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Old 04-21-2010, 03:41 PM   #51
Allen Beebe
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

I'll third George's post adding to it:

a) I was taught this explicitly. [As mentioned in another post somewhere and sometime ago, when Takeda and Ueshiba taught L.E. and Military personnel are we to assume, despite all evidence to the contrary, they taught "grab my wrist" waza?]

b) If one does precisely the same thing when attacked as when "attacking," there are some implications here. Whatever one has a proclivity for screwing up when "defending" one will, in all likelihood, screw up when "attacking." This is because, with Aiki (and the worms crawl out of the can . . . ) there is no defense/attack there is only Aiki . . .

c) Why teach one sidedly then? Well, first of all, I think this wasn't always the case on the whole. Secondly, I suspect it is the easiest (least screw-up-able) way to learn Aiki. (i.e. it is easier to learn by being pushed then to push . . . but somebody's got to push . . . one may as well learn how to push while learning to recieve. But I think the learning curve is faster on the receiving end. Once one develops an understanding and ability, one experiences no difference (or in my puny case, less of a difference.) The same thing is happening, within one's self, either way so why not emphasize (initially) that which seems to produce the desired result (Aiki) the quickest? And, if the end result lends itself to being interfaced conveniently with a particular moral paradigm, cool! (Although one ought to be careful about erroneously asserting a causal relationship to that interface if one wishes for reproducible results.)

Anyway, "a" was taught to me. "b" is a logical outcome of if a = b, then b = a reasoning. And "c" is my guess based on circumstantial evidence and a smattering of experience.

In case one hadn't noticed I wasn't talking about waza although I was taught that what was stated holds true for that as well.

FWIW,
Allen

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 04-23-2010, 03:50 PM   #52
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

My not particularly valuable guess on this subject is that, if you look for an effective way to take the initiative of attacking, then you shouldn't look for Aikido too.

I elsewhere advocated, with mixed results at best, that I do expect a martial art to work unceasingly, since day one, for the confrontation with the real struggle.

However, the responsibility of starting such a struggle ought never to rest on the shoulders of an aikidoka. This not because we want to be good doves in a world of wolves, but simply because if what you want is the attack, then aikido is outplaced being quintessentially defense (that this substance may lead or not to cultivating an utterly unrealistic attitude towards what a real fight may look like, is another story).

To be sure, no moral judgement is implied here. Only, if you want to attack, most likely you wouldn't be looking for Aikido in the first place.
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Old 04-23-2010, 05:47 PM   #53
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Alberto, understand what you are saying, but I think it imposes an artificial limitation and a morale presumption of what right and wrong should or could be.

I think the Zen Koan "Stop Harm, Do no Harm" is very applicable to the art of aikido.

I mean how to you accomplish this? It may require you to take agressive and destructive measures in order for a greater good to be realized.

Of course we could argue all day long about the justification of such actions an the morality/ethics of the actions in specific cases.

However, I think though that it is not so important that we make a choice to use violence, but that we do so with as clear of mind as we can, in the most unemotional manner, using as much skill as we have to minimize damage if possible, and we do so with compassion and not anger.

For me at least, this is what I want out of my aikido...NOT an over simplification of morality that relegates me to be a passive only.

I think there are alot of good practices and models to draw from. Ghandi is a great one.

However I don't believe that Ghandi was a Budoka nor he ever intended to be one. Non-violence is certainly a worthwhile goal, and one I would love to see in the world.

I think Budoka have (or should) understand clearly the path they have chosen and understand that in doing so, they have signed up for an obligation to use what skill they have in a manner that helps others...whatever that may be.

I think there is too much revisionism in budo to try and turn it into something other than what it is, and that is both sad and dangerous IMO.

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Old 04-23-2010, 09:09 PM   #54
RED
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

I don't believe Aikido is passive. I don't even think it is strictly defensive. It takes a very real stance on what it thinks about violence and malice. And the stance it takes on violence is not a passive one. I don't think Aikidoka was intended to be pacifists.

From an ideological stance, when some one takes a strong opinion of something either way, there is no room for pacifist mentality.

I think the opinion of Aikido is that malice is intolerable. Aikido doesn't defend against fights, nor does Aikidoka train to win fights, or even prevent or end fights.IMO Aikido does not tolerate the existence of fights periods. Ideologically, it strives to identify what is out of ballance and through its intolerance of that malice, bring it back into ballance.

MM
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Old 05-02-2010, 02:32 AM   #55
Jon Marshall
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

The first paragraph of what George said. That's what I has hoping to hear from a senior aikidoka.

Thanks George,
Jon
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Old 05-02-2010, 08:09 AM   #56
niall
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Ki Symbol Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Quote:
John Matsushima wrote: View Post
How do you blend with a person who is not attacking? As to my understanding, one blends with an attacker's energy and redirects that energy .
I agree with John. There is a lot of stuff being written in this thread by people who are talking theoretically about stylized training - not practical applications. If there is no energy there is no aikido because there is no ai and there is no ki. If you do an atemi (= attack someone!) and they throw up their hands in self-defence or run away you might be able to do something - but it wouldn't be aikido. And attacking someone who is not posing a threat wouldn't be aikido either - it would be completely alien to the philosophy of aikido. And has anyone ever seen a top teacher do that - attack someone? So the honest answer to the original question is no - there are no offensive moves in aikido.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
If the person doesn't attack him, he shouldn't need to defend himself. As far as I know guards don't just beat up on prisoners not trying to harm them.
But Don is right (and Alberto is right too)! So aikido is OK after all...

Last edited by niall : 05-02-2010 at 08:19 AM.

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Old 05-02-2010, 09:48 AM   #57
Anjisan
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Ai symbol Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
I agree with John. There is a lot of stuff being written in this thread by people who are talking theoretically about stylized training - not practical applications. If there is no energy there is no aikido because there is no ai and there is no ki. If you do an atemi (= attack someone!) and they throw up their hands in self-defence or run away you might be able to do something - but it wouldn't be aikido. And attacking someone who is not posing a threat wouldn't be aikido either - it would be completely alien to the philosophy of aikido. And has anyone ever seen a top teacher do that - attack someone? So the honest answer to the original question is no - there are no offensive moves in aikido.

But Don is right (and Alberto is right too)! So aikido is OK after all...
It really does depend on the situation. If one can sense the malice intent, but that intent has not been formulated into an "attack", it may be tactically sound to draw out that attack. This can be accomplished by leaning forward--Osensei was known to do this-- or like some Aikido styles either actually strike or feint a strike. If it is not feasible to just leave the situation it does not strike me as sound to simply stand there and wait for them to attack on their terms or just ignore them and go about one's business.
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Old 05-02-2010, 11:01 AM   #58
niall
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Deliberately leaving or creating an opening (suki) to encourage an attack is normal in high level aikido. Attacking someone who isn't a threat isn't. But I take Jason's point about what to do in a dangerous situation - it might be best to do something.

I was just looking for a definition of sen no sen (initiating) budo and go no sen (reacting) budo and sen sen no sen and saki no saki and I found this interesting article. O Sensei clearly says there is no attack in aikido here but the article goes on to describe some of the strikes mentioned by previous posters. So maybe we're both right. But there is still the question of energy. If you attack with a tsuki and the bad guy (I can't call him uke because you've become the uke!) just retreats instead of making the stylized aikido response what do you do? And gripping someone is even more dangerous - then you might really become the uke.

http://www.aiki-shuren-dojo.com/pdf/Go%20no%20sen.pdf

Last edited by niall : 05-02-2010 at 11:08 AM.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
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Old 05-12-2010, 12:04 PM   #59
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Quote:
Jeffery Whitney wrote: View Post
Are there any offinsive move in Aikido my friend works in the county jail and a deputy and he wants to learn aikido but some times in his line of work he needs to be offinsive not just deffinsive so would it benifit him or no?
Either curse at or insult your opponent first, then it all flows.

Joking
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Old 05-12-2010, 12:22 PM   #60
Mark Peckett
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

I think Gandhi was a great budoka, and he really took his attackers' energy and turned it against them. The Satyagraha (loosely translates as "truth-force", literally "satya"="truth"; "graha"="asking for", which is what I like to think I'm doing every time I get on the mat) campaign was directed against a British tax on producing salt. Gandhi walked across India, gathering more and more followers on the way and in the end was arrested by the British authorities. This turning of one's attacker's force (in this case, a blatantly unfair and ridiculous law designed simply to oppress) against the attacker by forcing them to imprison him and look ridiculous themselves in the eyes of the world, is to me a pure example of aikido in a wider context. And it won a whole sub-continent its freedom from foreign rule - which over 200 years of violent opposition failed to do.

I know it might be disappointing to those who want to learn an art that gives one the techniques for subduing our attackers violently, but if aikido isn't about changing our minds and our hearts, and after that, the world, then why not carry a big stick, a knife or a gun?

Last edited by Mark Peckett : 05-12-2010 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 05-12-2010, 12:57 PM   #61
RED
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

here's some very offensive Aikido:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sp74JdZ44U

MM
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Old 05-12-2010, 04:20 PM   #62
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
Deliberately leaving or creating an opening (suki) to encourage an attack is normal in high level aikido. Attacking someone who isn't a threat isn't. But I take Jason's point about what to do in a dangerous situation - it might be best to do something.

I was just looking for a definition of sen no sen (initiating) budo and go no sen (reacting) budo and sen sen no sen and saki no saki and I found this interesting article. O Sensei clearly says there is no attack in aikido here but the article goes on to describe some of the strikes mentioned by previous posters. So maybe we're both right. But there is still the question of energy. If you attack with a tsuki and the bad guy (I can't call him uke because you've become the uke!) just retreats instead of making the stylized aikido response what do you do? And gripping someone is even more dangerous - then you might really become the uke.

http://www.aiki-shuren-dojo.com/pdf/Go%20no%20sen.pdf
This is a nice descriptive article on the issue of "timing". I think that O-Sensei's statement about there being no "attack" in Aikido is often misunderstood. Once again, it ends up carrying a lot of moral / ethical baggage which I think distracts from an understanding of what I believe he really meant.

If you really want to understand what O-Sensei was saying here (my opinion, of course) you need to add the balancing statement that there is absolutely no "defense" in Aikido.

In other words, there is no attack or defense in Aikido. Discussions of "timing", regardless of which particular timing we are discussing, are necessarily relative. The very notion of "timing" contains the elements of something happening at a time relative to something else happening at another time or even the same time. But the whole notion is dualistic to begin with.

O-Sensei's fundamental mode of perception was non-dualistic. If one exists in the state of "aiki", as in "take musu aiki", there is no timing because there is no separation between the attacker and defender. In fact they simply do not exist as separate entities. In that state of consciousness, it is impossible for an attacker to move separately from a defender and therefore, any violent encounter is over in the instant an attack is even conceived.

I use an Aikido "Koan" with my students when we talk about this. It say "what happens to all notions of timing when you introduce the notion of already?". I think that this is what O-Sensei meant.

That said, until we are advanced enough to perceive reality in the present instant, we are stuck in the dualistic world and understanding issues of timing, as described in the article, will only enhance ones Aikido.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 05-12-2010, 07:56 PM   #63
guillermo santos
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Talking Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Quote:
Jeffery Whitney wrote: View Post
Are there any offinsive move in Aikido my friend works in the county jail and a deputy and he wants to learn aikido but some times in his line of work he needs to be offinsive not just deffinsive so would it benifit him or no?
If the AIKI doesn't work use KIAI !! the opposite!!!
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Old 05-13-2010, 08:51 AM   #64
sakumeikan
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
This is a nice descriptive article on the issue of "timing". I think that O-Sensei's statement about there being no "attack" in Aikido is often misunderstood. Once again, it ends up carrying a lot of moral / ethical baggage which I think distracts from an understanding of what I believe he really meant.

If you really want to understand what O-Sensei was saying here (my opinion, of course) you need to add the balancing statement that there is absolutely no "defense" in Aikido.

In other words, there is no attack or defense in Aikido. Discussions of "timing", regardless of which particular timing we are discussing, are necessarily relative. The very notion of "timing" contains the elements of something happening at a time relative to something else happening at another time or even the same time. But the whole notion is dualistic to begin with.

O-Sensei's fundamental mode of perception was non-dualistic. If one exists in the state of "aiki", as in "take musu aiki", there is no timing because there is no separation between the attacker and defender. In fact they simply do not exist as separate entities. In that state of consciousness, it is impossible for an attacker to move separately from a defender and therefore, any violent encounter is over in the instant an attack is even conceived.

I use an Aikido "Koan" with my students when we talk about this. It say "what happens to all notions of timing when you introduce the notion of already?". I think that this is what O-Sensei meant.

That said, until we are advanced enough to perceive reality in the present instant, we are stuck in the dualistic world and understanding issues of timing, as described in the article, will only enhance ones Aikido.
If one fully understands the principles related to the three timings one has the capacity to absorb /neutralize any potential attack.
As O Sensei stated it is not about speed of opponents attack its all about perception and timing.This is what blending or harmonizing with ones partner is all about.
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:00 AM   #65
aikilouis
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

A pertinent point of view on the subject:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...45782609134529

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