Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-22-2010, 07:08 AM   #26
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Control in the martial arts.

Edit time ran out:
I wanted to edit the last paragraph to reflect choice I have made, not others.

Since I have fought with both methods; one from my youth, and one in the last twenty years, I would offer that through experience (and failing repeatedly while learning) the later method was a better way to go for me in freestyle fighting, and with various weapons.
YMMV.
Cheers
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2010, 07:42 AM   #27
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 930
United_States
Offline
Re: Control in the martial arts.

With regard to control in the martial arts - I don't think learning through failure can be overestimated. Especially in the context of taking ownership for what you are doing, figuring things out and making choices to progress.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2010, 09:00 AM   #28
Thomas Campbell
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 407
Offline
Re: Control in the martial arts.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Allen
Just quick, I gotta go train myself.....
It is the action of LC moving his waist and winding that powers his legs either sinking and in or rising and out in the video. If you watch around 1:35 or so you see him moving from the center but his hips (which hardly move) follow and are led by the waist. Now watch the guy in black to his left mimic him. He is moving from where? His hips. He will never get the same type of power and he will be more easily off lined (or in grappling, thrown) through them for his effort.

I have specific things I have people do to loosen up their hips from their waist but you already are in China and have a teacher to draw from. What is he telling you to do....more forms?

Tucking the sacrum is what I call "all-in" you are loading the legs on both sides, then you need to turn them or rotate around a line. You can see it in how some people move. You can also see it in some popular exercises people are doing right now. It has power and good up energy but it is more "fixed" than what I'm interested in. What is interesting is that in hip movement at any point in time you are on one side of that line.
It can also leave you in that popular (and in my opinion ill advised) "one legged army" everything goes to one path to the ground feel. FWIW, it's anathema or counter productive to good Japanese weapons work as well.
I like the two feet working together to twine around the middle myself. Think of it like two paths to the ground, instead of one -always working around like a DNA model one foot to the other hand.

With the sacrum neutral or even going slightly backward you can sink in the groin, then rotate "around the central line" making THEM work around that line and leaving them open to being off-lined, all while you are splitting the energy left / right, up/down, in/ out and turning. That way you can power the leg down and out or up and out, or cut a line drawing down and bisecting the body line and rotating (say a Naginata) and cutting up on the opposite side. Doing that with the hips is way to slow and can leave the end of the spear more open for countering.
Since I have fought with both methods one from my youth, and one in the last twenty years, I would offer that through experience (and failing repeatedly while learning) the later method is a better way to go in freestyle fighting, with various weapons and empty hands in modern venues.
Cheers
Dan
Good questions, Allan, and nicely detailed response, Dan. Thanks, both of you.

Pay attention, people.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2010, 12:40 AM   #29
AllanF
Location: Shenyang
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 56
China
Offline
Re: Control in the martial arts.

Hi Dan

Many thanks for the considered reply. You are right to say that my teacher like the majority of CMA teachers emphasises doing the forms. that said i have been working on single movements myself in order to find the most efficient way to develop the 'internal' body. And my teacher has started experimenting himself in this regard however i feel we are using each other as a laboratory with out being 100% sure that we are doing the right thing. That said it can be through experimentation that we find the right path...i hope!

Allan
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2010, 08:01 AM   #30
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,757
United_States
Offline
Re: Control in the martial arts.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hip driven power (easy to read in fighting and the basis for most throws)

Turning from the hips (although it is used in ICMA and many of the new JMA as well)

Always using the elbow and hand together
Always using the foot and knee, together

Letting power into your structure at contact points then training to physically move your whole body around it, as well as letting power in and then...tying to manipulate it after. While these are more of a "use" issue, there is a conditioning method to change how you manage force, so I would place it as a structural weakness or vulnerability for a lot of people as they just could not switch over by choice.

Dan
Dan, thanks for giving lots of info to mull over. most of the structure flaws you pointed out are around the joint area, i.e. the power couplings of the body. very much agree with the shoulders and hips. still a bit of puzzle on a couple of things, so just going to kick off the things on top of my head.

power from hips. to me this really is power from legs which comes up from the ground and the hips are just the power coupling/conduits to the center. the center then uses the power to channel in the direction of your intention. are you saying that power from ground is too slow and would telegraph your intention? or are you saying that the hips power independently which required some winding up?

my understanding based on what i know so far (which is pretty short) is that there are three power sources that you can draw upon: from the ground up via your lower body, down to the ground via your body weight, and winding/unwinding of the body. from those three, you have various combination and permutation. would certain combination more desirable for fighting based on your experience?

if you don't move your hand and elbow or foot and knee together, wouldn't that create isolated movements?

how would you able to keep power from entering your structure (maybe not understand this definition) if, say you get punch in the solar plex? unless you are meeting the power with another from inside?

Thanks
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2010, 06:24 PM   #31
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Control in the martial arts.

Quote:
power from hips. to me this really is power from legs which comes up from the ground and the hips are just the power coupling/conduits to the center. the center then uses the power to channel in the direction of your intention. are you saying that power from ground is too slow and would telegraph your intention? or are you saying that the hips power independently which required some winding up?

my understanding based on what i know so far (which is pretty short) is that there are three power sources that you can draw upon: from the ground up via your lower body, down to the ground via your body weight, and winding/unwinding of the body. from those three, you have various combination and permutation. would certain combination more desirable for fighting based on your experience?
Power from the legs can do many things. And bringing power up or connecting to the gorund is not the simple topic some make it out to be. Ground up / weight down / winding /expanding / contracting is a very interesting mixture of ideas and movements. People talk about it a lot don't they? Do you suppose they are all the same? Initiated the same way? IME, I have found even experts understanding of it intellectually and their effective use of it in fluid motion is another thing altogether. I think it's a deep subject.

If you are standing with your right leg forward and are grabbing and being grabbed by an opponent and want to off-line him to your left what would you do? Where would your power come from and how would it be used?

There is a way to generate power by using two paths to the ground that work in concert by opposing each other in-motion. This allows you to generate a tremendous amount of power (itself an interesting discussion of what that really means) as they join together in a single task...by working in opposite directions! And it isn't from using the hips the way people normally do in the martial arts, and "moving from the center" albeit trained, conditioned and for real...won't cut it either. It's a different level of training.
The good news is it avoids that lower level "one legged army" feel you get with some taiji trained guys. .
Quote:
if you don't move your hand and elbow or foot and knee together, wouldn't that create isolated movements?
Isolated movements? Anything but, It is a highly connected way to move. Perhaps the nature of your understanding of what you thought I meant -is in fact what leads to the isolated movement you are speaking of in the first place. Interesting isn't it? The type of energy I am talking about has many very devious effects on incoming and outgoing force, not the least of which is entering and striking while controlling, redirecting, and stopping force in ways many modern practitioners had previously not thought possible. Makes unwinding locks or preventing them alltogether rather fun as well, even when they are being applied in the more sophisticted non-localized locking, methods seen in higher level arts... cough! They simply fail to work without much thought
That said, without it being conditioned and working throughout the entire body...it is all for not.

Quote:
how would you able to keep power from entering your structure (maybe not understand this definition) if, say you get punch in the solar plex? unless you are meeting the power with another from inside?
You have a surface and a sub surface and deeper lines. Once conditioned they do some interesting things; among which-at least for me is not meeting force to force at any point.

Don't know how that helps, face to face, hand to hand, is better for this stuff. Even when debating with some very talented people, their knowledge of things is frequently quite different than their abilties in applied use.
Cheers
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2010, 01:52 AM   #32
bernardkwan
Dojo: Aikido Doyukai Hong Kong
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 35
Hong Kong
Offline
Re: Control in the martial arts.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
It can also leave you in that popular (and in my opinion ill advised) "one legged army" everything goes to one path to the ground feel. FWIW, it's anathema or counter productive to good Japanese weapons work as well.
I like the two feet working together to twine around the middle myself. Think of it like two paths to the ground, instead of one -always working around like a DNA model one foot to the other hand.

Dan
I found that the Chinese way of standing in hanmi (xingyi Santi) - with the front foot turned slightly inwards instead of pointing straight forward a good way of engaging the front foot and avoiding the "one legged army". One can generate a nice wrap-round sensation with the glutes, while standing like this.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2010, 07:39 AM   #33
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,757
United_States
Offline
Re: Control in the martial arts.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Don't know how that helps, face to face, hand to hand, is better for this stuff. Even when debating with some very talented people, their knowledge of things is frequently quite different than their abilties in applied use.
Cheers
Dan
thanks for giving me lots of things to think about. there is just no substitute for hand-on experience. if i have a chance to be in your neck of the wood, if you won't mind me pop in for some hand-on. my horizon is short and wouldn't mind expanding.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2010, 09:42 AM   #34
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 930
United_States
Offline
Re: Control in the martial arts.

I think these discussions are still useful - even though they pale next to getting "hands on" time. What it does is give you some different sets of imagery for presumably similar (though not the same) "stuffs" that you can kick around and then hopefully vet at some point with in-person follow-up. That's the real "control" - you "control" to what extent you get access and information - then you "control" how you train and test it.

As pretty much everyone keeps saying - go see what people are doing and then figure it out for yourself . . what isn't being said so much is that your ability to critically process the input, translate it into training plans, follow through on the training plans, critically analyze the process/progress, revise as necessary, test it out through as-objective-as-possible means, rinse, repeat with others, circle back and revisit and start again, and again . . over a long period of time . . will ultimately be reflected in what you can DO.

And that's the ironic part of "control in martial arts" is that it in theory empowers you to become more knowledgeable and skilled in applications. If you look at the Shu, Ha, Ri model, there's an implicit "giving up of control" as you seek to embody the form . . with the idea that eventually you will become or own the form and even when you break it, you'll still have the "properties" conditioned inside you.

Thing is, how many "schools" are actually putting people on the roadmmap to break the form? Whether it's the modern dojo running on membership or the older style disciple-ship (in person or via distance learning) . . is the roadmap still to train them up and kick 'em out or have people gotten fixed into the endless dissection of "the form" inside "the club"? I think the former encourages more of the curiosity and exploration that you need to excel, where the latter encourages more of the conformity to the group. I don't think they're mutually exclusive, but I know which way I lean.

What's been nice as the "internal strength" movement has gained traction, is that it's been somewhat "style agnostic" (forcibly so, even, since it's relegation to Non-Aikido, haha -- Sorry, Jun, friendly jab). I think for now, this is best - sure people can argue whether they have the best approach via Chinese sources, Japanese sources, individual innovation, whatever . . that's all to the good, in my opinion . .presumed that there's some agreed upon next steps to vet things in person and some agreed upon ways to get "buy-in" on how things get vetted.

(I don't necessarily agree that "just" lineage, or "just" who can kick who's ass will answer everything, or "just" what feats you can do - but wouldn't mind more discussions on that as I think it will force the shift towards clinical "how-to" analysis)

(oh another thing . . shhh - but there's something of a self-limiting factor in the transmission cycle where you're expected to "steal it", traditional or otherwise, figure it out, own it . . and I'm honestly thinking that's still part of the process even when you're given more explicit "how to's" . . a lot of the foundational stuff is less "technique" - regardless of the shape/container of expression - and more tricking your body into moving "differently" . . so there's an implied weeding out of those that don't figure it out and move beyond the "technique")

Dan, I like some of the descriptions you give for the two paths from the ground - in harmony versus competing and where the power generation can happen in those in between spaces and places - especially amplified while in motion. But while I think I have an idea of what you mean, I don't want to assume too much until there's some opportunity down the line to check in person (and please don't take that to mean in any way that I somehow think I'm entitled to that opportunity - I'm strictly hanging in the "if-then-maybe" spaces).

While I would immediately agree with "face to face, hand to hand, is better for this stuff" -- to your statement "don't know how that helps" I would also immediately respond that it helps to give reference to where overlaps may be in approach as well as discrepancies -- that can hopefully be -again- followed up on in person. And if it doesn't happen, no problem, there's other sources to check out, but it will remain flagged as an outstanding item in the "question/check/analyze/follow-up on" bag.

And absolutely also agreed to the point of "Even when debating with some very talented people, their knowledge of things is frequently quite different than their abilties in applied use" -- in tons of cases, regarding what people say they are doing, what they think they are doing and what they are actually doing - there's often disconnects or differing interpretations. I just think it's part of the overall IQ test of getting somewhere with this stuff - you have to be smart and disciplined to weave through all the morass and commit to doing the work to get somewhere.

