Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-04-2010, 07:26 PM   #26
AllanF
Location: Shenyang
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 56
China
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Allen
I would say that " freeing the waist form the hips" is loaded comment that in and of itself..can be an entirely external endeavour that may not produce quite the end results you are looking for.
I m writing from my phone while fishing in S. C....more later
Dan
Yeah i think at the moment the movement i'm generating is 90% external though i am trying to figure out ways to internalize it. Needless to say i not satisfied with it, but i will continue to experiment in order to improve.
Look forward to reading what you say.
Allan
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2010, 07:51 PM   #27
Thomas Campbell
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 407
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Shioda considered from another perspective:

http://systemasweden.blogspot.com/20...an-barely.html
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2010, 11:49 AM   #28
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
From reading Shioda, he calls what I said was Aiki, Kokyu-ryoku. And what the IP/IS crowd is calling Aiki, Shioda calls Shuchu-ryoku.
Ah, no. IMO, Chushin Ryoku, Shuchu Ryoku, and Kokyu Ryoku are sub components of aiki. They are specific physical parts that can be trained internally. You'd need all three and more (opposing sides, spirals, etc) to have aiki.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2010, 10:07 PM   #29
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,628
United_States
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Heres the part you left off; didn't read?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Seems that Shioda is saying that both are simply components of Aiki, that both are just parts and neither is the whole enchilada.
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Shuchu Ryoku, and Kokyu Ryoku are sub components of aiki.
I don't understand how that's opposed to what I said.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
They are specific physical parts that can be trained internally.
How are you using the word internal? What do you mean by it?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
You'd need all three and more ... to have aiki.
I don't understand how that's opposed to what I said.

Last edited by ChrisHein : 05-05-2010 at 10:12 PM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2010, 02:06 AM   #30
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 311
Japan
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Heres the part you left off; didn't read?

I don't understand how that's opposed to what I said.

How are you using the word internal? What do you mean by it?

I don't understand how that's opposed to what I said.
Chris, the reason that Mark posted what he posted is probably because he believes he is coming from the "IP/IS Crowd" and that he just doesn't identify shuchu ryoku with 'aiki' (you generalized that ip/is peeps identify aiki with shuchu ryoku), but sees 'aiki' as a combination/interaction of chuushin ryoku, kokyu ryoku, and shuchu ryoku. You really need to make your brush-strokes smaller.

L

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2010, 06:13 AM   #31
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Pretty much, Lorel, yes. To add further, I don't think those three = aiki. I think those three are parts that help make up aiki, but not the only ones.

And let me make the disclaimer that I'm going by what I know now ...
as a beginner ...

It could be that what Shioda meant by chuushin ryoku, kokyu ryoku, and shuchu ryoku included opposing sides, spirals, etc. Hard to tell with the way the books and interviews are written.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2010, 06:28 AM   #32
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Heres the part you left off; didn't read?
Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Seems that Shioda is saying that both are simply components of Aiki, that both are just parts and neither is the whole enchilada.
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
Shuchu Ryoku, and Kokyu Ryoku are sub components of aiki.
I don't understand how that's opposed to what I said.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
From reading Shioda, he calls what I said was Aiki, Kokyu-ryoku.
Might just be me misreading what you posted... But, you wrote that you thought Shioda's Kokyu-ryoku= your view of aiki. I took your post that your view was
Kokyu-ryoku=aiki
and that Kokyu-ryoku/aiki=Chushin Ryoku + Shuchu Ryoku.

While my view is
aiki = Chushin Ryoku + Shuchu Ryoku + Kokyu Ryoku + opposite body + spirals + etc.

Quite a difference there.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
How are you using the word internal? What do you mean by it?
That's where we (Aikiweb Community) have gone round and round about aiki and internal. We (both sides) have even tried to use video. I think at this point, the IHTBF applies. One other option is that if you (Aikiweb Community) can't get hands-on, then perhaps someone you know has done so?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I don't understand how that's opposed to what I said.
Hopefully, I clarified things.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2010, 07:19 AM   #33
niall
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
niall's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 394
Japan
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

My understanding is that kokyu ryoku is everything. If you can catch it aikido becomes so easy and so simple. Well that's what the top aikikai teachers used to say. So compared to that shuchu ryoku and chushin ryoku are just technical details and you know what they say about the small stuff.

Lift your arm, smile (optional) and throw. That's all.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


aikiweb blog|wordpress blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2010, 07:30 AM   #34
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

I wouldn't add those things to my list for aiki, Mark. Shioda was pretty limited to that "one line" idea that (IME) vexes the majority of JMA- but he had "aiki" to a degree. I would never chose to move like him or (its by far, less efficient, and incomplete) but with other training in place...you still get aiki.
As I have said elsewhere- you can have IP/Aiki and still be vulnerable to good fighters with more efficient martial movement and understanding of the needs for combatives. In that regard I remain unimpressed with the martial movement of most people in the TMA- most notably ALL the Aiki based arts.
As it is with weapons...at a certain point I'm happy to leave most JMA people moving like they do - and both Daito Ryu ( mainline) and Aikido's "one line model" is at the top of the list
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-06-2010 at 07:36 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2010, 08:37 AM   #35
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
My understanding is that kokyu ryoku is everything. If you can catch it aikido becomes so easy and so simple. Well that's what the top aikikai teachers used to say. So compared to that shuchu ryoku and chushin ryoku are just technical details and you know what they say about the small stuff.

Lift your arm, smile (optional) and throw. That's all.
Kokyu ryoku does NOT come even close to covering everything enough to afford you the cavalier approach of "Lift your arm and throw." Ueshiba's movement displays a deeper understanding then that.
There are ways to train and then there are ways to train...then there are ways to use the results of that training that you will never learn from breath training alone. Thinking it does will limit your growth. More importantly-meeting someone more fully developed will see you stopped in your tracks. With more fully developed practice and understanding, you can get to a point where you would not be a "push over" -even for an expert. TJMA aiki movement with breath power will not get you there.
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2010, 09:11 AM   #36
niall
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
niall's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 394
Japan
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Dan what's your point? Mark mentioned kokyu ryoku and said he wasn't going to get into it. I clarified how some aikikai teachers saw it. O Sensei's aikido was kokyu ryoku. Well that's what he said. I'm not telling you how to do your training. Please do it how you think you will improve fastest and farthest. I didn't mention training or practice. I talked about aikido. If you don't think aikido is kokyu ryoku that's cool. Maybe you will one day.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


aikiweb blog|wordpress blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2010, 09:33 AM   #37
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
Dan what's your point? Mark mentioned kokyu ryoku and said he wasn't going to get into it. I clarified how some aikikai teachers saw it. O Sensei's aikido was kokyu ryoku. Well that's what he said. I'm not telling you how to do your training. Please do it how you think you will improve fastest and farthest. I didn't mention training or practice. I talked about aikido. If you don't think aikido is kokyu ryoku that's cool. Maybe you will one day.
Mr. Matthews (I don't believe we have spoken before)
I'm only partially interested in what Ueshiba said. I learned a long time ago not to trust Asian teachers in what they say or do at face value. I am more interested in what they display. In Ueshiba's case-that was more in-depth than Kokyu ryoku alone. Mind you, I did not diminish breath power training. There is just a lot more to aiki than that.
If you, or anyone else, thinks Aikido-is only Kokyu ryoku..that's fine. Your opinion "Lift your arm and throw." will last about as long as your meeting someone who has a deeper understanding of these things -most likely outside of aikido.
I'm not trying to change your mind or argue with you. Enjoy your training. I am talking to others; who either now know better, or are beginning to understand there is more to it than that.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-06-2010 at 09:39 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2010, 09:34 AM   #38
Adam Huss
 
Adam Huss's Avatar
Location: Ohio
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 610
United_States
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

I'm a pretty young aikidoka and by no means represent official stances of my teachers, but I have trained a little in Yoshinkan and Aikikai (AAA) styles of aikido and have some thoughts on these topics:

It seems that rather than focusing on esoteric concepts that are difficult for the average person to understand, Shioda sensei's focus was to include all the elements of these in specific ways in each kihon waza/dosa. Each kihon, whether dosa or waza, have specific footwork, upper body work, and breathing methods integrated into them in a specific, kata-like, way. Yoshinkan aikido was originally taught to police, military, government personnel...with very few instructors and large gymnasiums full of students. There wasn't enough instructors/time to explain and teach things so they just integrated it into each technique in a step-by-step manner. When one is getting to the 4-3rd kyu level they start working on many partner training exercises, like continuation drills, that help students develop fluidity.

