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Old 06-04-2010, 11:44 AM   #101
bulevardi
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

Was it a ceramic raku cup ?

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Old 06-04-2010, 05:31 PM   #102
Ketsan
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Well, what's your definition of effectiveness?
Effectiveness is the ability to subdue an untrained and unarmed opponent all of the time, an untrained armed opponent 25% of the time and the ability to subdue a trained unarmed opponent 50% of the time after five years training.
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Old 06-04-2010, 05:33 PM   #103
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

Quote:
Dirk Desmet wrote: View Post
If you read Morihei's biography, you can clearly notice that Ueshiba meant: "Aikido is becoming one with the universe"
"Aikido is love and harmony", "Aikido is combining the three worlds". etc etc...
He didn't meant to create another martial art. He didn't want competition or fights. He wanted to create a movement where people get closer to enlightment, where people get in harmony instead of fight. Where people would misunderstand Aikido in the Martial Art world.
Aikido is an achievement of awareness in the physical and spiritual world.
With atemi.
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Old 06-04-2010, 05:35 PM   #104
Ketsan
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

Before you complain about how Aikido is misunderstood by outsiders, it would be a good idea to see how well it is understood by insiders.
Good Luck with that.

David
As I see it, if you can't reach a common definition you're talking about something which doesn't exist.
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Old 06-04-2010, 05:42 PM   #105
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

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Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I'm just curious; does the skeptics have practical experience where Aikido has personally failed them? Or, are the criticism based on prejudice, or preconception of how combative should operate?

There was that time O' Sensei chased a kid out in the street and out of carelessness, he slipped and fell in a puddle. I guess that's Aikido failing... but if that's the only example skeptics can site than Aikido frankly has a good track record.
They assume that if Aikido was effective it would be in MMA.
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Old 06-04-2010, 07:17 PM   #106
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

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Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
They assume that if Aikido was effective it would be in MMA.
but...MMA is a sport.
One in which small circle manipulation is illegal as well.......

MM
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Old 06-04-2010, 08:20 PM   #107
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

what do you mean small circle manipulation is illegal? It isn't that I know of.

Aikido failed me big time in non-compliant situations when i tried to use it in the context of my aikido training..that is applied literally.

I was too ignorant to realize that what we train in the dojo as methodology and principle....well, it does not mean you fight that way...there is alot we typically leave out in aikido. ALOT!

Now that I understand that, it doesn't fail me too often, yet of course, you also don't win all the time and every time too! lots of parameters.

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Old 06-04-2010, 08:26 PM   #108
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
what do you mean small circle manipulation is illegal? It isn't that I know of.

Aikido failed me big time in non-compliant situations when i tried to use it in the context of my aikido training..that is applied literally.

I was too ignorant to realize that what we train in the dojo as methodology and principle....well, it does not mean you fight that way...there is alot we typically leave out in aikido. ALOT!

Now that I understand that, it doesn't fail me too often, yet of course, you also don't win all the time and every time too! lots of parameters.
Correct me if I am wrong of course, in my experience, finger and wrist locks are not allowed in non-black belt MMA fights and in BJJ competition.

Of course you don't fight that way... Aikido was never meant to be used to fight. Self defense yes, but fights no.

MM
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Old 06-04-2010, 08:29 PM   #109
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Effectiveness is the ability to subdue an untrained and unarmed opponent all of the time, an untrained armed opponent 25% of the time and the ability to subdue a trained unarmed opponent 50% of the time after five years training.
thanks for trying. You get big points in my book for being like the first guy to actually come out and throw something out there!

Now this opens up a whole nother discussion really.

To me, there are so, so many parameters that get factored into a situation, that I really don't think you can nail this down quantifiably like this, but okay, for discussion sake sure! at least we have the beginning of a frame work.

how do you account for the ambush? how about initiative? size, weight, age, speed etc. these things have nothing to do with the skill level of the opponent, yet have a direct impact on the odds and percentages you list above.

if you use the "all other things being equal" limitation, well then it really doesn't help either, cause "all things are never equal".

I suppose my point is, that you can't say, this or that is effective/ineffective.....the only thing you can do is give yourself as many experiences as possible under different conditions, sizes, light conditions, suprise, spontaneous reactions etc...and attempt to ellicit appropriate responses in those situations.

Since we typically don't train aikido that way...as a RBSD system, then by methodology alone, it is really not a very effective way to train, IMO, if this is your primary concern.