I try to hold myself to a fairly low standard of "foot in the door and working on things while trying to get information". It's comfortable there and fits me well from a number of perspectives. What's not comfortable as much is moving into the next phases - which will be traveling to places to meet up with "big dogs" and then offering myself up to get pummelled while I do more of the "testing and vetting" work (likely in MMA, but also judo, bjj and *gulp* my least favorite, pure pugilism settings) . . that's difficult enough . . add on the family and job and and . . sheesh . . why did I think this was a good idea again?

Obession, compulsion, drive . . yeah . . there's likely a DSM-IV category (or several, Ellis??) . . oh well. .
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2010, 03:59 PM   #35
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Control in the martial arts.

Hi Budd
Actually I think the descriptions have little to no value. I have met very few I can have a physical discussion with. In the last few years, after reading, meeting and discussing these subjects with more and more senior teachers, and some others who are true professionals, I am left to wonder if it has always been this way.

I think your own opinions and evaluations of the value, quality, depth, method and outcome of various peoples methods or suggestions for training tips may change over time. I hope you go out and play with some serious ICMA, and JMA guys and get hands on...I did. It may help you form some rather interesting opinions about what potentials exists in what true professionals can and cannot do to you with their professional knowledge (lets forget the amateurs). I mean there has certainly been some interesting and challenging "talk" about the power of these so called " true professionals" I would suggest you find out what they have that you would ever be really interested in having and training for, and what's left that is actually awesome and useful in the real world.

In years to come I would be very interested in your views over what you have gotten from them, as well as your views about the martial veracity of some of things they consider powerful in what they do versus your own opinions (as a grappler).

As for meeting me again? Why bother. I hear tell in one circle that I'm just chump change. I continue to have some interesting and revelatory encounters of my own. I always say, "You got an opinion show it!" it tends to clear the air quite nicely between the internet wankers and the guys who actullay put in the work and can deliver. Each of us needs to make our own evaluations of these things as well.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-25-2010 at 04:14 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2010, 07:31 PM   #36
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 930
United_States
Offline
Re: Control in the martial arts.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Budd
Actually I think the descriptions have little to no value. I have met very few I can have a physical discussion with. In the last few years, after reading, meeting and discussing these subjects with more and more senior teachers, and some others who are true professionals, I am left to wonder if it has always been this way.
Agreed that it's likely always been this way - disagreed that there's no value. I think there's exactly as much value in that you get an indication if you want to take an engagement beyond exchanging text in an internet chat room/board.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think your own opinions and evaluations of the value, quality, depth, method and outcome of various peoples methods or suggestions for training tips may change over time. I hope you go out and play with some serious ICMA, and JMA guys and get hands on...I did.
That's the plan for the near future anyways - that and spending some time getting humbled in some gyms here and there.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
It may help you form some rather interesting opinions about what potentials exists in what true professionals can and cannot do to you with their professional knowledge (lets forget the amateurs). I mean there has certainly been some interesting and challenging "talk" about the power of these so called " true professionals" I would suggest you find out what they have that you would ever be really interested in having and training for, and what's left that is actually awesome and useful in the real world.
Man, I know it's a work in progress. A common joke to myself when I find something cool to work on over time is . . "Hmmm what will I be chasing this time next year" . . with the idea being to build upon skills rather than chasing after the next shiny toy in the budo queue.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
In years to come I would be very interested in your views over what you have gotten from them, as well as your views about the martial veracity of some of things they consider powerful in what they do versus your own opinions (as a grappler).
I'll be curious in general to see where the next few years go with regard to training "this stuff" as well as testing it out. Truthfully, have no clear plan in that regard other than to get more outside of my box.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2010, 09:03 AM   #37
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Control in the martial arts.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
thanks for giving me lots of things to think about. there is just no substitute for hand-on experience. if i have a chance to be in your neck of the wood, if you won't mind me pop in for some hand-on. my horizon is short and wouldn't mind expanding.
Quote:
Bud writes:
I don't want to assume too much until there's some opportunity down the line to check in person (and please don't take that to mean in any way that I somehow think I'm entitled to that opportunity
Sorry, been busy
Bud..OMG you can "assume and feel entitled" to hang out with us all the day long. You can show up anytime you want to as far as I am concerned. I had a blast last time. Gees are we getting formal now?

Phi
"If you get in my neck of the woods?"......I wouldn't bother. I think it would be a waste of both of our times.
1. I'm not interested in doing a dog and pony show, and it's too much investment/ work for me to be a flash in the pan for someone.
2. Meeting me for a class or a day, really isn't going to be much help for you to account for so mvh time and expense, bud.

If you (or anyone else) is intereted it's best to bug me/ write me/ yell at me/harrase me/ throw things at me...in P.M. Please be kind and remember I am not a profesional teacher, nor do I want to be. This is just fun for me and do what can...WHEN...I can. So, if you want to hang with us, that is just what it is...informal, hanging out with the guys....oops, and girls!

I have had a bit of a bumpy start, but I have managed to do six seminars sine last fall in support of my original "Teachers Only" seminar last year. They remain unadvertized and off the web. While they are geared mostly for teachers. I have made many exceptions in letting in various students to these get-togethers. I am doing one next week with several students in attendance who write me here in P.M. (it's already full). These things are usually already full before they start so it's best I know you are interested. I just think that two or three full days is a better way to go instead of a "one day thing."
Cheers
Dan

.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2010, 10:53 AM   #38
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 930
United_States
Offline
Re: Control in the martial arts.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Bud..OMG you can "assume and feel entitled" to hang out with us all the day long. You can show up anytime you want to as far as I am concerned. I had a blast last time. Gees are we getting formal now?
Sweeeeet . . hopefully sometime after this fall (presuming no issues with baby #2 and can buy/move into new house) I can work it out. There's another guy that recently moved up to your neck of the woods that trained a bunch of years at Itten that I think you'd like, also (he's a scrapper) that I want to keep in touch with as it's a pretty straight shot on 90 over. Oh and to mitigate my online formality I promise to yank yer chain all to heck in person . Much appreciated.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2010, 09:53 AM   #39
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Control in the martial arts.

Control in any art
I just had this entire discussion revisited and compacted at an MMA school. I will leave out how the conversation "came about."
We ran the gamut of
1. Power, to hit, kick and grab and control to assert your will.
2. Power, to change their aggression and direction of force and their means to control...you.

What captured everyone's attention was their needing to move in different ways, for #1 and #2 and transferring their weight to "launch" to either throw or hit. We broke it down and I showed them that they were able to "be read" whenever they did so and at the inception of the change in what they were going to do, they could be; up-ended, off-lined, or stuffed.
Then I showed them a way to move in a supported fashion that offered no transfer of weight that could be read as they moved, and additionally at the moment of change the body remained supported through and through. For several of the guys it was this consistency in control of yourself that controlled them that floored them-literally and figuratively- and became the tool they wanted to focus on. They felt comfortable enough in what they could deliver and dish out that they didn't care about technique, or punching and kicking at all that day. So we spent hours with the idea of "Balance, as a weapon."

So, by experience they instantly caught on to what shear balance and supported power could add to their own game for control and wanted to pursue it vigorously. They were stunned to have me tell them the best way to do it was by solo work; standing still and moving dead slow and in paired work, done dead slow as well. One guy actually thought I was having them on about it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2010, 12:40 PM   #40
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 930
United_States
Offline
Re: Control in the martial arts.

Dan, what's funny about that is that it seems logical that you need to condition the body a certain way, then drill applications based on your conditioning level (or that push you in ways that force you to improve), then apply the drills and conditioning in progressively more freestyle - especially in the MMA game . . but because it was a "different" way of moving and training to move . . you were met with some skepticism, not on the practical value of what you were showing - but on the best way to train it . .

I wonder if the next thing that will happen (just musing aloud) is that those that do work on it - if they aren't getting results the way they expect (or find that "building the body" requires them to "let go" of some other habits or wired proprioceptions) . . especially if they think there's disconnects in what they already "know"?

Anyhow, good stuff, thank you for sharing.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Off-The-Mat" Forum akiy "Off-The-Mat" 6 06-02-2008 12:22 AM
Zen and Martial Art (?!) Don_Modesto General 1 12-09-2003 02:25 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:24 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate