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Old 06-17-2010, 06:37 AM   #26
DonMagee
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Re: Madman With A Gun

I have a spare tire and tire tool in my car. I have never once had a flat tire.

I carry a leatherman on my belt. I can think of about maybe a dozen times I have needed it in the last few years.

I have a first aid kit and flare in my car. They have never been used in my life.

I have a fire extinguisher in my kitchen. I have never had a house fire.

In that same token, I see nothing unreasonable with carrying a small and effective hand gun on my person. Which is why I carry a Walther PPS 9mm every single day, even though I've never needed to shoot at a human being in my entire life.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-17-2010, 07:02 AM   #27
lbb
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Re: Madman With A Gun

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Let me define "playing the odds" a bit better. Every time someone gets into a car to drive somewhere and doesn't use a seat belt, they are, as in gambling terms, playing the odds that they won't get into a serious accident and get seriously hurt.

"Playing the odds" means that the odds are sooo huge against something happening that it's statistically near zero. As Keith pointed out, the odds of being a part of something like what the article mentions are, well, near zero.

So, if you don't train at all for those kinds of situations, you're "playing the odds". Nothing wrong with that ... because you're part of the 1,000,000,000 and not the 1.
But this is only part of a decent risk analysis. You need to consider:
  • The odds of something happening
  • The consequences if it does happen
  • The possibilities of trying to change the odds OR mitigate the consequences, and the cost of doing so
Your example of choosing to not wear a seatbelt is really quite dissimilar from not training to deal with a madman with a gun. Given that the odds are the same (I have no idea if they are -- I expect the likelihood of a car accident is quite a bit higher, but we'll say they're the same), and the consequences are the same (potentially fatal), it's a simple act to put on a seatbelt, and doing so greatly reduces the chances of serious consequences if there is an accident. It's not a "maybe" thing, it's a known effective fix, it's simple, easily accessible and trouble-free. Nothing similar exists for dealing with a madman with a gun.
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Old 06-17-2010, 07:38 AM   #28
MM
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Re: Madman With A Gun

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
but we'll say they're the same), and the consequences are the same (potentially fatal), it's a simple act to put on a seatbelt, and doing so greatly reduces the chances of serious consequences if there is an accident. It's not a "maybe" thing, it's a known effective fix, it's simple, easily accessible and trouble-free. Nothing similar exists for dealing with a madman with a gun.
For purposes of the example, let's say they're the same. You're right in that the seat belt is not a maybe thing. It's known because it has been researched, tested, etc. The point of this thread is to bring to light all the research, testing, etc for the madman with a gun.

As Eric pointed out, there is at least some training out there that covers aspects of that kind of situation. As Kevin pointed out, the military covers aspects of that situation. There is research out there for dealing with disturbed individuals. There are courses for that, too. I'm surprised no one has brought those up.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
In that same token, I see nothing unreasonable with carrying a small and effective hand gun on my person. Which is why I carry a Walther PPS 9mm every single day, even though I've never needed to shoot at a human being in my entire life.
Sorry, Don, but we aren't covering armed situations. Carrying a gun is null and void in this thread. However, I do think that your point about not going anywhere where you can't carry a gun is valid. It also hinders you in that you won't be able to go to court, schools, universities, foreign countries, etc. While a valid solution, it doesn't cover this thread's topic of being in a place where guns are not allowed. Instances of madmen shooting in a school and court are documented.

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Obviously my thought/philosophy process runs in line with Keith's.

Back here in the states...well I agree, how do you prepare to deal with two kids that randomly decide to open up on you?

I can't answer that question very well personally and given the odds of it happening, well I don't see any rationale sense in worrying about it 24/7 and still failing cause "i didn't see it coming".
I get what you and Keith are saying. Part of that is why this thread was created.

I think we get that it's a tough situation, it's unpredictable, and hard to see coming. I think we all get that "playing the odds" is a valid, solid answer because these kinds of things are extremely rare.

You, Keith, Mary and others can keep repeating it and I'll just keep agreeing with you. Solid answers.

