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Old 04-30-2010, 11:12 AM   #26
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more of a path or"way".

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote: View Post
I think that anyone that says this clearly didn't get Kano's intent.

But, as you wisely pointed out Kevin, that's just one person's view.
But, it's a like one vote... it's mine.

Best regards (and safe and successful journey where ever you're headed soon),
Thanks Chuck! Appreciate it!

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Old 05-03-2010, 09:25 PM   #27
OwlMatt
 
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Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more of a path or"way".

I think judo has as much potential to be a "way" as does aikido. That said, I think judo's double life as a competitive sport can be a hindrance to that way. There is a temptation to abandon the way in favor of the sport. I suspect I will run into this problem sooner or later in my own practice of taekwondo.
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Old 05-04-2010, 04:40 PM   #28
Marc Randolph
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Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more of a path or"way".

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
Serious dancers and baseball players are trying to become better dancers and baseball players.

Serious martial artists doing a martial way are trying to become better martial artists but they can also try - if they want to but they don't have to if they don't want to - to become better humans (as you said: self-perfection). And of course there are lots of other possible ways(!) to do that.
Of course, anyone can become try to become a better human. Martial arts is simply a very visible, well discussed path, and the one that most of us have chosen. There are many other paths...

But that wasn't the main reason for this response.
Quote:
Finally Jonathan it doesn't get more and more complex it gets more and more simple...
Agreed. The challenge is to gain control - both mental control, as well physical control (training your body to do EXACTLY what you command it to do, nothing more and nothing less) in order to shed all the stuff that is in the way of the simple (regardless if it is dance, or martial art, or any other topic).
Marc
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Old 05-04-2010, 07:56 PM   #29
Anjisan
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Ki Symbol Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more of a path or"way".

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
I think judo has as much potential to be a "way" as does aikido. That said, I think judo's double life as a competitive sport can be a hindrance to that way. There is a temptation to abandon the way in favor of the sport. I suspect I will run into this problem sooner or later in my own practice of taekwondo.
I must say that such a point is interesting given that Master Kano sent some of his top students to train with Osensei (per John Steven's book Invincible Warrior), not the other way around that I have heard of at least. Further, Aikido due to Osensei's Shinto beliefs certainly emphasizes a greater spiritual component that I have not heard of in Judo--but that certainly is not to say that it is not there. Finally, in most Aikido circles, competition is shall we say, frowned upon, so that is certainly a plus given the "competition" that the human race seems to be perpetually engaged in with regard to everything from natural resources to status. These are at least some favorable points in favor of Aikido, but at the end of the day it is in the eye of the beholder anyway.
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Old 05-04-2010, 08:56 PM   #30
Gorgeous George
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Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more of a path or"way".

Quote:
Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
Aikido due to Osensei's Shinto beliefs certainly emphasizes a greater spiritual component that I have not heard of in Judo--but that certainly is not to say that it is not there.
It's my understanding that aikido was created to be a means for O'Sensei to practise both his spiritual beliefs, and martial arts: two things which meant a lot to him. I certainly see aikido as, ultimately, a form of meditation/zen/alignment with the Self what have you.

I can't comment on judo, as i don't know much about it: why it was created, what Kano sought to embody within in, etc.
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Old 05-05-2010, 03:03 AM   #31
Mark Uttech
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Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more of a path or"way".

Onegaishimasu. For any art to be a "way", I think it just depends on the way 'you' practice it.

In gassho,

Mark

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Old 05-05-2010, 07:26 AM   #32
barry.clemons
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Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more of a path or"way".

Neither

Barry Clemons
"The virtuous man is self-sufficient and undisturbed; not a slave of circumstance or emotion" - Zeno
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Old 05-07-2010, 02:46 PM   #33
Phil Ingram
 
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Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more of a path or"way".

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Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
As they stand today, which art do you believe has stayed more true to its original intentions as being a "way"?
This is a good post hmm very interesting
Its kind of hard to give a anwser I would say it would depend on the Marital artist Modern day judo is more of a sport these days but you do have a few purests to the art that follow the way

But in anwser to your question prolly Aikido is staying true to form there are a few people with diffrent points of view on how things should be done.

Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought.
Matsuo Basho
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Old 05-07-2010, 04:10 PM   #34
C. David Henderson
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Do symbol Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more of a path or"way".

Quote:
Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
******
Aikido due to Osensei's Shinto beliefs certainly emphasizes a greater spiritual component that I have not heard of in Judo--but that certainly is not to say that it is not there.

********
An interesting observation, but problematic, IMO.

First, as I'm sure you know, O Sensei's beliefs were notoriously obtuse for his direct students, and few people now claim even to understand them, much less appear focused on pursuing the art in terms of his spiritual beliefs.

If we say that one of the reasons Aikido is more of a "do" is because of the religious pursuits and interests of its founder, that seems to imply following his religion. If O Sensei's beliefs are a central reason Aikido is considered a "do," then those of us who do not share his beliefs, interests, and practice presumably are not practicing aikido as a "do."

Conversely, some very prominent aikidoists actively seek to find a spiritual element based on a different tradition. Chiba Sensei, for example, long has studied and practiced zazen (with OSensei's knowledge when he was an uchideshi) and has written about Aikido as a "do" in those terms.

If the substitution of a different religious backdrop doesn't affect the constitution of aikido as a "do," then someone who uses a similar lens in studying judo or another art equally should be able to say theirs is as much of a "do."

I also don't think it's enough to say that since O Sensei's beliefs animate the "philosophy" of aikido, just pursuing the physical practice implies one is really a student of aikido as a "do," particularly given the many different flavors of modern aikido, all based on a common (or overlapping) syllabus.

For that matter, the "do" arts are not unique in a concern over philosophy. From the Preface to George Kirby's Intermediate Techniques of Jujitsu, the Gentle Art (1985): "knowledge means responsibility, confidence [may] be equated with humility, and ... any sort of violence goes against the basic precepts of the art." Similarly, on the web site for his school, Mr. Kirby, who was awarded the rank of judan in 2000, talks about the development of integrity, humility, and respect as "three values essential to a martial artist."

I wonder what most aikido or judo practioners would say about the philosophy of their respective arts that is fundamentally different from what Mr. Kriby writes, or why one would suppose study of a different art provides a "better' vehicle for self-transformation.

YMMV

Respectfully,

David Henderson
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Old 05-07-2010, 05:27 PM   #35
Anjisan
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Ki Symbol Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more of a path or"way".

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Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
An interesting observation, but problematic, IMO.

First, as I'm sure you know, O Sensei's beliefs were notoriously obtuse for his direct students, and few people now claim even to understand them, much less appear focused on pursuing the art in terms of his spiritual beliefs.

If we say that one of the reasons Aikido is more of a "do" is because of the religious pursuits and interests of its founder, that seems to imply following his religion. If O Sensei's beliefs are a central reason Aikido is considered a "do," then those of us who do not share his beliefs, interests, and practice presumably are not practicing aikido as a "do."

Conversely, some very prominent aikidoists actively seek to find a spiritual element based on a different tradition. Chiba Sensei, for example, long has studied and practiced zazen (with OSensei's knowledge when he was an uchideshi) and has written about Aikido as a "do" in those terms.

If the substitution of a different religious backdrop doesn't affect the constitution of aikido as a "do," then someone who uses a similar lens in studying judo or another art equally should be able to say theirs is as much of a "do."

I also don't think it's enough to say that since O Sensei's beliefs animate the "philosophy" of aikido, just pursuing the physical practice implies one is really a student of aikido as a "do," particularly given the many different flavors of modern aikido, all based on a common (or overlapping) syllabus.

For that matter, the "do" arts are not unique in a concern over philosophy. From the Preface to George Kirby's Intermediate Techniques of Jujitsu, the Gentle Art (1985): "knowledge means responsibility, confidence [may] be equated with humility, and ... any sort of violence goes against the basic precepts of the art." Similarly, on the web site for his school, Mr. Kirby, who was awarded the rank of judan in 2000, talks about the development of integrity, humility, and respect as "three values essential to a martial artist."

I wonder what most aikido or judo practioners would say about the philosophy of their respective arts that is fundamentally different from what Mr. Kriby writes, or why one would suppose study of a different art provides a "better' vehicle for self-transformation.

YMMV

Respectfully,
My point is that spirituality was more greatly emphasized by Osensei. I believe that he stated that one need not be religious or even spiritual to practice Aikido as he wanted his art to be inclusive. From what I have read, he felt that Aikido would have to be inclusive so that it would have a chance at contributing to solutions to many of the worlds issues. Of course, whether or not Aikido is practiced with a spiritual component will partially come down to what type of atmosphere one's sensei creates in their dojo.

Ultimately, it may come down to what one defines as "spiritual" for oneself. I mean, baseball could be defined as spiritual path under the proper definition. It seem so me that there is a fundamental difference (but they are not mutually exclusive) between personal growth and character development and spiritual which could be defined as including a connection to something bigger than oneself.
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