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Old 05-19-2010, 02:45 PM   #1
Kwizxi
Dojo: Northampton Kai Shin Kai
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Omote, Ura...

Hi,

please excuse me if this is a totally ridiculous question.
Are the words Omote and Ura, the same as what I think of as Tenkan and Irimi?

Thanks in advance
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Old 05-19-2010, 03:12 PM   #2
cguzik
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Re: Omote, Ura...

Not really. Some people use them that way but it's not quite correct. For example, you can do yokomenuchi shihonage with an irimi entry and then continue with either the omote or ura variation of shihonage.

My understanding is that omote and ura typically refer to "in front" or "in back" variations of a waza, while irimi and tenkan refer to your movement relative to your partner. Sometimes they coincide but not always.

Edit: it's also worth noting that some would say that tenkan is (or should be) always preceded with irimi.

Last edited by cguzik : 05-19-2010 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 05-19-2010, 03:22 PM   #3
Mikemac
 
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Re: Omote, Ura...

This web page explains it very well.

http://www.budodojo.com/MovementsOfAikido.htm

Omote, Ura, Irimi, and Tenkan are four quadrants.....

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Old 05-19-2010, 03:22 PM   #4
Kwizxi
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Re: Omote, Ura...

makes sense, thanks.
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Old 05-19-2010, 03:39 PM   #5
akiy
 
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Re: Omote, Ura...

Hi Chrissy,

Here are a few AikiWeb threads on this subject which will probably provide you with more information that you really wanted to know about the distinctions among omote, ura, irimi, and tenkan:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11397
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9272
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7802

-- Jun

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Old 05-19-2010, 04:00 PM   #6
Kwizxi
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Re: Omote, Ura...

Thanks!
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Old 05-19-2010, 07:11 PM   #7
Shadowfax
 
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Re: Omote, Ura...

ugh and just when you get all that straight they will throw in Uchi and Soto to confuse things even more....
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Old 05-19-2010, 07:13 PM   #8
RED
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Re: Omote, Ura...

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
ugh and just when you get all that straight they will throw in Uchi and Soto to confuse things even more....
Kiten-nage: those terms confused me for like 3 months straight...no joke.

MM
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Old 05-19-2010, 08:10 PM   #9
Adam Huss
 
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Re: Omote, Ura...

Actually, I found that uchi and soto helped clear things up. I mean, when you first learning I suppose it just adds to the firehose of information being blasted down one's throat...but I didn't really pick up uchi and soto in regards to aikido until I had been training awhile. One thing I learned in Yoshinkan...at least my dojo...is there is a difference between tenkan and tenkai....AAA didn't make a difference on that account (at least not my AAA teachers).

Last instructor's meeting, one of the seniors looked up the kanji for tenkan and tenkai. One of the translations of tenkan, he found, was a conversion. One for tenkai translated to the idea of a rotation or revolution. This makes sense as, for us, tenkan is a shift...or conversion from one stance to the other without moving the balls of the feet....while tenkai is a pivot...using front foot as the pivot point with the rear leg following. I have the kanji, but can't figure out how to put them on here are they are on my hard drive and not from a link.

Last edited by Adam Huss : 05-19-2010 at 08:22 PM.

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Old 05-19-2010, 08:22 PM   #10
RED
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Re: Omote, Ura...

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
.is there is a difference between tenkan and tenkai....AAA didn't make a difference on that account (at least not my AAA teachers).
I don't know much about AAA...but Aikikai in general does distinguish between the two.

MM
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Old 05-19-2010, 08:26 PM   #11
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Re: Omote, Ura...

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
Kiten-nage: those terms confused me for like 3 months straight...no joke.
M,

What do you mean by the term 'Kiten-nage'?

v/r
A

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Old 05-19-2010, 08:40 PM   #12
Adam Huss
 
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Re: Omote, Ura...

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I don't know much about AAA...but Aikikai in general does distinguish between the two.
Oops, I meant there is a difference between the two in my Yoshinkan school, but not my aikikai school (which was AAA until around 2000.)

AAA was a huge organization until its kancho, Toyoda Fumio, passed away and many people split off in the following years (including us) and it has gotten smaller.

Toyoda Sensei was a student at Aikikai honbu, but went with Tohei Sensei when he split from honbu b/c Tohei was his first teacher and their family's were neighbors for something like 200 years. Then Toyoda Sensei split from Tohei Sensei and started the AAA.

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 05-20-2010, 04:10 AM   #13
Kwizxi
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Re: Omote, Ura...

Hehe, I like the fire hose analogy! I certainly keep finding myself reaching points, usually about an hour or an hour and a half into training, where my brain just feels full and wont accept any more information!
For now, the little revelation in my mind about Omote and Ura is enough to be pondering on I'm not even going to ask about Tankai...
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Old 05-20-2010, 11:26 AM   #14
RED
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Re: Omote, Ura...

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
Oops, I meant there is a difference between the two in my Yoshinkan school, but not my aikikai school (which was AAA until around 2000.)

AAA was a huge organization until its kancho, Toyoda Fumio, passed away and many people split off in the following years (including us) and it has gotten smaller.

Toyoda Sensei was a student at Aikikai honbu, but went with Tohei Sensei when he split from honbu b/c Tohei was his first teacher and their family's were neighbors for something like 200 years. Then Toyoda Sensei split from Tohei Sensei and started the AAA.
Ah, see I told you! See how little I know about the AAA lol

MM
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Old 05-20-2010, 11:28 AM   #15
RED
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Re: Omote, Ura...

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
M,

What do you mean by the term 'Kiten-nage'?

v/r
A
kaiten-nage typo, missed the "a".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4HHG-5eRMs

MM
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Old 05-20-2010, 08:03 PM   #16
Adam Huss
 
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Re: Omote, Ura...

Ah, kaiten nage. I thought that maybe you meant that but didn't want to assume in the event I would miss out on learning of a technique I hadn't heard of before. I have also notice the Aikikai and Yoshinkan kaiten nage are quite different (Yoshinkan is generally a crosstep throw for their most basic while my aikikai training was a pivot throw).

...I tried to related this to omote/ura, shomen/tenkan/tenkai, uchi sabaki/soto sabaki, but the post got to be waaay too long!

Last edited by Adam Huss : 05-20-2010 at 08:04 PM. Reason: add

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