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Old 05-18-2010, 05:43 AM   #1
NTT
 
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YouTube: Noro sensei's jo kata

Here is to view rare video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsu7jCfALiM

Nguyen Thanh Thien
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Old 05-19-2010, 01:52 AM   #2
Hellis
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Re: YouTube: Noro sensei's jo kata

Philippe
Thank you very much for posting this rare video which I have now added to my own video channel " Aikido Ellis Video Channel "
http://aikidoellisvideo.magnify.net/ ... where I have many old films of Kenshiro Abbe Sensei ~ Masahilo Nakazono Sensei ~ Tadashi Abe Sensei and more.
Noro Sensei first came to the UK in 1961 ~ 2 ...where he taught at the famous birth place of British Aikido the ` Hut Dojo `. I had the pleasure of being on stage with him and Nakazono Sensei at the Royal Albert Hall London in 1963 when Kenshiro Abbe Sensei held the British Judo Council's ( BJC ) national championships to a packed house.
Noro Sensei was the first Aikido teacher we had ever seen wearing all white gi/hakama, you can see why we gave him the name " The White Tornado "..
Thanks again
Henry Ellis
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Old 05-20-2010, 11:08 AM   #3
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Re: YouTube: Noro sensei's jo kata

Hi Hellis,
I had a look at your video channel. It is good to see the practice of those years. I see the evolution and also how each master made his own point searching in his direction.
In those days, it seems that Judo was not that far from Aikido. Can you reflect on that?

Nguyen Thanh Thien
Walk the distance, keep the distance
Aikido Yuishinkai in France
Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu
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Old 05-20-2010, 12:12 PM   #4
Hellis
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Re: YouTube: Noro sensei's jo kata

In those early days of the 1950s ` all ` the Aikido teachers to visit Britain were high ranking Judoka, Kenshiro Abbe Sensei 8th dan Judo ~ 6th dan Aikido ~ Mutsharu Nakazono Sensei 6th dan Judo ~ 6th dan Aikido and many others such as Tadashi Abe Sensei and TK Chiba Shihan. I believe that being first a Judoka made their Aikido ` tighter ` with smaller less exaggerated movement. K Williams Sensei the first British student of Aikido to Abbe Sensei was a third dan Judoka, I too came from Judo. As we introduced / promoted Aikido around Gt Britain in many cases we would visit Judo Dojos. Yes, early Aikido was influenced by Judo, there was a big difference in teachers who came from a Judo background than the later ones who had only studied Aikido. I still prefer the early Traditional way.
Henry Ellis
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:42 AM   #5
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Re: YouTube: Noro sensei's jo kata

I have questions about the Koshi Nage.
I see that often it is done with uke going over tori's back. I see Tissier sensei moving back his leg so as to do a hip sweap, a kind of Koshi Barai. I also do a turning mouvement on one hip as I learned it from a student of Mochizuki Minoru. There is again a lowing down just before contact on an ascending mouvement. How were Koshi Nage in those days? How different or related to Judo hip throws?

Nguyen Thanh Thien
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Old 05-21-2010, 01:23 AM   #6
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Re: YouTube: Noro sensei's jo kata

I'm not a student of his but at a seminar once Shoji Nishio Sensei explained that he had had to develop some of the koshi nage techniques in aikido himself because most of the other students of O Sensei did not have a judo background. Those resulting techniques descended from judo would usually have a hip twist and that's the way a lot of the younger shihan do koshi nage.

The older aikido style of koshi nage was lowering the hips and rolling an off-balance uke approximately over the beltline - usually but not always raising the hips to throw. That's the way Arikawa Sensei did it and looking at old movies I think the way O Sensei did it.

Some of the hoplology experts probably know more. That's my personal experience.

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Old 05-21-2010, 02:51 AM   #7
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Re: YouTube: Noro sensei's jo kata

Yes I have seen and studied that way too. A good reminder! Thank you, I will put it back into practice.
Just to know, I see Noro sensei moving a lot in circular mouvements, going up and down. I am used to see kata in more linear directions. Do other masters go that far in circular "leg" work, ashi waza?
I also see low position but Now Noro sensei recommends high positions. I usually see that low on some points of the technique but not on the changing of positions. Hope I am clear enough!
I have been doing both and I apppreciate each way as they work out the body on different aspects. No preferences.

Nguyen Thanh Thien
Walk the distance, keep the distance
Aikido Yuishinkai in France
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Old 05-21-2010, 03:26 AM   #8
Hellis
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Re: YouTube: Noro sensei's jo kata

Hi
If you visit my " Ellis Aikido video Channel " http://aikidoellisvideo.magnify.net/
You will see that I have moved a short video of my old teacher Masahilo Nakazono Sensei to number one on page one, if you have not seen this before ? watch the last technique just as the movie finishes..
The Aikido of the early teachers ~ Kenshiro Abbe ~ M Nakazono ~ Tadashi Abbe was very positive, we were so surprised when Noro Sensei arrived with his more ``flamboyant `` graceful yet powerful Aikido...We then had problems as we had alternate visits from Nakazono Sensei and Noro Sensei. After a visit say from Noro Sensei we would practice hard what he had taught, when Nakazono arrived a couple of months later he would get angry and demand to know ``what are you doing ?`` and when Noro arrived he would ask the same,,,,,,,,,,Even in those early days Noro Sensei was very graceful so after his serious car crash and his development of his kinomichi soft style of Aikido movement came as no surprise to me.
There are many old photos on my British-Aikido site photo galleries.
Henry Ellis
www.british-aikido.com
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Old 05-21-2010, 07:03 AM   #9
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Re: YouTube: Noro sensei's jo kata

Thanks Henry - beautiful videos and great photos.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


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Old 05-21-2010, 08:35 AM   #10
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Re: YouTube: Noro sensei's jo kata

Thanks for the videos and photos.
I really appreciate the flow of the throw. One time, one move.
At 37'', he does a beautiful throw that reminds me of a te-waza in Judo. But what is it?

Nguyen Thanh Thien
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Old 05-21-2010, 10:03 AM   #11
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Re: YouTube: Noro sensei's jo kata

Did Noro sensei teach jo in those days and did Nakazono too? What kind of kata or else? Noro sensei now shows mainly Ikkyo, Shiho Nage, etc., with the Jo. No more kata is taught.

Nguyen Thanh Thien
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Old 05-21-2010, 10:37 AM   #12
Hellis
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Re: YouTube: Noro sensei's jo kata