Hence, why it will get the bad rap of not being effective. I certainly don't spend time training my soldiers in aikido methodology in the short amount of time I have to spend with them! why, cause it is simply NOT effective as a methodology for the percentages you list above.

That doesn't mean that it does not work...or is INEFFECTIVE. no not at all. Just that if your criteria is based on the things you say above...then I can think of alot better ways to mitigate those risk.

Hence why alot of RBSD guys say it is "not effective" and in a real sense...well they are absolutely right!

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Old 06-04-2010, 08:49 PM   #110
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
Correct me if I am wrong of course, in my experience, finger and wrist locks are not allowed in non-black belt MMA fights and in BJJ competition.

Of course you don't fight that way... Aikido was never meant to be used to fight. Self defense yes, but fights no.
most BJJ and submission grappling tournaments it is three or more fingers..and it usually okay. it depends on the tournament.

Wrist locks are okay usually except at white belt level. I use wrist locks all the time.

what is the difference between self defense and a fight?

If your talking about sport fighting vice fighting for defense..sure I agree..there are some different strategies because of the rules etc.

However, I don't necessarily agree that with the reasoning that says that aikidoka can't prove themselves in the ring cause of limitations of the rules and that makes a big difference.

I disagree, I personally believe that anyone that calls him or herself a "master" of empty handed martial arts, especially a jiu jitsu type system should be able to demonstrate an acceptable level of skill across the spectrum of "fighting" to include submission grappling and/or MMA type fighting.

I don't think you need to be able to beat a pro fighter, but you should at least be able to handle yourself in some basic non-compliant scenarios under those rules.

such as being able to pummell for under hooks, do some basic takedowns and throws, avoid headlocks and sprawl techniques, maintain and escape the guard, the mount, side control etc.

These are fundamental things you see in all fights or self defense situations and there simply IMO no way around needing to have an understanding of these things.

MMA and UFC type events have demonstrated this over and over..that there are some common, fundamental and basic skills that need to be acquired.

Also, remember the early UFCs. There were no illegal techniques actually, that was a fallacy. They agreed to some standards, yet there was nothing in the end that would have prevented them from winning if they went to those things.

Not trying to give the BJJ dogmatic speech..yet I am also constantly amazed that people are still in denial over the fundamental skills that are important that are covered in BJJ and Judo curriculums.

Not saying you need to learn BJJ or 100 open guard techniques, or even spend a great deal of time doing BJJ for SD.

However, you do need to have some basic, fundamental skills, that I have found many in aikido simply do not have and refuse to face.

MMA and especially Royce Gracie and BJJ has proven this.

That does not mean that MMA or BJJ is the the gold standard to measure all effectiveness by. I agree Maggie.

However, at the same time, we can learn alot about what is important and fundamental about fighitng.

The first step in learning to fight, is learning how to survive the initial attack. If nothing else, MMA and BJJ can teach us what we need to know to do this.

ONce you survive, go for all the eye gouging, submission, finger locks and groin kicks you want to use!

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Old 06-04-2010, 09:15 PM   #111
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
most BJJ and submission grappling tournaments it is three or more fingers..and it usually okay. it depends on the tournament.

Wrist locks are okay usually except at white belt level. I use wrist locks all the time.

what is the difference between self defense and a fight?

If your talking about sport fighting vice fighting for defense..sure I agree..there are some different strategies because of the rules etc.

However, I don't necessarily agree that with the reasoning that says that aikidoka can't prove themselves in the ring cause of limitations of the rules and that makes a big difference.

I disagree, I personally believe that anyone that calls him or herself a "master" of empty handed martial arts, especially a jiu jitsu type system should be able to demonstrate an acceptable level of skill across the spectrum of "fighting" to include submission grappling and/or MMA type fighting.

I don't think you need to be able to beat a pro fighter, but you should at least be able to handle yourself in some basic non-compliant scenarios under those rules.

such as being able to pummell for under hooks, do some basic takedowns and throws, avoid headlocks and sprawl techniques, maintain and escape the guard, the mount, side control etc.

These are fundamental things you see in all fights or self defense situations and there simply IMO no way around needing to have an understanding of these things.

MMA and UFC type events have demonstrated this over and over..that there are some common, fundamental and basic skills that need to be acquired.

Also, remember the early UFCs. There were no illegal techniques actually, that was a fallacy. They agreed to some standards, yet there was nothing in the end that would have prevented them from winning if they went to those things.

Not trying to give the BJJ dogmatic speech..yet I am also constantly amazed that people are still in denial over the fundamental skills that are important that are covered in BJJ and Judo curriculums.

Not saying you need to learn BJJ or 100 open guard techniques, or even spend a great deal of time doing BJJ for SD.

However, you do need to have some basic, fundamental skills, that I have found many in aikido simply do not have and refuse to face.

MMA and especially Royce Gracie and BJJ has proven this.

That does not mean that MMA or BJJ is the the gold standard to measure all effectiveness by. I agree Maggie.

However, at the same time, we can learn alot about what is important and fundamental about fighitng.

The first step in learning to fight, is learning how to survive the initial attack. If nothing else, MMA and BJJ can teach us what we need to know to do this.

ONce you survive, go for all the eye gouging, submission, finger locks and groin kicks you want to use!
I really am arguing sports fighting vs real street attack.
Sport fighting has rules. Which greatly limit how the athletes train. I mean some competitive Karate schools never teach you to guard your face, because hits to the face are illegal in competition. So they don't bother wasting time with it... they also prefer you to get kicked in the face, because it automatically disqualifies the opponent in some arenas.

With that said I don't believe in fooling yourself. If you are a white belt in Aikido and you think you can win some MMA fight you are disillusioned. There is this weird mixed bag of people in Aikido. Some don't think it is effective...others, are too convinced of their own legend.

Bruce lee was once asked "What would you do if a guy grappled you to the ground." He replied "Bite them of course!"

MM
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Old 06-05-2010, 02:21 AM   #112
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote:
Bruce lee was once asked "What would you do if a guy grappled you to the ground." He replied "Bite them of course!"
Bruce Lee must never have faced a half way decent grappler!

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote:
One in which small circle manipulation is illegal as well
For the record, it's small *joint* manipulation.

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote:
Of course you don't fight that way... Aikido was never meant to be used to fight. Self defense yes, but fights no.
I would like to set aside Morihei's grander visions for aikido, which I happen to believe are very valid. I would also like to set aside for the moment training methodologies, which unquestionably have a huge impact on the effectiveness of the martial artist.

So how do we define self-defense and fight?

The techniques that form the recognizable core of aikido are not meant to address empty-handed situations.

If this is not grasped, it is hard to go to the next level of understanding.

These techniques come from a time when the men who developed them were constantly armed with at least a sword and a long knife and most likely shuriken, as well.

It's not a mistake that there are no boxing type punches in the traditional aikido attacks. A rush and a katate dori are much more of a threat to the armed man facing the unknown.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I don't think you need to be able to beat a pro fighter, but you should at least be able to handle yourself in some basic non-compliant scenarios under those rules.

such as being able to pummell for under hooks, do some basic takedowns and throws, avoid headlocks and sprawl techniques, maintain and escape the guard, the mount, side control etc.

These are fundamental things you see in all fights or self defense situations and there simply IMO no way around needing to have an understanding of these things.

MMA and UFC type events have demonstrated this over and over..that there are some common, fundamental and basic skills that need to be acquired.
Trust me. Trying to double-leg a man with a sword is far stupider than trying to apply tsuki kotegaeshi to a jab, which is pretty stupid.

Many, if not most, of these things are irrelevant to the armed man. He can easily dispatch of a person who attacks in that fashion. He is primarily concerned with the ability to continue to use his weapons. Closely related to this is dealing with multiple attackers and surprise.

This is the context for aikido's techniques. Whatever progress we are going to make regarding effectiveness must start from here.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 06-05-2010, 02:23 AM   #113
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

To answer the OP, yup, aikido is misunderstood.

I think the main reason for this is the lack of competition or free sparring that the other martial arts provide.

How does one truely guage their progress against a resistant opponent if one of the above elements is not in place?

I think this answers another question, some people have posted here. How do we recruit young, enthusiastic members?
I teach aikido to teenagers at the high school I work at and by and large most are looking for competition. Many of them just can't fathom a non-competitive martial art. In fact many of them enjoy a session where I allow them to choose any attack they can think of and their partner must first avoid the attack and then take the attacker's balance. They enjoy this immensely! I wouldn't call that typical aikido training.

Aikido will continue to be the misfit of martial arts because of the above reasons. Hey, I'm cool with that. It keeps me plenty busy.

Quote:
Many, if not most, of these things are irrelevant to the armed man. He can easily dispatch of a person who attacks in that fashion. He is primarily concerned with the ability to continue to use his weapons. Closely related to this is dealing with multiple attackers and surprise.
Also, the point above about training context resonates with me.

Dean.

Last edited by Amassus : 06-05-2010 at 02:27 AM.

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Old 06-05-2010, 06:15 AM   #114
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
what is the difference between self defense and a fight?

If your talking about sport fighting vice fighting for defense..sure I agree..there are some different strategies because of the rules etc.

such as being able to pummell for under hooks, do some basic takedowns and throws, avoid headlocks and sprawl techniques, maintain and escape the guard, the mount, side control etc.
Personally I think the BJJ/MMA concept of a fight applies primarily to 1 on 1 duels. It does not really deal with self defence scenarios where the odds and numbers are stacked against you. But then it is a sport, designed for entertainment, this is not its objective.

The main differences between this sort of thing and self defence is mindset and objective. As said before - in a self defence situation nothing is always equal, so to assume a 1 on 1 encounter and go to ground can be fatal.

Don't want to beat the dead horse anymore so I would like to offer this link - http://www.targetfocustraining.com/h...ted#more-11743

It gives a good comparison of what can happen when one has the wrong mindset for the situation, even with the expected training. A mindset for sport has no place in self defence.

Best
LC

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Old 06-05-2010, 07:09 AM   #115
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

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Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Personally I think the BJJ/MMA concept of a fight applies primarily to 1 on 1 duels. It does not really deal with self defence scenarios where the odds and numbers are stacked against you. But then it is a sport, designed for entertainment, this is not its objective.

The main differences between this sort of thing and self defence is mindset and objective. As said before - in a self defence situation nothing is always equal, so to assume a 1 on 1 encounter and go to ground can be fatal.

Don't want to beat the dead horse anymore so I would like to offer this link - http://www.targetfocustraining.com/h...ted#more-11743

It gives a good comparison of what can happen when one has the wrong mindset for the situation, even with the expected training. A mindset for sport has no place in self defence.

Best
LC
What you say may be true of BJJ or most martial arts, but applying that same theory to MMA is absurd. MMA fighters know the consequences of getting cornered, hit, clinched and taken down far better than any practitioner of a singular martial art. I agree about mindset, but the every day environment of MMA training is going to prepare someone for the pressure of a self defense situation FAR better than any amount of training in bjj/karate/aikido, alone or in combination.
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Old 06-05-2010, 08:22 AM   #116
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

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Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
but...MMA is a sport.
One in which small circle manipulation is illegal as well.......
No doubt but most people in martial arts have never been in a real fight and in all probability will never be in a real fight. In fact I doubt most of these people have even seen a real fight. The only reference point most of these people have is MMA. This is the world we work in.

Your comment about small joint manipulation actually reminds me of a lesson I wa taught a couple of weeks back about "protecting the thumb" where it was pointed out rather forcefully the dangers of allowing your thumb to be taken hold of.
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Old 06-05-2010, 08:59 AM   #117
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
thanks for trying. You get big points in my book for being like the first guy to actually come out and throw something out there!

how do you account for the ambush? how about initiative? size, weight, age, speed etc. these things have nothing to do with the skill level of the opponent, yet have a direct impact on the odds and percentages you list above.
Same way we do now, you look at the overall picture rather than individual cases so that you can seperate circumstances and individual ability from the art. Look for the pattern.
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Old 06-05-2010, 10:15 AM   #118
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post

Since we typically don't train aikido that way...as a RBSD system, then by methodology alone, it is really not a very effective way to train, IMO, if this is your primary concern.
I'm not so sure. One thing that's always impressed me about Aikidoka is that after about five years it seems to become a reflex action. Statled Aikidoka do some pretty interesting things.
When I first saw Tony Blauer's stuff my initital reaction was that he was teaching Aikido; we practice a slightly stylised version of the flinch response in every class. Unless there are people out there dealing with tsuki, shomen and yokomen in really weird ways.

It makes me wonder if rather than a movement that's intended to be taught it's just a stylised representation of the flinch response. "Here's your flinch response; then you do this" rather than "He attacks like this and you respond like this."
Startled Aikidoka go ballistic in my experience, the opponent is standing their throwing or trying to throw punches and kicks and the Aikidoka just powers straight through them.
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Old 06-05-2010, 10:44 AM   #119
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

I think one of the reasons Aikido is so misunderstood is because it is practiced so many different ways, defined so many different ways, and what is offered as Aikido is so diverse, that no one can understand Aikido as "one discernible art." It isn't.

Obviously, effectiveness in Aikido is always a hot topic. The "intended purpose" of Aikido notwithstanding (much debated as well) I think the discussion tends to be confusing and amorphous because effectiveness is difficult to define - there are many different possible circumstances one might encounter, and many different levels of intention involved.

Generally, and this is of course limited but a place to start, I think about Levels of Attack:

- Static
- Dynamic
- Aggressive

With the Intent To:

- bother
- intimidate
- immobilize/control
- grapple
- rob
- hurt
- fight (untrained)
- fight (trained fighter - fakes, set-ups etc.)
- create Chaos

Within this framework, in order to understand how to make my Aikido what I call Martially Responsible, I consider these basic questions:

Do I understand how to evaluate the threat and approach it accordingly

Do I understand possible attacks my partner (attacker etc.) may attempt

Do I understand how to respond initially, and why

Do I understand how to move in relation to what my partner is doing

Do I understand how to cover the strike zone and the various other targets available to my partner

Do I understand how to close down any opening I may have, or use them purposefully

Do I ever turn my back to my partner (I single this out because I see this mistake all the time, in dojos and on YouTube, at every level of practice and demonstration)

Do I understand how to progressively limit my partner's options

Do I understand how to stay ahead of the game

Do I understand what my goals are in relation to any encounter

Do I understand what it means to "not fight" yet to fully engage

Do I understand how to "do all this" in the context of what "my Aikido" is to me

The answers to these questions, to me, can all be found in Aikido, but not in what I call "Dojo Aikido" and not what I think of as "mainstream practice (or mainstream instruction, from what I have seen and experienced.)" The answers have to be looked for, and one must have a fair amount of experience in Aikido to find them, and much discernment and discipline to not give in to the desire to "add stuff from other arts" to "make up the difference." It is all there, but not very obvious, in fact, it is often hidden. But I feel it is very important to not change the art to achieve the goal of making one's Aikido Martially Responsible.

The only place that that changes, for me, is in ground work. I don't mean suwari waza, but ne waza, and I don't mean submissions either, as that would, to me, change Aikido into something it isn't. But the escapes from the ground that BJJ offers are great and in accord with what I consider to be the basic principles of Aikido, and I incorporate them, when I can time-wise, into my Aikido instruction.

The end point is not to make Aikido into a "fighting art" but to offer a practitioner an understanding of the broader field of experience around threatening life circumstance, and include the physical skills necessary to allow them to do the best they can in any situation, staying within an Aikido framework and mindset. This can fully include the spiritual level of Aikido, in terms of experience and outcome, in fact it might be absolutely necessary. It takes a high level of skill to "protect" an attacker in almost any situation.

Larry Novick
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Old 06-05-2010, 12:09 PM   #120
niall
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

Great questions. And from an aikido point of view rather than a general fighting one. I agree about ne waza.

And to take just two more of Larry's excellent points: yes what do we do against a feint (a trained fighter in his description).

Yes what do we think we are doing if we are turning our backs on our attackers.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
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Old 06-05-2010, 03:34 PM   #121
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
what do you mean small circle manipulation is illegal? It isn't that I know of.

Aikido failed me big time in non-compliant situations when i tried to use it in the context of my aikido training..that is applied literally.

I was too ignorant to realize that what we train in the dojo as methodology and principle....well, it does not mean you fight that way...there is alot we typically leave out in aikido. ALOT!

Now that I understand that, it doesn't fail me too often, yet of course, you also don't win all the time and every time too! lots of parameters.
Amen. I try to point out in most waza --

" ... and please remember that I would be hitting him -- here -- Here -- and --HERE --- as the movement progresses, but I want to avoid that at the moment -- because I want him to like me... and train with me again...


Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 06-05-2010, 06:33 PM   #122
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

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Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Personally I think the BJJ/MMA concept of a fight applies primarily to 1 on 1 duels. It does not really deal with self defence scenarios where the odds and numbers are stacked against you. But then it is a sport, designed for entertainment, this is not its objective.

The main differences between this sort of thing and self defence is mindset and objective. As said before - in a self defence situation nothing is always equal, so to assume a 1 on 1 encounter and go to ground can be fatal.

Don't want to beat the dead horse anymore so I would like to offer this link - http://www.targetfocustraining.com/h...ted#more-11743

It gives a good comparison of what can happen when one has the wrong mindset for the situation, even with the expected training. A mindset for sport has no place in self defence.

Best
LC
Larry,

Noted and I agree to a point. I train Soldiers every day right now in CQB from 300 meters out to 0 meters out and transitioning in between and dealing with multiple opponent.

I got it.

We work on transitioning from all our weapon systems and then practice point of failure drills throughout the ranges.

what I stated above deals with obviously an extreme point of failure and all I am stating is that you need to know how to survive in those situations to recover yourself back to a position that is higher in the hierarchy.

If we only practice the stuff we want to use, or imagining ourselves use then we have problems.

in an unarmed or a situation that you cannot use a weapon system, you will have to survive and maintain integrity till you can get back the space and distance you need.

So, yes, you need to know the basics of clinch, sprawl, mount, guard etc....this are fundamentals...not optimal fighting strategies!

if the odds are stack against you, then they are stack against you. that is just the way it is. Training to deal with situations when they are stack against you in paramount. point of failure training is important.

The guy in the website actually covers some good points concerning habits for sure. Not sure if his information is 100% credible as he provided no references and I am always suspect of someone that is selling something, but agree the main thing he points out is something you need to consider, which is paradigms and habits, something I am constantly preaching too!

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Old 06-05-2010, 06:45 PM   #123
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

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Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
I'm not so sure. One thing that's always impressed me about Aikidoka is that after about five years it seems to become a reflex action. Statled Aikidoka do some pretty interesting things.
When I first saw Tony Blauer's stuff my initital reaction was that he was teaching Aikido; we practice a slightly stylised version of the flinch response in every class. Unless there are people out there dealing with tsuki, shomen and yokomen in really weird ways.

It makes me wonder if rather than a movement that's intended to be taught it's just a stylised representation of the flinch response. "Here's your flinch response; then you do this" rather than "He attacks like this and you respond like this."
Startled Aikidoka go ballistic in my experience, the opponent is standing their throwing or trying to throw punches and kicks and the Aikidoka just powers straight through them.
Tony has some good stuff for sure, basic, but good. I teach the spear pretty much as the standard go to position in dealing with controlling and keeping distance and integrity.

When I work with people that need to learn something in a short period of time, I look at their natural responses first and then try to work with that natural response and change it into a better habit, or reprogram it is it is a bad response through repetitive stimulus until the can do that spontaneously. no need to teach folks alot of complicated and stylized stuff if they still have not learned or burned in a correct spontaneous response, IMO.

On "going ballistic", I think most folks probably have trained slow and relaxed and may actually cognitively know what to do since we typically will sit in seiza, sensei will demonstrate three times, then we stand up and copy sensei. We can do this cause we had time to think about it and had time to process and feel it through the visual and auditory channels first.

However, when the same person is presented with unknown "stress", before they have time to process it, then they may react quite differently all together.

It is why it is important to train the way Tony trains.

BTW, I trained with some decent MMA guys today and I mastered blocking with my face pretty good today! I tend to drive straight in vice circle out.

I have no issue with going in (irimi), as in a combatives situation, as Larry and a few others pointed out, we ain't trading blows and kicks for submission or a knock out. but, still good training and it helps me see and identify the differences in tactics between MMA sport fighitng and Combatives/Street stuff.

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Old 06-05-2010, 06:49 PM   #124
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

Michael Varin wrote,

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Trust me. Trying to double-leg a man with a sword is far stupider than trying to apply tsuki kotegaeshi to a jab, which is pretty stupid.

Many, if not most, of these things are irrelevant to the armed man. He can easily dispatch of a person who attacks in that fashion. He is primarily concerned with the ability to continue to use his weapons. Closely related to this is dealing with multiple attackers and surprise.

This is the context for aikido's techniques. Whatever progress we are going to make regarding effectiveness must start from here.
Agreed. and I agree about the context of aikido techniques. no problems at all with that.

yes, trying to maintain integrity to use weapons, absolutely.

What I probably didn't say very well, is that these things are fundamental when you lose that integrity and now it becomes a fight over the weapon or control to get to that weapon.

Context is important of course, as well as training for point of failure.

I know from reading your post over the years and watching your videos this is near and dear to your heart and you understand this.

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Old 06-05-2010, 06:54 PM   #125
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

Larry Novick:

Great post Larry. I like your criteria. I think it offers a great framework to base a study on and determine your relative effectiveness as I believe that effectiveness is relative and not really quantifiable.

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The end point is not to make Aikido into a "fighting art" but to offer a practitioner an understanding of the broader field of experience around threatening life circumstance, and include the physical skills necessary to allow them to do the best they can in any situation, staying within an Aikido framework and mindset. This can fully include the spiritual level of Aikido, in terms of experience and outcome, in fact it might be absolutely necessary. It takes a high level of skill to "protect" an attacker in almost any situation.
Larry, I really like this...yes.

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