Except, now turn your attention to your question and that questions is exactly why this thread is here...

"how do you prepare to deal with two kids that randomly decide to open up on you?"

Just because you, Keith, Mary, or even me for that matter can't answer that question, doesn't mean there are no answers.
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Old 06-17-2010, 07:52 AM   #29
Keith Larman
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Re: Madman With A Gun

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I have a spare tire and tire tool in my car. I have never once had a flat tire.

I carry a leatherman on my belt. I can think of about maybe a dozen times I have needed it in the last few years.

I have a first aid kit and flare in my car. They have never been used in my life.

I have a fire extinguisher in my kitchen. I have never had a house fire.

In that same token, I see nothing unreasonable with carrying a small and effective hand gun on my person. Which is why I carry a Walther PPS 9mm every single day, even though I've never needed to shoot at a human being in my entire life.
Don, FWIW I don't have much problem with law abiding, sane, trained citizens carrying. Notice the caveats, but after that... No worries from me.

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Old 06-17-2010, 08:04 AM   #30
Keith Larman
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Re: Madman With A Gun

Well, as I said before, apart from generalized awareness training, training in high stress and then specialized (and quality) training in gun disarming which I think I've already covered as a sort of "high level" budo training in the first place, I'm not sure there's more you can do unless we start introducing specific contexts.

If you're an air marshal the madman with a gun takes on a specific, real context because the "domain of possibilities" tends to collapse into specific issues. It will also collapse to a different set of issues if you're a school teacher and need to worry about a school environment. And so on. So within specific contexts it starts to make sense. But then we've gotten away from the notion of the "random, unpredictable" madman with a gun in general. The very thing that makes that person so very dangerous is the unpredictability. So we close the circle and get back to being aware, etc.

One thing I asked my kids was this. I said .... "Let's assume you're walking alone down a dark street late at night. A guy starts walking directly toward you waving a stick. What do you do?"

I got all sorts of answers.

My reply was "What the heck are you doing by yourself out late at night walking down a dark street in the first place?"

That situation hopefully I can instill some common sense. And some awareness. Like looking through the bank window before entering just in case something bad is happening. Or just being aware in general before entering a business. But at some point "being prepared for anything" becomes "living a life of paranoia and fear". The former is a good think, I think, but the line between the the former and the latter is thick, wide and fuzzy. We all draw it differently. But I will say that some spend a lifetime with a bunker mentality only to die from slipping in the bathtub. Or having a tree fall on their bedroom while they sleep. Or a massive coronary due to the lifetime of stress.

So now I'll sit back and wait for other ideas. Lord knows if there are good ideas of specific things that one can do that are rational and reasonable, I'm all ears and willing to learn.

Last edited by Keith Larman : 06-17-2010 at 08:05 AM. Reason: Fixed some wording

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Old 06-17-2010, 08:19 AM   #31
MM
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Re: Madman With A Gun

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Keith Larman wrote: View Post
One thing I asked my kids was this. I said .... "Let's assume you're walking alone down a dark street late at night. A guy starts walking directly toward you waving a stick. What do you do?"

I got all sorts of answers.

My reply was "What the heck are you doing by yourself out late at night walking down a dark street in the first place?"
LOL! That was great.

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Keith Larman wrote: View Post
So now I'll sit back and wait for other ideas. Lord knows if there are good ideas of specific things that one can do that are rational and reasonable, I'm all ears and willing to learn.
The idea (I'm borrowing the phrase) of "I didn't know that I didn't know" is something I keep in mind lately. And you summed things up nicely, so I put it in bold.

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:15 AM   #32
DonMagee
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Re: Madman With A Gun

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Sorry, Don, but we aren't covering armed situations. Carrying a gun is null and void in this thread. However, I do think that your point about not going anywhere where you can't carry a gun is valid. It also hinders you in that you won't be able to go to court, schools, universities, foreign countries, etc. While a valid solution, it doesn't cover this thread's topic of being in a place where guns are not allowed. Instances of madmen shooting in a school and court are documented.
Well then, rather than training myself to run at a man shooting at me with some strange superhero hope of disarming him before he shoots me, I instead use that time to campaign for gun reform so I can carry in courts, schools, etc. Luckily for me, this is working. For example in many college campuses you can now indeed carry firearms (although it is still illegal in classrooms). It feels good to walk around the college where I work and see student signs supporting the right to carry.

I see this is a a valid form of defense. I can't hope to disarm an armed attacker with a gun unless I am either already standing right next to him and saw him coming or he is one hell of a horrible shot. That only leaves two options.

1) Run as fast as you can and hope you don't get shot.
2) Hide and hope you don't get found and shot.

I however have nothing else to add so I'll stop clogging up your thread.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:35 AM   #33
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Re: Madman With A Gun

If we're only allowed our empty hands to deal with the madman with the gun, and our efforts to avoid or prevent the situation are irrelevant, then I've got nothing to say. I'll exit the thread too, with one parting thought: the three factors I cited above about risk assessment go double for risk prevention and management -- you just can't leave any of them out.
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Old 06-17-2010, 11:09 AM   #34
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Re: Madman With A Gun

I will say that I'm up for the challenge of anyone trying to disarm without weapons while I try to shoot them with an airsoft pistol.

I've had a few friends try. The results where a lot of people shot with airsoft pistols (which strangely are not soft at all).

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-17-2010, 11:38 AM   #35
Keith Larman
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Re: Madman With A Gun

Been there, done that, stings a lot...

Bottom line. If the gun is out, pray and you'd damned well either be *very* close if you're going to disarm or running away like a jackrabbit with epilepsy...

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Old 06-17-2010, 11:43 AM   #36
Eric Joyce
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Re: Madman With A Gun

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
I will say that I'm up for the challenge of anyone trying to disarm without weapons while I try to shoot them with an airsoft pistol.

I've had a few friends try. The results where a lot of people shot with airsoft pistols (which strangely are not soft at all).
Hi Don,

In addition to the hard, plastic handguns and rifles, we experimented with AirSoft pistols as well in learning how to disarm someone. It added a different level of stress to the situation. What I can say is that it can be done. There were a few times where it didn't work, but we were able to pull it off most of the time. Of course it depends a lot on how close the person is to you. It takes some very diligent practice.

Question, in your use of the Air Soft gun, did you ever practice the 21 foot rule drill?

Eric Joyce
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Old 06-17-2010, 11:46 AM   #37
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Re: Madman With A Gun

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Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Been there, done that, stings a lot...

Bottom line. If the gun is out, pray and you'd damned well either be *very* close if you're going to disarm or running away like a jackrabbit with epilepsy...
LOL...Exactly, get out of Dodge.

Eric Joyce
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Old 06-17-2010, 07:36 PM   #38
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Madman With A Gun

Keith Larman wrote:

Quote:
If you're an air marshal the madman with a gun takes on a specific, real context because the "domain of possibilities" tends to collapse into specific issues. It will also collapse to a different set of issues if you're a school teacher and need to worry about a school environment. And so on. So within specific contexts it starts to make sense. But then we've gotten away from the notion of the "random, unpredictable" madman with a gun in general. The very thing that makes that person so very dangerous is the unpredictability. So we close the circle and get back to being aware, etc.
This is my thoughts on this as well. I am highly trained in the context of the military. Right now, I carry an M4 all decked out with 4 different site systems as well as a M9, I have access to Close Air Support etc.

I also have parameters I work within in doing my duties. Many of them are unknown to a degree, but as a soldier, in a combat zone, I am also under a different set of conditions and have clues, intel etc in order to react.

And yes, I even have to prepare to deal with being ambushed or surprised by say two bad guys that get the jump on me.

Well in that context, I just might die.

If I live, well I fall back on my training which I have spent the better part of a long time and recently the last two months on honing my reflexive skills in combative techniques. I spend hours in the hot sun shooting my weapons in many different ways under many different conditions. I practice fighting through the fire fight, transitioning to my systems, jammed weapons drills, empty handed combatives etc.