Philippe
No there were no Jo Kata as such with either Nakazono Sensei or Noro Sensei just as you say various techniques were applied by the Jo..........
Re: the video of Nakazono Sensei.
I was not sure of the techniques name, I sent an email to Jei Nakazono who is Sensei's second son with whom I am in regular contact. Here is his reply to your question.
``` Henry,
That koshinage did not have an aikido name. Like you said, it was a judo application in aikido move.
The last one is what became the sumiotoshi in today's aikido, but then (1960s') it had no name.
Jei

As I said in an earlier post somewhere ? In the early days there were few names if any to the techniques.
I never remember Kenshiro Abbe using any technique names, simply taught by indication and the word ``necessary this `` ~ `` necessary that `` and a whack with the shinai to help with the language problem.

Henry Ellis
www.British-Aikido.com

Last edited by Hellis : 05-21-2010 at 10:39 AM.
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Old 05-30-2010, 12:49 AM   #13
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Re: YouTube: Noro sensei's jo kata

Henry
I thank you for sharing those memories. I have looked at the Ellis dojos websites and I have a few questions:
  1. You have a tree for all those who have been involved with British Aikido. I would like to know what you recieved from each master.
  2. As you pointed out, how did you manage to combine the gifts of each without ruining the unity of the teaching?
  3. I see you have number forms as there is in Noro sensei's art today (not quite the same order but quite close). Who set that way of doing?
  4. Noro sensei 's approach for beginners starts now quite slow and then moves to faster techniques without one being more important than the other. How was it in those days? Was everything fast or was there a mix of slow and fast?
  5. What did the Judo background give you that was not stressed in the work of those who had only Aikido background?
  6. As with Noro sensei's Jo kata, did you feel the necessity of kata and what do you think of a teaching without kata?
I hope these questions are not too many!!!

Nguyen Thanh Thien
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Old 05-30-2010, 03:49 AM   #14
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Re: YouTube: Noro sensei's jo kata

Mr. Ellis,
beautiful material in your video collection, thank you!
N
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Old 05-30-2010, 05:10 AM   #15
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Wink Re: YouTube: Noro sensei's jo kata

Quote:
Philippe Nguyen wrote: View Post
Henry
I thank you for sharing those memories. I have looked at the Ellis dojos websites and I have a few questions:
  1. You have a tree for all those who have been involved with British Aikido. I would like to know what you recieved from each master.

    I wrote the article " The Budo Masters " to tell of my experiences with all of the early Budo Masters that I had the privilege to meet and study with.
    http://www.british-aikido.com/articles/BudoMasters.htm
  2. As you pointed out, how did you manage to combine the gifts of each without ruining the unity of the teaching?

    In the beginning we had Kenshiro Abbe Sensei ~ a few visits from Tadashi Abe Sensei, but mainly Masahilo Nakazono Sensei and Noro Sensei, each of these teachers were different in style and attitude, Abbe - Abe - Nakazono were older, where as Noro Sensei at 25 was around the age of some of us early students.
    Having different teachers and styles meant we had to adapt, I find today that many students rigidly follow a pattern or style are are not prepared to adapt.

  3. I see you have number forms as there is in Noro sensei's art today (not quite the same order but quite close). Who set that way of doing?

    In the early days we did not have a `recognised` system of teaching, though we did follow a pattern. It was Noro Sensei who introduced the ``forms `` which we still use to this day.
  4. Noro sensei 's approach for beginners starts now quite slow and then moves to faster techniques without one being more important than the other. How was it in those days? Was everything fast or was there a mix of slow and fast?

    I cannot speak of Noro Sensei's teaching today, In the early days he was a very understanding teacher, he would take time to explain which we had not experienced before. He had a great sense of humour which we had never before found in a Japanese teacher.
    His technique was fast and powerful but above all else he was so graceful....

  5. What did the Judo background give you that was not stressed in the work of those who had only Aikido background?

    There is so much Aikido that I see today where uke is running around on the end of someones arm preparing for `take off ` ,,,,,The early teachers and students who had studied Judo liked to have their opponent close and under control..The techniques were more condensed.
  6. As with Noro sensei's Jo kata, did you feel the necessity of kata and what do you think of a teaching without kata?

To be honest I don't remember Noro Sensei doing too much Jo kata.
We do a Jo Kata that is what we remember from the teachings of Kenshiro Abbe Sensei, we are happy with that and meets our needs. We don't have any Aikido kata's.


I hope these questions are not too many!!!
Philippe I have answered your questions within your post in Italic's.

Nicholas
Thank you for your kind comment, appreciated.

Not too many questions lol.....I am pleased now that I wrote the article " The Budo Masters " otherwise that would take some time to answer.
Regards

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Last edited by Hellis : 05-30-2010 at 05:24 AM.
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Old 05-31-2010, 08:37 AM   #16
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Re: YouTube: Noro sensei's jo kata

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Philippe I have answered your questions within your post in Italic's.

Nicholas
Thank you for your kind comment, appreciated.

Not too many questions lol.....I am pleased now that I wrote the article " The Budo Masters " otherwise that would take some time to answer.
Regards

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
In respect of early Ken/Jo work the main influence in the U.K was Chiba Sensei.I met Kenshiro Abbe Sensei and I only saw him doing Body Art.
Later I saw both Noro Sensei and Tamura Sensei again each demonstrated body art.
In the 70s Chiba Sensei invited many Japanese instructors to the U.K.Among these were Yamaguchi Sense [ who sometimes used basic sword related movements to illustrate his body art.Another Sensei was Sekiya Sensei who was a master Kashima Shin Ryu swordmanship and also well versed in Naginata.
Sekiya Sensei spent quite some time in the U.K and he
was very popular .He had a wonderful soft, gentle yet powerful method of doing Aikido.
Later Chiba Sensei invited Saito Sensei to Britain and of course Saito Sensei demonstrated aspects of both Ken /Jo waza.
Each time I met these masters and others I was presented with different methods of doing our Art .On the one hand you had powerful Waza [Chiba Sensei /Kanai Sensei]and on the other hand you had a softer yet still powerful style from Kitaura Sensei, Sekiya Sensei, Yamaguchi Sensei.Large body movements like Yamada Sensei and very tight short movements from Tamura Sensei.
All in all it was very exciting and made you sharpen your eyes and be aware of things.
Nearly 30 years on I can still remember each class as if it were yesterday.
Overall I think that this mixture of soft /strong made a great impact on my own perception of Aikido.I realised that there is more than one way to skin a cat and with my own advanced years I have to find a method of getting maximum efficiency with minimal effort in my own Aikido.Still not quite got there [but stiil trying!!]
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Old 06-15-2010, 01:25 AM   #17
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Re: YouTube: Noro sensei's jo kata

Thank you for your post, Sakumeikan.

My questions is about the position of the stick and sword arts related to body art. In your teaching, the ones you recieved and those you gave, which were at the service of the other or are they independant, autonomous, ou else? Does weapons explain body or body explains weapons? Or ...
I have seen explanation of a movement saying that a sword does this so the movement should follow the way of the sword. On the other hand, the body which recieves the movement does it through a series of joint possibilities and one should follow the logic of the body's abilities.
Are those 2 ways of teaching as popular or is one more often chosen?
I even wonder if the aiming at weapon logic is "stronger" and body logic is softer.

I believe you all have different experiences and logic.

Nguyen Thanh Thien
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Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu
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