Often my teacher would stop me and ask to point out shu chu ryoku, katameru, chusin ryoku, kyoku ryoku etc, of a technique I was doing. So rather than saying "extend you ki" one might say "keep both feet flat on the ground, push off your big toe, sink your hips, keep your elbows in" etc.

As for Ando Sensei doing hiriki no yosei ni...to oversimplify it, it seems (and I don't speak Japanese so I'm not sure) he was emphasizing the importance of sh'te keeping their elbows in and down...and moving from the hips with a properly aligned body posture, rather than lifting and muscling the arm up (around 25-27 seconds in he shows this muscling).

As for the comment about the uke...I won't comment on someone I don't know, but I've always been taught its disrespectful to be vocal (grunting and such) when uke as its like saying "look at me, I'm the one sensei is using as uke, not you, and his technique is strong!" which distracts the students from what is being taught. But that might be just me...I'm not one of those guys that think someone is wrong because they were taught something different than what I was/is.

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2010, 09:51 AM   #39
Rabih Shanshiry
 
Rabih Shanshiry's Avatar
Location: Boston/MA
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 197
United_States
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

The question how Shioda Kancho's terminology maps back to IS is an interesting and important one. But I find the question of whether his ability was passed on much more important.

I think most can agree that most Yoshinkan aikido is taught more as a jujutsu than as an "aiki"-do - especially at the lower ranks. Still, I have heard some speculation that the real stuff gets introduced at the higher dan levels. I have no idea whether that is true.

So my question is: does the current generation of Yoshinkan shihan exhibit any of Shioda's soft aiki power?

Would appreciate any insights into whether the following clips of these Yoshinkan Shihan demonstrate IS to any degree:

Chida Sensei
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf8BWdD4ioM
Focusing on 1:25 to 1:50

Ando Sensei
http://www.onlinedojo.jp/eng/private/video.aspx?vno=872
Focusing on 0:29, 1:00, and 1:30.

....rab
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2010, 09:58 AM   #40
Adam Huss
 
Adam Huss's Avatar
Location: Ohio
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 610
United_States
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

The kneeling techniques around 1:25 are called kokyu ho.

I'm not a master so I can't speak for them...and I don't know anything about the terminology relating to IS as its something I've never seen talked about in a dojo in those terms. Whether the concept is translated I can not speak intelligently about.

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2010, 10:04 AM   #41
Rabih Shanshiry
 
Rabih Shanshiry's Avatar
Location: Boston/MA
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 197
United_States
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
As for Ando Sensei doing hiriki no yosei ni...to oversimplify it, it seems (and I don't speak Japanese so I'm not sure) he was emphasizing the importance of sh'te keeping their elbows in and down...and moving from the hips with a properly aligned body posture, rather than lifting and muscling the arm up (around 25-27 seconds in he shows this muscling).
Thanks Adam - I agree with your observations. The question is whether there is also something internal going on there that Ando Sensei was demonstrating. One wouldn't normally expect such a small elbow movement to affect uke that much.

...rab
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2010, 10:24 AM   #42
Adam Huss
 
Adam Huss's Avatar
Location: Ohio
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 610
United_States
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Oh ok, I think I know what you are talking about now. In reference to the elbow power...uke's physical reaction more has to do with how tight he is holding on. The tight uke hold's on, and the more energy he puts into grab, the more shite's movement will effect uke. I don't mean to speak of things you already know, but that's about the best way I can describe it. I can't speak of IS, but aligning shite's body correctly while doing the technique at the proper angles will seriously compromise uke's balance. That's pretty much how we explain it. Another unique thing about Yoshinkan aikido, that you may not be able to see in the vids, is that uke is almost always either pulling or pushing in grab techniques. Number 1 variations of basic grabbing attacks has uke pulling, while number 2 variations have uke pushing. This makes a pretty big difference in how the technique plays out...which may explain why there is so much movement (on uke's part) vice so little movement on shite's part and the rather static attacks in Yoshinkan aikido (ie we don't step forward in grabs...and only shuffle forward for most strikes).

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2010, 10:31 AM   #43
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,628
United_States
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Hey Mark,
I understand the confusion now. I also think that there are several components that make up "Aiki". If I had to over simplify it I would simply call it rhythm and timing (as in my video). I think that Shioda would simply call what I was describing "Kokyu Ryoku". I do think that Kokyu Ryoku, as described in Shioda's "Total Aikido" is the most important lesson in Aikido, but I also think that Shioda is saying it's only part of the puzzle.

The "It has to be felt" (IHTBF) argument. What Shioda is describing is very simple and straight forward, I think we can all come to an understanding and agree about what he is saying. I'm sorry if I am painting in broad strokes, but I don't feel we have hashed much out yet. Once we get the broad strokes filled in, we can get to the detail.

Also Mark, I'm sorry if I'm over simplifying your stand point. But the videos you showed, and most of what you and the IP/IS crowd is talking about seems, to me, to be focused on what Shioda is calling "Shuchu-Ryoku". Am I wrong in assuming that this is your main field of interest? And that this is what the majority of the videos you've shown are emphasizing?

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2010, 11:19 AM   #44
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Mr. Matthews (I don't believe we have spoken before)
I'm only partially interested in what Ueshiba said. I learned a long time ago not to trust Asian teachers in what they say or do at face value. I am more interested in what they display. In Ueshiba's case-that was more in-depth than Kokyu ryoku alone. Mind you, I did not diminish breath power training. There is just a lot more to aiki than that.
If you, or anyone else, thinks Aikido-is only Kokyu ryoku..that's fine. Your opinion "Lift your arm and throw." will last about as long as your meeting someone who has a deeper understanding of these things -most likely outside of aikido.
I'm not trying to change your mind or argue with you. Enjoy your training. I am talking to others; who either now know better, or are beginning to understand there is more to it than that.
Cheers
Dan
Follow up.
I think the above sounds to condescending. That wasn't my intent at all. Let me try it again

1. What they say versus what they do
I don't think we can ever go by what Asian teachers "say." Too many times their movements and actions do not align with what they say.
In Ueshiba's case his movements are far more revealing than the one liners he is noted for. Perhaps, one liners serve to create a legacy-the famous one liners you can be noted for, but they certainly do not lead to a road map of what to do. In fact often times they leave conflicting information and understanding in your wake.

2. Our own one liners
In the same way "Lift your arm and throw" can be a powerful statement of what happens after you have built a conditioned body or just more inane teaching that we have all been part of. That's why I say some of these comments and one liners are loaded. Does that make better sense?

3. Leaving people be to train as they will.
For the last part, I don't think it is conducive to the discussion to argue about it on an internet forum and make enemies. As so many have pointed out- it is too difficult to lay out the training, and the effects of IP/Aiki in written terms- when one meeting resolves the debate points, and everyone moves forward in the discussion from there. The difficulties of laying it out in written form is being noted by the very people training this way. It's why so many have said "You have to feel it." I am trying to avoid arguing about it anymore and instead just leaving people to train the way they will until they meet someone training this way. It seems that after that a different type of discussion takes place.
On a personal note, one thing I struggle with (and other Aikido and Daito ryu teachers training this way do as well) is now knowing that this is indeed a superior way to train over just doing waza and struggling through the aiki arts hoping for those nights where things "click."

4. Why Kokyu is not enough
Training without the benefit of both the prerequisite body conditioning to create an aiki body-and then the training in martial movement to allow IP/aiki to express itself more fully can take decades and one may still never really get it.
A case in point is Kokyu Ryoku. Kokyu will indeed connect your body in powerful ways. It is not going to teach most people how to use their hara in some very advantagous ways. It is also not going to resolve; a more full understanding of the effects of intent- on your body and the opponents, one side weighted issues, double weightedness, certain openings or weak moments when power is simply not enough (either absorbing or casting away) the ability to make change (alter what the opponent may be doing in fluid motion) the ability to soften the hips and shoulders and use the body in very potent continuos spiraling that people have one hell of a time getting in on before they themselves are thrown or trapped and hit, learning how to use the upper and lower body to effectively use both large and small weapons and also do unarmed work as a seamless "whole" that is more or less unimpeded or interrupted by an opponents efforts. This works without you continually having to try to do things -to- them. As a systematic way to train the body this can be devestatingly effective in more fluid and stressful martial movement; away from one or two step, katas.
And those are just a sampling of pertinent issues one could face with a broader over arching view of martial arts and martial movement, and Kokyu-ryoku does not begin to cover those problems.

I am stating that Ueshiba knew this and showed it in his own movements irrespective of his famous one liners.
I hope that helps understands my view more clearly.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-06-2010 at 11:34 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2010, 11:52 AM   #45
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
. It is also not going to resolve; a more full understanding of the effects of intent- on your body and the opponents, one side weighted issues, double weightedness, ....
Chen Xiaowang had a famous saying about this that sorta says "If that's all there was to it, why would we make a big deal out of it? Anyone could do it."

FWIW

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2010, 09:03 PM   #46
niall
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
niall's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 394
Japan
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Thank you for that more gentle response, Dan.

I think there is room for many approaches and none of them is necessarily the only correct one.

My teachers - Kinjo Asoh who was 7th dan when he died and Sadateru Arikawa who was 9th dan when he died - were both direct students of O Sensei. Following his teachings they emphasized kokyu ryoku as being the (not an) essential element of aikido - the thing we have to catch at all costs. There is no short cut - the way to get it is through many years of sincere training. Perhaps in the Yoshinkan tradition kokyu ryoku has a more specialized and limited technical meaning.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


aikiweb blog|wordpress blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2010, 03:09 AM   #47
aikilouis
Location: Germany
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 218
France
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Follow up.
I think the above sounds to condescending. That wasn't my intent at all. Let me try it again
It's okay, after a while one gets used to the general tone of your posts.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
1. What they say versus what they do
I don't think we can ever go by what Asian teachers "say." Too many times their movements and actions do not align with what they say.
In Ueshiba's case his movements are far more revealing than the one liners he is noted for. Perhaps, one liners serve to create a legacy-the famous one liners you can be noted for, but they certainly do not lead to a road map of what to do. In fact often times they leave conflicting information and understanding in your wake.
I find it unfair to blame the use of pieces of sentences taken out of their context by students of a teacher who was notorious for his long, complex explanations. I don't buy the idea that O Sensei blew smoke in the face of his students for hours for no reason.

I agree that the maxims and douka found in many aikido books are not very helpful (if at all). However, I know of at least one shihan who systematically recorded his conversations with the Founder on tape (then he learned them by heart). How he used the information is another matter, but at least he was provided with the complete message and the context that came with it.

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2010, 07:01 AM   #48
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Ludwig Neveu wrote: View Post
I find it unfair to blame the use of pieces of sentences taken out of their context by students of a teacher who was notorious for his long, complex explanations. I don't buy the idea that O Sensei blew smoke in the face of his students for hours for no reason.
Actually, the internviews state that none of them understood those lectures. I think Stan Pranin and later, Peter Goldsbury covered their lack of understanding of his lectures fairly well. Considering that the majority of the famous prewar students only studied with him for 6 to 8 years, and they were usually young men, it is understandable. The fact that none of them displayed his power throughout their life is further proof that they never captured an understanding of his skill. So we can wonder just what they missed, and if his long explanations would have been any help at all.
Personally, I have found explanations without hands on instruction almost meaningless, but if you consistently see large numbers of students who never captured, equaled or surpassed what the teacher is doing then that is rather telling of a problem or disconnect in the teacher / student model. If a disconnect is consistent among a large number of students from a single source, I would look to that teacher. We have to couple that with the documented fact that post war modern aikido is Tohei / Kissomaru based and not the founder.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-08-2010 at 07:06 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2010, 10:57 AM   #49
niall
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
niall's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 394
Japan
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
...if you consistently see large numbers of students who never captured, equaled or surpassed what the teacher is doing then that is rather telling of a problem or disconnect in the teacher/student model
Dan and I have disagreed about a couple of points in this thread but in a gentle and harmonious little coincidence before he made this perceptive comment I talked about surpassing our teachers in a blog post earlier today.

I deliberately didn't talk about O Sensei and any of his deshi because I was talking in a general sense about teachers and students. But hey, we don't need to be afraid of it. However much of a genius O Sensei was it is not reasonable or desirable that his aikido should be the end of the story. There's an inscription on a British 2 coin: Standing on the Shoulders of Giants. It's a quotation from Isaac Newton: "If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants."

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


aikiweb blog|wordpress blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2010, 02:04 PM   #50
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,119
Offline
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The fact that none of them displayed his power throughout their life is further proof that they never captured an understanding of his skill.
Really, is this an assumption? How would you prove this?

David
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sword work, internal skill, & "Aiki" Timothy WK Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 26 08-18-2007 08:51 PM
anyone heard of a MA called "aiki"? Anat Amitay Training 12 07-25-2004 09:41 PM
"Aiki" akiy Language 48 12-11-2002 12:32 AM
"AIKI", the movie Chris Li General 3 09-10-2002 05:10 PM
"Aiki" akiy Language 6 07-30-2001 03:09 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:03 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate