balance, he could have had her in any number of locks in an instant and might have had her in the car before she could have resisted or anyone could have interfered. So, technically, this video, for me, underscores the importance of taking balance and using good technique, along with the relative unimportance of strength.

As Ellis pointed out, the older man in the black/white hat does appear to have a pistol down by his side, but on close inspection, it appears to me that what he's holding is actually a camera. But it could so easily have been a gun. And then look at all the people coming in very close and videoing the arrest in progress. Geez. I can tell you I'd never come up on an arresting officer like that. But look how many people did. And then think how many of them could have had a knife or gun on them. And the officer could easily be dead.

My father was a county deputy for about 23 years and when I was a little kid, I and my siblings were all painfully aware that every time he left the house could be the last time we'd ever see him. But as I grew up, I learned how to talk to officers and how to act around them and I have never gotten into serious trouble with any of them. I once had two officers search me and I just stood very softly and let them touch me any way they wanted and let them pat me down fully and let them know that I was not going to resist in any way. In a more serious situation, I was very angry, but I sat still and let them know I would not resist in any way. Worst I've ever gotten was a ticket (knock on my head [wood]).

Anyway, I have to appreciate the young lady for apologizing and I hope the officer gets off lightly but goes forward with maybe a more subtle appreciation for the people of that community. And I hope he gets some excellent training in aikido or aikijujutsu!

My prayer go out for him and all involved. It looks like they all got off better than what might have happened.

David

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Old 06-18-2010, 10:52 PM   #45
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Re: Why The Seattle Cop Needed Aikido

For me, I think the cop was restrained in handling her. He could of used allot more physical force, he could have easily out muscled her, You can see that though out the vid. He could have tripped her or tackled her, he could have head hunted her. Overall over-powering her with his strength. But he didn't. I viewed it as he was being careful not to injure with her, but struggled(as a result of lacking the knowledge and principles offered by Aikido). Let me point to the point where the camera guy told the cop that her blouse was coming off and he readjusted his grip to prevent the blouse from coming down off the girl in black. The cop seemed to try and get the right maneuver to get her hands in a cuffing position, primarily. I am not saying your wrong, you may have information I don't. I am just offering my observation of what I seen.
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Old 06-19-2010, 11:45 AM   #46
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Re: Why The Seattle Cop Needed Aikido

As this thread winds down I offer my concluding comments. Dave pointed in his observed the girl in black to have good balance while resisting arrest, hence the cop was unable to complete his attempt at yonkyo. Dave further points out, the importance of kazushi -taking the other person's balance away- important to successful Aikido waza. It is true, or at least that is what we are taught. You find the principle of kazushi to be a core element to technique in all Japanese martial arts, and Chinese martial arts. thus, showing the importance of that principle to technique.

Now, the young lady is emotionally agitated to say the least, and fighting matching the resistance provided by the cop. That is she is not fighting any harder than to prevent the cops attempts to restrain her. She is not punching, kicking etc. But the emotional content she is employing keeps the cops attempts to place her in a arresting position at bay. She maintains her balance.

The cop, also maintains his balance as he doesn't fall, or trip. He is struggling to control her body movements and position to be optimum for his advantage. He only gains control when the woman's cardio and muscle strength has failed, and she no longer has the energy to resist the cop. But the entire time the cop also maintains his balance even when he is attacked by the woman in pink. It is probably do to the strength of the attack, and his natural physical reaction and conditioning.

In this instance it was a battle of kazushi between the two, much like all conflict are. We employ waza at some point of the conflict for the advantage of kazushi, be it by atemi (if that is part of your style), or before, during or after Aikido waza. Simply standing and looking at your opponent isn't going to result in kazushi.

Having a full understanding in employing kazushi is of course is important and vital to wining a conflict. Neither the cop nor the women gained kazushi. Both where on balance and failed at kazushi brought the conflict from a long stalemate to failure of energy.

The woman being emotionally agitated is working on adrenaline levels higher then the cop, which she is not aware of. I have read material addressed to cops in dealing and controlling adrenaline dumps. I will assume he is aware of that because of his emotional state and control during the situation. A person, like the woman, in an uncontrolled adrenaline dump state plays a determining factor in the successfulness of waza in terms of kazushi - being the key element. That is waza is to assist in obtaining kazushi. Once kazushi is achieved control is achieved. Therefore, at what point when do you apply a waza, (excluding atemi due to the situation) to obtain kazushi in this situation? Is it before, during or after.

In my view, a waza should be applied, per this situation, when the woman naturally breaks her own kazushi. Which can be seen in the vid. When the women shifts her weight, or shifts her posture (off her own centerline), or is in mid-step she compromises her balance. Honestly, this isn’t something wholly profound as it is found in many martial arts. A simple basic that is very effective, and can be considered, when at the forefront of consciousness a secret in plain sight. The key then, which I feel in this situation was timing.

The cop was either early or late in his timing applying his efforts, and failing to obtain kazushi. The women reacted to the cops poor timing to maintain her balance. In a sense his poor timing worked against him, and made it more difficult to obtain his goal. Had the cop, had proper Aikido training, equaling his presumed understanding of adrenaline dump, his waza would have been nothing more than his weight shifting when she naturally compromised her balance. Therefore he would only need to apply a waza partially to gain the control he needed. The exact wazas can be debated later. In this way, the waza wouldn’t have not looked overly excessive to many members in the crowed who were bias against the cop. For example, if he struct her, or applied a jujitsu arm barre driving her forcefully down and locking her up in wincing and excruciating pain. 
Some members of the crowd would have done more than the women in pink. Obviously, a dangerous situation for the cop.

This video can show how Aikido wazas can be successfully used in various levels of application without looking violent and gain control - though some waza look violent- hence ideal and effective for these kinds of situations as seen in the vid.

Last edited by Buck : 06-19-2010 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 06-23-2010, 12:52 AM   #47
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Re: Why The Seattle Cop Needed Aikido

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYE0OKrziok

A lighter side - perhaps.

Last edited by senshincenter : 06-23-2010 at 12:55 AM.

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Old 06-23-2010, 08:09 AM   #48
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Re: Why The Seattle Cop Needed Aikido

Quote:
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That was some funny ship!

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