So, I think this is how you adequately prepare to deal with this situation. You train for it as if your life depended on it if you honestly believe it is important to you to do so.

Otherwise, you simply spend the time enjoying what life you do have with your family and friends and hope that you made the right decisions in your life and have led a good life.

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Old 06-17-2010, 07:42 PM   #39
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Madman With A Gun

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Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
Hi Don,

In addition to the hard, plastic handguns and rifles, we experimented with AirSoft pistols as well in learning how to disarm someone. It added a different level of stress to the situation. What I can say is that it can be done. There were a few times where it didn't work, but we were able to pull it off most of the time. Of course it depends a lot on how close the person is to you. It takes some very diligent practice.

Question, in your use of the Air Soft gun, did you ever practice the 21 foot rule drill?
I don't so much believe in disarming them as much as I do rendering them incapable of using the weapon. Might seem like semantics, but I think that controlling the weapon system is really the goal and not disarming them. You can control the weapon system without disarming them, and you can render them incapable of not using it with out disarming them.

Essentially if you have a lethal weapon and you are fighting me, I am not really concerned so much with getting that lethal weapon out of your hands as much as I am concerned with keeping you from using it...what ever that may take. Lethal force, plowing you into a wall, busting you up...whatever. Once I have control...then maybe I will worry about the long term of goal of disarming.

Of course, use of force criteria apply and force must be appropriate.

However, again, I think the paradigm that says concentrate on disarming can get you in trouble.

Rule of 21...yea it is a bitch and everyone should understand it if they are dealing with weapons.

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Old 06-17-2010, 08:45 PM   #40
Eric Joyce
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Re: Madman With A Gun

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I don't so much believe in disarming them as much as I do rendering them incapable of using the weapon. Might seem like semantics, but I think that controlling the weapon system is really the goal and not disarming them. You can control the weapon system without disarming them, and you can render them incapable of not using it with out disarming them.

Essentially if you have a lethal weapon and you are fighting me, I am not really concerned so much with getting that lethal weapon out of your hands as much as I am concerned with keeping you from using it...what ever that may take. Lethal force, plowing you into a wall, busting you up...whatever. Once I have control...then maybe I will worry about the long term of goal of disarming.

Of course, use of force criteria apply and force must be appropriate.

However, again, I think the paradigm that says concentrate on disarming can get you in trouble.

Rule of 21...yea it is a bitch and everyone should understand it if they are dealing with weapons.
Yeah that 21 rule is tough. We did some drills with a 9MM with blanks (not holstered or anything, just hand and gun at the side) and we did the "tap and rack" before firing at the charging target. It's amazing how much distance the attacker can cover.

If I may provide a little bit more info on the topic of disarms. The over-arching principle in Krav Maga's defenses against handgun threats is this: Once you are out of the line of fire, do not go back in. Every technique prescribes to this basic principle. In addition, all Krav Maga techniques adhere to the following four stages:

1. Redirect the Line of Fire
2. Control the Weapon
3. Counterattack
4. Disarm

You may or may not go through all of these stages, depending on the situation. This just gives us the breakdown so that we can practice it over and over again to the point it becomes automatic, fast and smooth. Then we add stress scenarios and start amping it up a bit.

It's good stuff to practice. Just my 2 cents.

Eric Joyce
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Old 06-18-2010, 07:17 AM   #41
DonMagee
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Re: Madman With A Gun

In this case however, the mad man will be shooting before you. This is different then a guy going for his gun in an argument where you could cover the ground before he starts shooting.

This is a madman situation. This means a guy who walks into your popeyes chicken holding a rifle and just starts blasting people. I've never seen a martial arts demo that starts with the attacker already shooting at you.

In the cases where I've played with airsoft, the following 'tests' were done.

1) Standoff where the attacker already has gun pointed at you.
2) Standoff where the attacker will be drawing his gun and shooting at you.
3) You are in a fist fight and the attacker may or may not have a knife or gun.

In case one, the defender was always shot. In case two, the defender was shot or got into a grappling situation to control the gun arm. In case three the defender was shot more often then not.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:58 PM   #42
Aikibu
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Re: Madman With A Gun

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I take none. extremely rare that I can imagine such conditions that would warrant me to carry a gun or that I can imagine how I might mitigate such an occurrence anyway as a "civil" member of society.

Besides, I really want to live in a world in which I can go about my day to day life and not have to worry about bad guys all the time. I get enough of that at work.

I support people's right to bear arms, it is just not something that I personally feel inclined to do on a daily basis. If things get bad enough then I will, i want that option and choice to be mine.

IMM, the logic that says I should carry a gun to mitigate risk, means that I'd also have to wear a protective helmet all the time since I have had more head injuries from running into tree branches, signs, and falling on ice than I have been attacked by bad guys in America.

I also like the logic that requires hunters to wear blaze orange to protect themselves. That is okay, but if we were really concerned about their lives we should also require them to carry defibulators as each fall more hunters die from cardiac arrest while hunting than from being shot! (sorry can't find the reference right now).

I love statistics and logic!
Me too...To me preparing for a "Mad Man with a Gun." with is like preparing for Godzilla to walk out of Santa Monica Bay and destroy LA.

William Hazen
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Old 06-18-2010, 04:05 PM   #43
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Re: Madman With A Gun

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Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
Yeah that 21 rule is tough. We did some drills with a 9MM with blanks (not holstered or anything, just hand and gun at the side) and we did the "tap and rack" before firing at the charging target. It's amazing how much distance the attacker can cover.

If I may provide a little bit more info on the topic of disarms. The over-arching principle in Krav Maga's defenses against handgun threats is this: Once you are out of the line of fire, do not go back in. Every technique prescribes to this basic principle. In addition, all Krav Maga techniques adhere to the following four stages:

1. Redirect the Line of Fire
2. Control the Weapon
3. Counterattack
4. Disarm

You may or may not go through all of these stages, depending on the situation. This just gives us the breakdown so that we can practice it over and over again to the point it becomes automatic, fast and smooth. Then we add stress scenarios and start amping it up a bit.

It's good stuff to practice. Just my 2 cents.
Good stuff. No issues with your 4 stages.

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Old 06-19-2010, 09:56 AM   #44
dps
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Re: Madman With A Gun

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Keith Larman wrote:
I have access to Close Air Support etc.
I am jealous.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
In this case however, the mad man will be shooting before you. This is different then a guy going for his gun in an argument where you could cover the ground before he starts shooting.

This is a madman situation. This means a guy who walks into your popeyes chicken holding a rifle and just starts blasting people. I've never seen a martial arts demo that starts with the attacker already shooting at you.
If you survive the initial attack then it is time for Close Air Support.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZFFQ...eature=related
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Old 06-19-2010, 03:38 PM   #45
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Re: Madman With A Gun

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Me too...To me preparing for a "Mad Man with a Gun." with is like preparing for Godzilla to walk out of Santa Monica Bay and destroy LA.

William Hazen
Just to chime in, per the link, I too feel this way. There are other more applicable situation in my life that I have to be concerned with. A madman with a gun opening fire on crowd is low on my list. Yes, the possibility exists, as there has been some infrequent incidences. It is more likely most people will have to face an armed robber. Or a disgruntled individual shoots who shoots co-workers ,friends, family or, rivals, sadly. Yes, often there are unrelated people in those incidences who are shot, unfortunately. Even then compared to the population size and infrequence it is pretty rare. That is not something we need to worry about.

Because if some like that does happen the victims are taken by surprise, unprepared, and untrained to deal with the situation in a split second. And the shooter usually is at a healthily distance from the victims. Making is difficult to disarm the shoot, who is also on a heighten offensive emotional state All of which provides the shooters with a greater advantage over those he is victimizing.

I may be in a place or a situation as described. But, I do believe, as any good common self-defense class will tell you is to be aware and avoid such situations and environments when ever possible. If I proceed with that line of thinking on top of the astronomical odds of such an encounter happening I am comfortable in saying I will be more likely killed in a plane crash, train wreck, or a robby gone bad.

I don't take any precautions for a madman shooter, as the fact being such precautions will not be effective if the even ever happens. Basically, the scenario of madman shoot is he will A) snip me as we have seen in several cases. Like the shooting event upon an elementary school that inspired the song "I don't like Mondays." Or those infamous random freeway shootings that scared the hell out of people in the Eastern USA. Oh, and like the pivotal University of Austin clock tower sniper. 2) Be heavily armed with high power weapons, note the plural in weapons. Having enough ammo to fend off an army. Like the McDonalds shooter years back, or the Columbine shooters and all the other school shooters, including Austin. All of which the shooter(s) take unsuspecting victims by surprise, dolling out war like chaos and carnage in seconds, way before anyone knows what is going on, or can stop it.

Madmen and women plan and prepare their surprise attacks to maximize the victim count, to have the edge and advantage, and that is hard to fight and a rare event. Such a thing isn't a daily occurrence. There are more things in life that will occur more often and frequently than being a victim of such an incident of a madman with a gun. Evens that I have more control over and can avoid. Why throw another log on the pile of worries and concerns of living. If it is going to happen it will, and it will be very fast, within seconds, and by surprise where you have little or no advantage to control the situation. Simply, either your will be killed, wounded, or neither.

If you're killed or wounded you won't see it coming, and it happens before you can take your next blink. If you survive, in those first few seconds long enough to counter you will probably be out gunned. The shooter (not a sniper) will probably have an illegal high powered automatic weapon. So you will have to have a personality or professional training and experience to make your one shot count. Per a sniper, if you survive, it would be very difficult to disarm, much less spot the sniper's position without special training and equipment, and consider you will be pinned down. Like the sniper California and Texas snipers did to their targets. Or you will not have a chance to locate the sniper to counter the attack, like the Freeway snipers.

To answer the questions posted, I don't fret over being faced with the event of a madman with a gun. I am more concerned with being involved in a multi-car pile up than a madman with a gun.

Last edited by Buck : 06-19-2010 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 06-19-2010, 04:32 PM   #46
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Re: Madman With A Gun

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Me too...To me preparing for a "Mad Man with a Gun." with is like preparing for Godzilla to walk out of Santa Monica Bay and destroy LA.
Come on, dude...in the real Godzilla movies he always goes after Tokyo or New York.
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Old 06-19-2010, 07:18 PM   #47
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Re: Madman With A Gun

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Come on, dude...in the real Godzilla movies he always goes after Tokyo or New York.
I swear We're NEXT!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH GOOOOOJIRA!

William Hazen
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Old 06-19-2010, 07:24 PM   #48
Aikibu
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Re: Madman With A Gun

On a sadder note The Madman With A Gun scenario just occurred in San Bernadino this afternoon... Some dude walked into a fast food place with two pistols...shot a family of four while they were eating and then turned one gun on himself.

Having Martial Awareness or being skilled in gun takeaways do not come into play...

Just another dude exercising his screwed up view of the 2nd amendment

William Hazen
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Old 06-19-2010, 08:29 PM   #49
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Re: Madman With A Gun

http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/p...dies-1.2037696

http://news.lalate.com/2010/06/19/de...an-bernardino/

It seems that this is a domestic violence case. Sadly, this does happen all too often.
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Old 06-20-2010, 04:14 AM   #50
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Re: Madman With A Gun

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
It seems that this is a domestic violence case.
It was a targeted killing with an unknown motive as of yet, one in which the killer and victims knew each other. The killer had a prior criminal record including violent crimes. While you may argue that anyone who kills someone else in a non-self-defense situation fits the definition of "mad", this does seem to be different from the "madman with a gun" scenario originally hypothesized.
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