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Old 05-19-2010, 04:45 PM   #51
niall
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Re: Using less force on a smaller person w/o being patronizing

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
What if you do the technique 'right' in such a way that it doesn't require almost any force -- then you increase the force without changing how you're doing it -- wouldn't you then get a throw that is correct and crazily powerful? That's what it feels like to me, anyway, when some people (Sensei, sempais, etc) throw me...
No you get a throw that is less powerful. Try it then ask the uke. We have to lose power to become powerful. And the power we have to use is breath power not muscle power.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
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Old 05-19-2010, 07:39 PM   #52
Walter Martindale
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Re: Using less force on a smaller person w/o being patronizing

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Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
So I am not the only person with this problem. HAH! People think I am weird because I actually love to be thrown. I would rather be thrown then throw in all honesty. Much more fun.
One of those! Pursuit of Vertigo.. Back in the university days there was a bunch of theory about why people gravitate toward different sports. (I know, this isn't a sport).
There were 7 main groupings. Can't remember them all, but they included
Vertigo (I like to be disoriented or upside down, or... - seems like Ashley is one of those)
Ascetic (I suffer for my sport)
Athletic (I like the movement, I guess)
Aesthetic (my body is more beautiful through sport, or, the movements of the sport are beautiful - not sure which)
Spiritual (not sure if that was included)

and, well, I forget the rest. There has probably been a lot more work done in the area with people dreaming up all sorts of things about why we train, but that was the western stuff from the 70s.

Cheers,
W
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Old 05-19-2010, 07:46 PM   #53
Walter Martindale
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Re: Using less force on a smaller person w/o being patronizing

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Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
No you get a throw that is less powerful. Try it then ask the uke. We have to lose power to become powerful. And the power we have to use is breath power not muscle power.
Well, yes and no. It depends on the method. I used to get criticized for "finishing" my throws too hard - smashing uke to the mat. All I think I was doing was timing my release of the throw to the transfer of weight to the appropriate foot. Acceleration of body mass through the hand, rather than trying to fling someone around by hand.
When I transfer the weight first and then finish the throw, uke is not challenged as much to land well. (comes from the judo days, throw the guy a foot below the tatami, and then squeeze him a little deeper)
W
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Old 05-20-2010, 10:11 AM   #54
Basia Halliop
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Re: Using less force on a smaller person w/o being patronizing

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No you get a throw that is less powerful. Try it then ask the uke. We have to lose power to become powerful. And the power we have to use is breath power not muscle power.
That doesn't match with my experience so far.

Can you define 'breath power'? In such a way that it's something fundamentally different from muscle power?

Quote:
Well, yes and no. It depends on the method. I used to get criticized for "finishing" my throws too hard - smashing uke to the mat. All I think I was doing was timing my release of the throw to the transfer of weight to the appropriate foot. Acceleration of body mass through the hand, rather than trying to fling someone around by hand.
When I transfer the weight first and then finish the throw, uke is not challenged as much to land well. (comes from the judo days, throw the guy a foot below the tatami, and then squeeze him a little deeper)
Yeah, this makes sense to me. Definitely when I say 'using more force' I'm not talking about upper body...

Last edited by Basia Halliop : 05-20-2010 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 05-20-2010, 10:43 AM   #55
niall
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Re: Using less force on a smaller person w/o being patronizing

It's cool that Walter brought in judo. I've also done quite a lot of judo and it has always seemed to me to be much easier to explain in terms of physics than aikido.

By the way there's a lot of discussion about kokyu ryoku in the Yoshinkan and aiki thread (which for some reason was posted under Non-aikido martial traditions). There's some disagreement on the terminology. In the Aikikai line kokyu ryoku means breath power - and that means everything in aikido. O Sensei told my teacher he had to get it at all costs and that is what my teacher told me. In some of those other lines kokyu ryoku seemed to mean just a component of what they were apparently calling aiki. But the goal is perhaps the same.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14340

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


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Old 05-20-2010, 12:51 PM   #56
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Re: Using less force on a smaller person w/o being patronizing

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
One of those! Pursuit of Vertigo.. Back in the university days there was a bunch of theory about why people gravitate toward different sports. (I know, this isn't a sport).
There were 7 main groupings. Can't remember them all, but they included
Vertigo (I like to be disoriented or upside down, or... - seems like Ashley is one of those)
Ascetic (I suffer for my sport)
Athletic (I like the movement, I guess)
Aesthetic (my body is more beautiful through sport, or, the movements of the sport are beautiful - not sure which)
Spiritual (not sure if that was included)

and, well, I forget the rest. There has probably been a lot more work done in the area with people dreaming up all sorts of things about why we train, but that was the western stuff from the 70s.

Cheers,
W
Interesting. I would like to learn more. I honestly think I fit into several of those with the different sports I have or had done over the years. Thanks to you, I have something new to research.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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