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Old 05-01-2010, 02:21 PM   #51
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Criminal Minds On The Dojo?

Given your experience, do you think it would be a good idea to ask my dojo if I could practice mostly like that (my previous post in this thread)?

Continuous blending. Till I manage to place the (or at least a) technique. Or would I sound like a dangerous conceited incomprehensible troublesome pupil?
Given your experience.
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Old 05-01-2010, 02:26 PM   #52
James Davis
 
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Re: Criminal Minds On The Dojo?

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
This is _precisely_ what would work for me. Doesn't matter it is frenzied. I need the _continuous_ action. No "stop and go". Continue blending, with uke that reacts naturally, and keeps moving (pushing, pulling, whatever) and doesn't accommodate me for the technique.
Awesome! You're going to love randori at my dojo! Unfortunately, there are seventeen other people that I have to train, and they need to be reached in entirely different ways. These are people that might say...

"This is precisely what would work for me. I need to go slow. Sometimes, I miss the footwork and I need to pick the technique apart a little. I need an uke that will accomodate me, one that will be patient and allow me to repeat the movements until I get it right."



Hang in there, Alberto. It's not always about what we get out of it. We're there for other people too. If we're working with a 65 year old man that's never trained in anything before, or a 12 year old girl that's one third my size, the way of training that you perceive to be "effective" will be of no help to them whatsoever!

When I asked my sensei how fast I should attack him, he asked how far I wanted to be thrown. When my sensei thought that I was up to the task of taking ukemi without injury AND being gentle with whoever attacked me while I was nage, that's when the real crazy fun began.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 05-01-2010, 02:33 PM   #53
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Criminal Minds On The Dojo?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I think you statement really is the difference between taking a martial art, and practicing a martial art.
Sure, I agree. I think alot of people regardless of what they think they are doing, (practicing or taking), really don't rationally understand what it is that they are doing or are there to do. I wasn't for many years. My thoughts were very much in line with Alberto's.

What Aikido means to me today and what it meant 10 years ago are two different things.

The role aikido plays for me today, while linked to combat effectiveness etc, is a much deeper and broader one, hard to explain, but do it for reasons that are much different than when I started.

The guys in the internal threads cover alot of the material and reasons why so no need to re-hash it here.

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Old 05-01-2010, 02:34 PM   #54
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Criminal Minds On The Dojo?

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote: View Post
Awesome! You're going to love randori at my dojo! Unfortunately, there are seventeen other people that I have to train, and they need to be reached in entirely different ways. These are people that might say...

"This is precisely what would work for me. I need to go slow. Sometimes, I miss the footwork and I need to pick the technique apart a little. I need an uke that will accomodate me, one that will be patient and allow me to repeat the movements until I get it right."



Hang in there, Alberto. It's not always about what we get out of it. We're there for other people too. If we're working with a 65 year old man that's never trained in anything before, or a 12 year old girl that's one third my size, the way of training that you perceive to be "effective" will be of no help to them whatsoever!

When I asked my sensei how fast I should attack him, he asked how far I wanted to be thrown. When my sensei thought that I was up to the task of taking ukemi without injury AND being gentle with whoever attacked me while I was nage, that's when the real crazy fun began.
Precisely. This is why I felt as flawed the current training methods.In fact, what prevents there from being 2 different groups of pupils working on the same technique? One group that makes the stop and go way, another one that uses the blending technique.

Why a martial art that made of flexibility its tenet, is so rigid in its capabilities to adjust? Most Ki-Dojos seem to have no way of including any degree of flexibility.

The same argument that goes : I can't accommodate you because if I do I can't accommodate the other 12 pupils, may well go the other way round. Most pupils do as they are told: if the continuous blending method would have been adopted since inception, now it would be normal (and in my humble and worthless opinion we'd even have more better aikidokas) and we would answer pupils who need start and go sorry we can't accommodate this quaint request, because the others are used to the traditional one :-)
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Old 05-01-2010, 02:59 PM   #55
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Criminal Minds On The Dojo?

well. Why I keep asking these silly questions.
I know the answer.

thank you to you all.
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Old 05-01-2010, 05:32 PM   #56
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Criminal Minds On The Dojo?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
If you're calling them "platitudes", then you are convinced. You just passed judgment on them and decided that they're meaningless and worthless.
Uh, no, I haven't decided any such thing, and I specifically stated that I'm not convinced...therefore no judgement has been passed. I simply remain unconvinced that this particular person will find "emptying his cup" to be a long term solution to the issues he voiced.

Just because something is a cliche does not mean it is useless.

I like the rest of your post...I just still remain unconvinced of it's application in this case.

Best,
Ron

Quote:
When a beginner is advised to empty his or her cup, that isn't the same as saying that what they know is wrong or worthless. All it is, is saying that you need to set that body of knowledge aside for a time, and not try to see this new thing through those old filters. I can't see any reasonable objection to that. Of course a new style isn't going to make sense at first -- especially not if you're using your old set of rules as a basis of what makes sense. And, in fact, it's always possible that your new style is a load of crap, and it never will make any sense. But you'll never know if you can't suspend disbelief, so to speak...set aside what you "know" so that you can learn.

You know that old saying, "It ain't what you don't know that's the problem...it's what you know that just ain't so"? It's good advice. What a swimming-pool lifeguard "knows" about water dangers is just not so when you take him out of the pool and put him on whitewater...and if he clings to what he "knows", he'll be more in danger than someone who goes into that situation knowing that they don't know.

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-01-2010, 08:56 PM   #57
RED
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Re: Criminal Minds On The Dojo?

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
Given your experience, do you think it would be a good idea to ask my dojo if I could practice mostly like that (my previous post in this thread)?

Continuous blending. Till I manage to place the (or at least a) technique. Or would I sound like a dangerous conceited incomprehensible troublesome pupil?
Given your experience.
I think instructors might like things the way they do it. I mean my sensei typically is open to suggestions. But that might not be your instructor's style. And you might be stepping on toes. Feel it out.

MM
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Old 05-01-2010, 09:00 PM   #58
RED
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Re: Criminal Minds On The Dojo?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Sure, I agree. I think alot of people regardless of what they think they are doing, (practicing or taking), really don't rationally understand what it is that they are doing or are there to do. I wasn't for many years. My thoughts were very much in line with Alberto's.

What Aikido means to me today and what it meant 10 years ago are two different things.

The role aikido plays for me today, while linked to combat effectiveness etc, is a much deeper and broader one, hard to explain, but do it for reasons that are much different than when I started.

The guys in the internal threads cover alot of the material and reasons why so no need to re-hash it here.
I personally don't rationalize much. I just like doing Aikido, I don't think my reasons for doing Aikido have yet to expand past the fact I love doing and learning Aikido. What it means to me might change some day too. But technically I've yet to know where I stand other than just loving training and refining. Though my concept of refining tends to lean towards effectiveness and efficiency.

MM
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Old 05-01-2010, 10:04 PM   #59
niall
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Re: Criminal Minds On The Dojo?

Mary's right Ron - if you call a comment a platitude you are already passing a negative judgment. - she just called you on it. If that's not what you meant cool but that's what you wrote.

Alberto it's good to have a questioning open mind but like a couple of other people said it's a little early for you to know what is best for yourself. Why don't you talk to your teacher about your concerns and how he or she sees your training develop in the future?

Then if the answer isn't convincing you can change teachers, change dojos or change martial arts.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
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Old 05-02-2010, 05:39 AM   #60
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Criminal Minds On The Dojo?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I personally don't rationalize much. I just like doing Aikido, I don't think my reasons for doing Aikido have yet to expand past the fact I love doing and learning Aikido. What it means to me might change some day too. But technically I've yet to know where I stand other than just loving training and refining. Though my concept of refining tends to lean towards effectiveness and efficiency.
Sounds good, I think this is great! I came to the practice as I stated with expectations and of course, I was confused as all get out trying to figure out and interpret everything that we did as having some very upfront and direct purpose combatively, when in fact, alot of what we do is simply designed to condition us to move maybe differently than we have in the past.

Of course, YMMV with teachers and students both...alot of what I experienced was just a waste of precious training time, but heck nothing is perfect and in the beginning there is just too much wrong with you personally for a sensei/sempai or other students to be more prescriptive in doing what you really need.

Also, I think we are a little presumptuous about how much time someone is gonna personally invest in us when we are new. Think about all the folks we see come and go over the years and most of them won't do the simple stuff you ask them to do anyway!

Anyway, I think having the open mind like your have and just enjoiying being in the moment is great!

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Old 05-02-2010, 05:59 AM   #61
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Criminal Minds On The Dojo?

Maggie, if you can define efficiency and effective in terms that we can all quantify and agree on then you have achieved the holy grail on AIkiweb if you ask me. Been trying to get someone to answer that one for years on here!

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Old 05-02-2010, 07:44 AM   #62
chillzATL
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Re: Criminal Minds On The Dojo?

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
Given your experience, do you think it would be a good idea to ask my dojo if I could practice mostly like that (my previous post in this thread)?

Continuous blending. Till I manage to place the (or at least a) technique. Or would I sound like a dangerous conceited incomprehensible troublesome pupil?
Given your experience.
Blending? That's what you're calling it? You're applying a nice common aikido term to what, in your case, is actually just struggling along till you manage to snap a poorly executed technique on someone because you lack the ability to slow down your practice so that you can learn how to do things properly before taking it further. What's incomprehensible to me is how you can't seem to comprehend this...
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Old 05-02-2010, 07:53 AM   #63
dps
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Re: Criminal Minds On The Dojo?

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
See what I mean:

in the dojo: do ikkyo.
It doesn't succeed, the guy's arm is very rigid. He stays there.
game over, restart (plus: frustration).

With a friend of mine, out of the dojo: do ikkyo.
It doesn't succeed, his arm is rigid. I keep my hands on his arm, he immediately tries a natural reaction, he lifts his arm. I soon follow him going in shihonage, it nearly succeeds but he is still "rebeling" and tries to face me, i follow him again with a mild tenkan and there we go, ikkyo! pam!

Beautiful!

There's gonna be a "fight" lol
It sounds like you are learning from your Aikido practice.
I would not expect what you can or can't do in the dojo to be exactly what happens outside the dojo, completely different situations.
People with Aikido training will give you unnatural reactions to your techniques.
I would say keep practicing both inside and outside the dojo.

David
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Old 05-02-2010, 04:54 PM   #64
RED
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Re: Criminal Minds On The Dojo?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Maggie, if you can define efficiency and effective in terms that we can all quantify and agree on then you have achieved the holy grail on AIkiweb if you ask me. Been trying to get someone to answer that one for years on here!
Me personally, efficiency means the least amount of movement and energy for anyone movement.. I am lazy and like pound cake you see.

Effective: it works ... I've yet to expand this idea personally.

MM
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Old 05-02-2010, 05:03 PM   #65
RED
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Re: Criminal Minds On The Dojo?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post

Also, I think we are a little presumptuous about how much time someone is gonna personally invest in us when we are new. Think about all the folks we see come and go over the years and most of them won't do the simple stuff you ask them to do anyway!

!
I agree. Me personally about a year ago when a new person came into the dojo I'd get really excited to help them roll, and figure out footwork, and techniques when I worked with them. I'd take time in between or after class to work on stuff. But when they'd leave the school after like 2 weeks of training, I'd honestly feel a little hurt. lol So now honestly I wait. If a month later I see them still coming then I get excited and go out of my way to help them. Frankly I want to train and learn too. Maybe I want to get help with my technique and ukemi in between class or after class. So if I give that time helping some one that will lose interest in a week, it feels like wasted time.

MM
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Old 05-04-2010, 10:23 PM   #66
Zach Trent
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Re: Criminal Minds On The Dojo?

Wow- Just spent the last 1/2 hour reading this thread.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. Thanks Alberto for sharing your problem and being so interested in people's replies, some of which are fairly critical. I loved Davis Senseis response about resisting techniques...I'll be thinking about that a lot!

My response if fairly critical too...

Though I sympathize with what I understand are your two main concerns: 1. Some black belts have said that their training isn't working on you and 2. You do not want to "start and stop" in your training. You would rather keep moving, keep adapting, and trying all the techniques in your tool bag.

Hell man, I want to do that too! Rather than spending an hour doing techniques that confuse me and frustrate me, I would rather do the 2 or three that I love doing, and do them from movement rather than static.

Thing is, I'm only a 5th kyu. I don't get to decide how I train. My teacher decides that. I think when I have more experience under my belt I will have earned the right to practice how I want before and after class, but not during.

I think you raise some cool questions though
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:33 AM   #67
lbb
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Re: Criminal Minds On The Dojo?

Quote:
Zach Trent wrote: View Post
Hell man, I want to do that too! Rather than spending an hour doing techniques that confuse me and frustrate me, I would rather do the 2 or three that I love doing, and do them from movement rather than static.

Thing is, I'm only a 5th kyu. I don't get to decide how I train. My teacher decides that. I think when I have more experience under my belt I will have earned the right to practice how I want before and after class, but not during.
There is also a great deal to be said -- in everything, not just aikido -- for working the most on what you love the least. That doesn't mean that you should pursue things you hate just because you hate them. What it means is that your own aversion often provides a clue that this is something you should delve into a little more deeply. We get frustrated by things that we're not very good at, and we get confused by things that we don't understand, and developing proficiency at a martial art means developing proficiency at many things, not all of which are easy and fun to do. Thus, the "yuck" feeling can be a signal that this is something you really need to buckle down on. Of course, you can't tell this to someone who has already made up his/her mind that the thing in question is worthless. You need to have had the "I hate this, it's dumb" reaction, get yourself past it, and prove to yourself that it's worth working through this reaction, before training this way can become a habit. It's a really good habit, though, I think.
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Old 05-05-2010, 10:28 PM   #68
CurtisK
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Re: Criminal Minds On The Dojo?

I see this at work, every day life and in the martial arts. New people always know better. They aren't suggesting they know what's best for you or anyone else, but they sure as heck know what's best for them better than you do. I call it the teen-age stage, which doesnt imply teenager, just that the person thinks they know enough so no longer need other to tell them how and they are often in a hurry to do things better-faster-stronger.

For me, I end up learning more if I empty my cup and take as much as I can from what is being taught in the moment. Sure I may get more out of it if everyone was there for me, but they're not. After a while of being patient and trying to understand what is being taught, if I find I'm not getting value for my time, I will spend my time on something else.
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Old 05-05-2010, 10:44 PM   #69
Rob Watson
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Re: Criminal Minds On The Dojo?

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
Given your experience, do you think it would be a good idea to ask my dojo if I could practice mostly like that (my previous post in this thread)?

Continuous blending. Till I manage to place the (or at least a) technique. Or would I sound like a dangerous conceited incomprehensible troublesome pupil?
Given your experience.
Flowing (kinonagare) is easy and static is hard (in more ways than one can imagine). Static builds a foundation that permits continued and continuous growth and development - flowing as a foundation does not. That is the Iwama way and I'm finally coming around to find it works pretty good for me as well.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 05-06-2010, 05:10 AM   #70
Mark Peckett
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Re: Criminal Minds On The Dojo?

I was watching a Morihiro Saito Shihan video the other day on which he said ki-no-nagare techniques should only be practisedby sandan and above. Everyone else should work on getting the basics right.
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Old 05-06-2010, 07:33 AM   #71
lbb
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Re: Criminal Minds On The Dojo?

Quote:
Mark Peckett wrote: View Post
I was watching a Morihiro Saito Shihan video the other day on which he said ki-no-nagare techniques should only be practisedby sandan and above. Everyone else should work on getting the basics right.
Sounds a bit like what my sensei says: "You can always speed up a good thing" -- emphasis on the word "good".
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