Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-14-2010, 03:38 AM   #101
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,081
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Bernard Kwan wrote: View Post
Thomas

Thanks for the quote - it's very insightful - I had read about the emphasis on the big toe in Yoshinkan (but I had mistakenly taken it for the big toe in the front foot for stability.) I will have to experiment a little with this.

Bernard
The big toe is extremely important for balance and movement in the human anatomy.
It is well worth trying to understand how it is used in Yoshinkan Aikido.

David
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2010, 07:11 AM   #102
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,502
United_States
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
Haragei (Japanese: 腹芸, literally: belly art, or belly performance) is a Japanese word referring to the art of exuding one's personal energy, ki (Chinese qi) primarily from the hara, at base of the abdomen, three finger widths below and two finger widths behind the navel.

I don't understand your terminology, unless you were trying to be silly. I never heard of haragei defined as you put it.
Eric, I am often silly and pretty often wrong, but in this case, I'm not kidding and my ideas come from long study of Japanese culture. I don't think haragei is used at all as a martial arts term. I know of it only as a cultural mechanism.

The Japanese believe that all people are connected through the hara to all other people. The group and maintaining the group is far more important than any individual within the group and disagreements within a group are far more worrisome than any belief that the group's direction might be "wrong". What's "true" or "false," or "right" or "wrong" is often less important to that culture than how everyone in the group feels about an issue. So every individual in a group can say "yes," but in the end the entire group can say "no."

Therefore, whatever any one person says may or may not be true: tatemae is what they say in public, for the group, to keep harmony and preserve everyone's feelings of belonging and loyalty to the group. Honne is what they really believe. So they don't just have "true" and "false": they have a sort of "truly false," "falsely true" and "truly true," the latter being extremely difficult to discern for anyone not intimately connected to the group. And the way to really connect with the group is through one's own hara. So haragei (belly art) refers to the art of perceiving through the hara what people's (the group's) real meaning is. Someone who ignores the surface "right" and "wrong" and understands through the hara is called a "man of hara." He can listen to the various factions in a disagreement, "stomach" them, and come up with a solution that will satisfy the greatest majority of the group. Those who still disagree can either "stomach" their feelings about it and go along, or else leave the group.

Haragei is subtle attention to people's very subtle cues about what they really think or want. One example was a politician who, during the lead-up to WWII got up and spoke fervently in favor of going to war, but because he repeatedly blinked his eyes as he spoke, other politicians were able to understand that his real belief was exactly opposite what he said. Still, the group decided to go to war.

This kind of thing was much more effective before the war because of the relative lack of distractions. So many people were packed into such small space and spent most of their time interacting directly with people, all of whom were more frightened of disharmony among the closely-packed people than they were of not being "right".

Now, with computers, cars, movies, TV, and all that, haragei is a vanishing concept in Japan. The younger generation is far more apt to speak their true mind, but in a closely-bound group such as the monjin of a dojo, it can still play an important role.

FWIW

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2010, 08:24 AM   #103
Eric Joyce
Dojo: Budoshingikan
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 179
United_States
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Eric, I am often silly and pretty often wrong, but in this case, I'm not kidding and my ideas come from long study of Japanese culture. I don't think haragei is used at all as a martial arts term. I know of it only as a cultural mechanism.

The Japanese believe that all people are connected through the hara to all other people. The group and maintaining the group is far more important than any individual within the group and disagreements within a group are far more worrisome than any belief that the group's direction might be "wrong". What's "true" or "false," or "right" or "wrong" is often less important to that culture than how everyone in the group feels about an issue. So every individual in a group can say "yes," but in the end the entire group can say "no."

Therefore, whatever any one person says may or may not be true: tatemae is what they say in public, for the group, to keep harmony and preserve everyone's feelings of belonging and loyalty to the group. Honne is what they really believe. So they don't just have "true" and "false": they have a sort of "truly false," "falsely true" and "truly true," the latter being extremely difficult to discern for anyone not intimately connected to the group. And the way to really connect with the group is through one's own hara. So haragei (belly art) refers to the art of perceiving through the hara what people's (the group's) real meaning is. Someone who ignores the surface "right" and "wrong" and understands through the hara is called a "man of hara." He can listen to the various factions in a disagreement, "stomach" them, and come up with a solution that will satisfy the greatest majority of the group. Those who still disagree can either "stomach" their feelings about it and go along, or else leave the group.

Haragei is subtle attention to people's very subtle cues about what they really think or want. One example was a politician who, during the lead-up to WWII got up and spoke fervently in favor of going to war, but because he repeatedly blinked his eyes as he spoke, other politicians were able to understand that his real belief was exactly opposite what he said. Still, the group decided to go to war.

This kind of thing was much more effective before the war because of the relative lack of distractions. So many people were packed into such small space and spent most of their time interacting directly with people, all of whom were more frightened of disharmony among the closely-packed people than they were of not being "right".

Now, with computers, cars, movies, TV, and all that, haragei is a vanishing concept in Japan. The younger generation is far more apt to speak their true mind, but in a closely-bound group such as the monjin of a dojo, it can still play an important role.

FWIW

David
Wow, thanks David. You learn something new everyday. I appreciate your response.

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2010, 08:50 AM   #104
Eric Joyce
Dojo: Budoshingikan
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 179
United_States
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Bernard Kwan wrote: View Post
Thomas

Thanks for the quote - it's very insightful - I had read about the emphasis on the big toe in Yoshinkan (but I had mistakenly taken it for the big toe in the front foot for stability.) I will have to experiment a little with this.

Bernard
Hi Benard,

When I first started Yoshinkan Aikido, I thought the same thing. I was concentrating too much on the big toe of the front foot. My sensei corrected me and it made a big difference not only in my balance, but rooting with the back leg using the big toe and movement back and forth, especially in the hiriki no yosei ichi and ni.

I actually worked on the Yoshinkan kihon dosa last night and made a real conscious effort to understand what was going on inside my body (muscles being worked, balance and the use of the big toe). Just experimenting and trying to understand this stuff. I also tried one of the Aunkai Ten Chi Jin exercises just to try it out. It was tough but interesting enough to continue exploring. Self study and exploration can be challenging at times, but it can also be very rewarding.

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2010, 10:53 AM   #105
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,081
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Eric, I am often silly and pretty often wrong, but in this case, I'm not kidding and my ideas come from long study of Japanese culture. I don't think haragei is used at all as a martial arts term. I know of it only as a cultural mechanism.

The Japanese believe that all people are connected through the hara to all other people. The group and maintaining the group is far more important than any individual within the group and disagreements within a group are far more worrisome than any belief that the group's direction might be "wrong". What's "true" or "false," or "right" or "wrong" is often less important to that culture than how everyone in the group feels about an issue. So every individual in a group can say "yes," but in the end the entire group can say "no."

Therefore, whatever any one person says may or may not be true: tatemae is what they say in public, for the group, to keep harmony and preserve everyone's feelings of belonging and loyalty to the group. Honne is what they really believe. So they don't just have "true" and "false": they have a sort of "truly false," "falsely true" and "truly true," the latter being extremely difficult to discern for anyone not intimately connected to the group. And the way to really connect with the group is through one's own hara. So haragei (belly art) refers to the art of perceiving through the hara what people's (the group's) real meaning is. Someone who ignores the surface "right" and "wrong" and understands through the hara is called a "man of hara." He can listen to the various factions in a disagreement, "stomach" them, and come up with a solution that will satisfy the greatest majority of the group. Those who still disagree can either "stomach" their feelings about it and go along, or else leave the group.

Haragei is subtle attention to people's very subtle cues about what they really think or want. One example was a politician who, during the lead-up to WWII got up and spoke fervently in favor of going to war, but because he repeatedly blinked his eyes as he spoke, other politicians were able to understand that his real belief was exactly opposite what he said. Still, the group decided to go to war.

This kind of thing was much more effective before the war because of the relative lack of distractions. So many people were packed into such small space and spent most of their time interacting directly with people, all of whom were more frightened of disharmony among the closely-packed people than they were of not being "right".

Now, with computers, cars, movies, TV, and all that, haragei is a vanishing concept in Japan. The younger generation is far more apt to speak their true mind, but in a closely-bound group such as the monjin of a dojo, it can still play an important role.

FWIW

David
So you could say haragei means " gut feeling"?

David
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2010, 12:59 PM   #106
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,502
United_States
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
So you could say haragei means " gut feeling"?
It involves gut feelings, but elevated to an "art," haragei being "belly art," more or less. It also involves "broadcasting" one's own feelings to others and using your own hara to influence others, as Eric pointed out.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido Center of Miami - Join us for Micheline Tissier March 22 & 23, 2014 in Miami, FL



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sword work, internal skill, & "Aiki" Timothy WK Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 26 08-18-2007 08:51 PM
anyone heard of a MA called "aiki"? Anat Amitay Training 12 07-25-2004 09:41 PM
"Aiki" akiy Language 48 12-11-2002 12:32 AM
"AIKI", the movie Chris Li General 3 09-10-2002 05:10 PM
"Aiki" akiy Language 6 07-30-2001 03:09 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:45 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate