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Old 05-13-2010, 06:31 PM   #26
Mike Sigman
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Re: Interesting Video: San Shou Tuishou with Chen Ziqiang

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Absolute rubbish and baiting.
More off-topic personal attacks for the umpteenth time from Mike Sigman.

Dan
Er, Dan.... please.... my reputation is based largely upon not only actual ability, but the small, self-important people who designated themselves my enemies and I admit that I take advantage of those people (that the martial-arts is full of). Let's you and I try to engage in civil discourse and get around all those losers.

Kind Regards.

Mike
 
Old 05-13-2010, 06:57 PM   #27
Mike Sigman
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Re: Interesting Video: San Shou Tuishou with Chen Ziqiang

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
"Fooling around good naturedly" is understandable and fair, but it doesn't diminish your performance and ability to withstand pressure. The power differential is throughout and should enhance it. If you don't want to complete a throw you stop, it doesn't account for poor attempts and balance loss.
I continue to read dialogue "around" the topic, or the posters themselves without you offering anything substantial-good or bad- constructive or even informative about the movement shown and the martial veracity.

The other video I was talking about
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g4Jb...eature=related

Particularly 15 seconds in. The guy does a pretty amateurish entry and throw attempt but it is "good" enough to arm drag and force a postion change to retain central equilibrium in CZQ. IME, if this is "just play," or "fooling around" then the pressure and the power differential would be such that things like this just wouldn't happen.

Anyone want to state that
a) that was even a decent throw attempt?
b) that was a powerful defense?
While there are other good things to be sure, it is this inconsistency that is perplexing in such a low level encounter.

The other clip
http://bugu.cntv.cn/sports/other/wul...0/101111.shtml

From various people I have heard from in China, many of those venues are intentionally "set up" and are for entertainment purposes similar to our old boxing venues. I think it is clear the other guy was outclassed. The guy in the red doesn't even make an attempt to defend himself!! Watch him move in and drop his hands over and over. It does show CZQ using more substantial skills at speed, but against what though?
Oh well. I think there is a clear difference between him and say,-Chen Bing in a western venue.
Dan
I just realized that this 'other' video has got nothing to do with the first one in the O.P. In this 'other' video, we're looking not at a 'after the workshop grabass in the basement' but an actual workshop where CZQ is trying to teach a point. Are you really suggesting that every point an instructor is trying to make should be "The Real Thing" (TM)? This is verging on insanity or at least the world of the very young. How about if I go to a DR workshop and only do "The Real Thing" in every attack? Trust me, it would disrupt the whole learning process. Jeez.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 05-13-2010, 07:23 PM   #28
stan baker
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Re: Interesting Video: San Shou Tuishou with Chen Ziqiang

Mike
I think chen ziqiang interaction is some of the best taiji out there on video. What Dan is talking about is a higher level of expertise, which I have seen and experienced personally from Wang Hai Jun and Dan.
You have not so you do not know.

stan
 
Old 05-13-2010, 07:28 PM   #29
DH
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Re: Interesting Video: San Shou Tuishou with Chen Ziqiang

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I just realized that this 'other' video has got nothing to do with the first one in the O.P. In this 'other' video, we're looking not at a 'after the workshop grabass in the basement' but an actual workshop where CZQ is trying to teach a point. Are you really suggesting that every point an instructor is trying to make should be "The Real Thing" (TM)? This is verging on insanity or at least the world of the very young. How about if I go to a DR workshop and only do "The Real Thing" in every attack? Trust me, it would disrupt the whole learning process. Jeez.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
What?
In the other video, I am discussing the throw attempt and movement in various places-including- and in particular- .015 to .017

There is no meaning to the argument about real or not real. I also see no reason for all the commentary and slithered-in insults about insanity and youth, which is why I wrote this.
Quote:
I continue to read dialogue "around" the topic, or of the posters themselves without you offering anything substantial-good or bad- constructive or even informative about the movement shown and the martial veracity.
Address the points- not the people.
If you're not interested in discussing the topic just say so, there is no need to pretend.
So, demo or no, play or no, why does he lose ground so often and how? Demos are far easier than real.
If you don't know or can't answer...fine.
If you have a clue but will not answer...well. That speaks for itself.

Quote:
Let's you and I try to engage in civil discourse and get around all those losers
That's simply uncalled for.
You are the only person here- NOT -engaging in civil discourse. I can't address why or where the "enemy" comment is relavant in any way.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-13-2010 at 07:41 PM.
 
Old 05-13-2010, 07:39 PM   #30
Mike Sigman
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Re: Interesting Video: San Shou Tuishou with Chen Ziqiang

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Mike
I think chen ziqiang interaction is some of the best taiji out there on video. What Dan is talking about is a higher level of expertise, which I have seen and experienced personally from Wang Hai Jun and Dan.
You have not so you do not know.

stan
Thanks for the technical comments about how things are done, Stan. See my post #26.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 05-13-2010, 07:51 PM   #31
Mike Sigman
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Re: Interesting Video: San Shou Tuishou with Chen Ziqiang

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
What?
In the other video, I am discussing the throw attempt and movement in various places-including- and in particular- .015 to .017
So a demonstration at a workshop in which an arbitrary opponent makes a move for demonstration purposes is part of your critique? OK, I can accept that from you.
Quote:
There is no meaning to the argument about real or not real.
I see.
Quote:
Address the points- not the people.
If you're not interested in discussing the topic just say so, there is no need to pretend.
Wait a minute... you disparage people using your subjective viewpoint and now you want objective discourse after you slammed someone at a basement grabass? I'm confused.
Quote:
So, demo or no, play or no, why does he lose ground so often and how? Demos are far easier than real.
I dunno, Dan.... you tell me. If a real professional is dealing with a bunch of amateurs should he carefully handle them or break bones? Good question.
Quote:
If you don't know or can't answer...fine.
If you have a clue but will not answer...well. That speaks for itself.
Oh goodness... it seems like there is yet another person who is just not up to the godlike position of Dan the Reincarnated Chinese Overlord. Oh well... there are so many of us, maybe I can get lost in the crowd.
Quote:
That's simply uncalled for.
You are the only person here- NOT -engaging in civil discourse. I Can't address why or where the "enemy" comment is relavant in any way.
Dan
Whoa.... hold on. I'm not the person who has trivialized everyone from Ueshiba, Shioda, WHJ, etc., for the last years. I think I've asked some pretty factual questions and, if you'll look, my initial comment had to do with why you denigrated a known national Chinese champion as not being up to par with you, even though the video was only about a basement grabass. Try not to throw me under the bus because I see what a number of other people have already rolled their eyes about. Try a graceful exit and pretend that people like Stan don't have a harsh effect on your reputation in re "senior Chinese IMA teachers who adore you" (for the moment).

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 05-13-2010, 08:20 PM   #32
Mike Sigman
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Re: Interesting Video: San Shou Tuishou with Chen Ziqiang

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
as usual you do not know what you are talking about regarding Wan Hai Jun and Dan Harden. Go see for your self, get off the chair and experience Dan.
Stan, how about starting another thread and explain what it is that WHJ and Dan are doing so that all the poor sufferers will understand? I think it would be a good thread for you to explain how you just couldn't get the Truth (tm) for so many years until you met WHJ and then, at one of WHJ's workshops, Dan attended and impressed you. (Hmmmm.... didn't Herb Rich make some telling comments about that workshop, since he was the one who hosted it?).

But any way, any enlightenment from you would be helpful. Another thread, please?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 05-13-2010, 08:26 PM   #33
DH
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Re: Interesting Video: San Shou Tuishou with Chen Ziqiang

I continue to read dialogue "around" the topic, or insulting posters themselves without you offering anything substantial-good or bad- constructive or even informative about the movement shown and the martial veracity. If the subject of actual fighting skill instead of solo demo's is past your comfort zone (I know it isn't your interest) just say so? It is for many martial artists, no harm, no foul.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
So a demonstration at a workshop in which an arbitrary opponent makes a move for demonstration purposes is part of your critique? OK, I can accept that from you.
I see several very welcomed attempts at throws
What you "see" as cheap shots is not what is going on.
I will mark the added insult to my character from you yet again.

Quote:
I see. Wait a minute... you disparage people using your subjective viewpoint and now you want objective discourse after you slammed someone at a basement grabass?
I'm confused.
Yes...you are.

Quote:
I dunno, Dan.... you tell me. If a real professional is dealing with a bunch of amateurs should he carefully handle them or break bones? Good question.
I see clear throw attempts made and only throw attempts. I do this with strikes and kicks ad throw attempts-all done in a hold back mode. There is occasional cuts here and there but no real harm. There are any number of grappling venues where you can see this on a regular basis. A 'real" profesional should have no trouble handling themselves in casual sparring. If you can't see that...well, it is my experience that many traditional artists don't understand that give and take either. That might explain why you can't tell the difference in what is going on in these videos of casual sparring.

Quote:
Oh goodness... it seems like there is yet another person who is just not up to the godlike position of Dan the Reincarnated Chinese Overlord. Oh well... there are so many of us, maybe I can get lost in the crowd.
I think if you had spent time winning and losing and tapping out and being tapped out you would not apply as much weight to winning and losing. Winning just doesn't have the type of ego attachment to it that most TMA apply. You could lose again in the very same day. Most grapplers and people who really have fought understand this. It's just another day at the office.
I think of your comments and insults toward me like the desk sergeant not understanding those who have gotten their boots dirty.

<Snip trival noise>
Quote:
if you'll look, my initial comment had to do with why you denigrated a known national Chinese champion as not being up to par with you.
Par with me? I have nothing to do with it. What about my mentioning him in context with other chen guys? No comment?

<Snip trivial noise>

Mike
1. Address the points- not the people. You have not offered a single meaningful comment about movement and interchange. I am beginning to doubt you really can in these venues.
2. Why does he lose ground so often and how? Demos are far easier than real.
3. If you don't know or can't answer...fine.
4.If you have a clue but will not answer...well. That speaks for itself.

If you're not interested in discussing the topic just say so, there is no need to pretend and resorting to insulting people.

I will note the various insults and invectives you continually spew for no reason when the topic of actual fighting and use of these skills comes up.
Good luck in your training
Dan
 
Old 05-13-2010, 08:36 PM   #34
DH
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Re: Interesting Video: San Shou Tuishou with Chen Ziqiang

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Stan, how about starting another thread and explain what it is that WHJ and Dan are doing so that all the poor sufferers will understand? I think it would be a good thread for you to explain how you just couldn't get the Truth (tm) for so many years until you met WHJ and then, at one of WHJ's workshops, Dan attended and impressed you. (Hmmmm.... didn't Herb Rich make some telling comments about that workshop, since he was the one who hosted it?).

But any way, any enlightenment from you would be helpful. Another thread, please?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
When Greg brought up that he trained with Tohei and answered a question..you started being sarcastic and calling him "an expert".
When David talked about his own perosonal experiences you said "well you're the expert."
When Josh apologized for something he said and wrote you- you said "No more need to wrtie-you're done"
Now Stan, who has always said he is low level, but has gone out to feel various "real experts" says something- he gets"why don't you tell me you're the expert"
I comment on movement and you attack me..as an "expert and Chinese overlord"
I've lost track of so many others...

What is the nature of this truly bizzare behaviour in attacking people left and right? None of whom claim any expertise and openly and repeatedly deny it? How does personal attacks and vitriol add to a discussion or have a place on aikiweb?

Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-13-2010 at 08:42 PM.
 
Old 05-13-2010, 08:52 PM   #35
Mike Sigman
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Re: Interesting Video: San Shou Tuishou with Chen Ziqiang

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I continue to read dialogue "around" the topic,
Dan, the topic I pointed to was you tearing down, yet again for the umpteenth time, some martial artist as someone who doesn't understand the "Real Stuff" (tm) as well as you do. Let's don't try to pretend that this was a serious appraisal on your part of a basement grabass push-hands fest and that I'm supposed to also pretend that it meant anything. It didn't. The point was your gratuitous tear-down of yet one more martial-artist, for whatever reason you constantly do it.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 05-13-2010, 08:59 PM   #36
Mike Sigman
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Re: Interesting Video: San Shou Tuishou with Chen Ziqiang

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
What is the nature of this truly bizzare behaviour in attacking people left and right?
Hmmmmm... here's what Stan said, Dan:
Quote:
What Dan is talking about is a higher level of expertise, which I have seen and experienced personally from Wang Hai Jun and Dan.
I just invited him to explain his views on this subtle expertise on another thread. Why don't you join him?

One of the repeated nonsensical comments you see on martial-arts forums is someone with limited skills trying to tell others how exalted (or horrible) someone else's skills are. If Stan, after all these years, is as "low level" as you seem to unquestionably agree with, how is he in a position (after so many years and so many teachers) in a position to accurately say who is and who isn't any good? Obviously he can't be very astute if he's got all those years behind him and no real expertise to show for it, right?

I've even heard amateurs at WHJ workshops wonder aloud at how Stan goes around "correcting" people while WHJ is in another part of the room doing corrections when Stan obviously has never really practiced seriously. Sounds like a topic worth a discussion. On another thread or another forum. He obviously thinks you're good, BTW.... good for you.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 05-13-2010, 09:16 PM   #37
DH
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Re: Interesting Video: San Shou Tuishou with Chen Ziqiang

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Dan, the topic I pointed to was you tearing down, yet again for the umpteenth time, some martial artist as someone who doesn't understand the "Real Stuff" (tm) as well as you do.
As well as me? Site? Again what about Chen Bing? Still no answer?
Quote:
Let's don't try to pretend that this was a serious appraisal on your part of a basement grabass push-hands fest and that I'm supposed to also pretend that it meant anything. It didn't. The point was your gratuitous tear-down of yet one more martial-artist, for whatever reason you constantly do it.
It was a serious apprasial and questioning that you obviously cannot answer-hence your picking that entertainment show with the way out of balance match up as a defence.
That you cannot see that either...well....
As for discussions-you really have a very selective memory, pick some, while ignoring many others that have been discussed favorably here. It's hard to argue with a moving target with no substantial claim or interest in the thread.
I take it you really can't respond intelligently to the thread -hence the personal attacks on Stan. Noted that you ignored all the others you attacked a few days back on another thread. Anyone that gets in your sites and you have at em on a personal level.
What a way to live.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-13-2010 at 09:21 PM.
 
Old 05-13-2010, 09:32 PM   #38
Mike Sigman
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Re: Interesting Video: San Shou Tuishou with Chen Ziqiang

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
It was a serious apprasial
May I quote you?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 05-13-2010, 09:33 PM   #39
DH
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Re: Interesting Video: San Shou Tuishou with Chen Ziqiang

For those capable grapplers calling me and writing me that they see the same things I do in those vids-including the obviously overmatched one from China that Mike is all ga ga over where the kid is litterally throwing himself at CZQ with his hands down... what good does it do to stay quiet?
At least there are those who actually have grappled and get this stuff in all its stages from demo to sparring to full-on, that they can be a voice of reason in the Traditional Martial Arts world.

Dan
 
Old 05-13-2010, 09:41 PM   #40
Mike Sigman
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Re: Interesting Video: San Shou Tuishou with Chen Ziqiang

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
For those capable grapplers calling me and writing me that they see the same things I do in those vids-including the obviously overmatched one from China that Mike is all ga ga over where the kid is litterally throwing himself at CZQ with his hands down... what good does it do to stay quiet?
At least there are those who actually have grappled and get this stuff in all its stages from demo to sparring to full-on, that they can be a voice of reason in the Traditional Martial Arts world.
Omigod... I'm defeated again by the Dan Ghost Peanut Gallery of Supporters who are all calling and emailing Dan on the side. It's an impossible battle. Ask just a few of them to write their observations (including I.S. skills, which undoubtedly the "Strong Men" have aplenty) out in the public so we can enjoy their expert insights and learn from their experiences.

Regards,

Mike "Ghost Fighter" Sigman
 
Old 05-13-2010, 10:16 PM   #41
DH
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Re: Interesting Video: San Shou Tuishou with Chen Ziqiang

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Omigod... I'm defeated again by the Dan Ghost Peanut Gallery of Supporters who are all calling and emailing Dan on the side. It's an impossible battle. Ask just a few of them to write their observations (including I.S. skills, which undoubtedly the "Strong Men" have aplenty) out in the public so we can enjoy their expert insights and learn from their experiences.

Regards,

Mike "Ghost Fighter" Sigman
Supporters? Hardly. And why would that have to be? You put the video up and people watched it. Why is a discussion among people who happen to disagree with you have to mean ugly things about....them? Three of these guys I only know from here.

Is that how it works with you? Anyone who disagrees with you is an enemy (like you stated in a post) and means they're bad?
How curious.
Dan
 
Old 05-13-2010, 10:29 PM   #42
stan baker
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Re: Interesting Video: San Shou Tuishou with Chen Ziqiang

Mike
I can correct taiji postures quite well, come by and I will correct yours.
I am getting better instruction and practicing taiji more seriously then
you are.

stan
 
Old 05-13-2010, 10:42 PM   #43
AllanF
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Re: Interesting Video: San Shou Tuishou with Chen Ziqiang

FWIW: Chen Ziqiang is pronounced Chen dzi chee-ang ('Chee' of cheese and 'ang' as in hang).
 
Old 05-14-2010, 12:36 AM   #44
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Re: Interesting Video: San Shou Tuishou with Chen Ziqiang

Thread closed due to obvious reasons.

-- Jun

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