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Old 04-30-2010, 03:52 AM   #51
niall
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Re: Is Ukemi Destroying our bodies?

Eva this is a link I just found of a white belt very proficiently demonstrationg normal aikido mae ukemi and ushiro ukemi (#1, #2, #3, -#4). All of them are with the legs crossed (one leg tucked under the other like a figure 4). #5 (breakfalls) is a judo style ukemi and the legs are parallel, not crossed (like a figure 11).

http://www.aikido-world.com/highligh...ukemi-undo.htm

I'm not sure where to find a wide-leg ukemi but I'm sure someone will be able to.

About hard falls - the more of your body that takes the impact the smaller the shock. So if you can, start at your hand (tegatana) and roll down your arm and body. If you can't do that then the slap on the tatami becomes important because that will absorb the shock too.

For shiho nage I don't think you need to do a jump (tobi ukemi) but you can try to take the ukemi instantly so there is not even a fraction of a second with tension in your wrist. Too fast is better than too slow at first and your partners might even think you're going too early but you'll soon figure it out. You can also wear a supporter on your weak wrist as a signal to your partners.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
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Old 04-30-2010, 08:23 AM   #52
ruthmc
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Re: Is Ukemi Destroying our bodies?

I agree that poor ukemi will destroy your body, sometimes quite rapidly

It's learning to do it right that's the trick...

I'm currently working on ensuring that I don't lose the connection between my hands and hips when taking ukemi - it's something I do ok as tori, but poorly as uke

Another good way to learn is by reversing technique, which means your ukemi has to be sufficiently 'on the ball' to take advantage of any opening tori leaves for a reversal...

Allowing yourself to be dragged off balance with your arm stretched out way beyond your centre will almost certainly result in a painful fall

Relaxation is important too, but I think in order to get there you first need confidence. Knowing for sure that your body can roll smoothly really helps you to relax. Trouble is it can take a lot of trial and error to get there, with many set-backs along the way. Good teaching is imperative, with emphasis on learning to roll and fall as being equally important as learning to throw

Ruth
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Old 04-30-2010, 10:36 AM   #53
Basia Halliop
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Re: Is Ukemi Destroying our bodies?

OK, I get the cross-legged comment now. I forgot about stylistic differences. My teacher is of Kanai Sensei's school, so we don't do our back roll that way. But I've seen it at seminars and from visitors.

Still not sure what a breakfall with legs crossed would look like.
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:19 PM   #54
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: Is Ukemi Destroying our bodies?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
knee walking shouldn't hurt anything... I mean its an exercise developed to strengthen the body. The only times I see people saying it hurts them is when they put all their weight on their knees.
Homma Sensei wrote an essay regarding suwari waza some time back. It may be on his web site somewhere but what I took from it is this...practicing suwari waza/shikko does not necisarily strengthen your knees. If a person doesn't already have good muscles around their knees doing shikko/suwari waza will cause more damage. Doing shikko/suwari waza with the mindset that if you practice them they will strengthen your knees is not smart. In his essay Homma Sensei said he quit teaching suwari waza over 10 years ago. He still practices it himself. He stated that the Eastern and Western lifestyles are considerably different and Westerners knees aren't generally prepared to do suwari waza or shikko.

Lyle Laizure
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:22 PM   #55
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: Is Ukemi Destroying our bodies?

If don't properly I don't think ukemi causes issues. I think its important to start slowly and work your way up. But like others have said I'm no doctor.

Lyle Laizure
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:49 PM   #56
niall
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Re: Is Ukemi Destroying our bodies?

I agree with Lyle about suwari waza. It's not going to strengthen your knees...

But I think there are some cool benefits to ukemi apart from keeping you safe and confident:

1.Ukemi takes you out of a two-dimensional world (with your eyes always on your eye-level plane) and makes you a three-dimensional being (Larry said something about ukemi being good for the nervous system).

2.The impacts are a kind of massage for your body too.

3.Ukemi feels wonderful! Being thrown by a good tori who has captured that perfect moment is like flying.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


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Old 04-30-2010, 01:09 PM   #57
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Re: Is Ukemi Destroying our bodies?

Quote:
Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post
Homma Sensei wrote an essay regarding suwari waza some time back. It may be on his web site somewhere but what I took from it is this...practicing suwari waza/shikko does not necisarily strengthen your knees. If a person doesn't already have good muscles around their knees doing shikko/suwari waza will cause more damage. Doing shikko/suwari waza with the mindset that if you practice them they will strengthen your knees is not smart. In his essay Homma Sensei said he quit teaching suwari waza over 10 years ago. He still practices it himself. He stated that the Eastern and Western lifestyles are considerably different and Westerners knees aren't generally prepared to do suwari waza or shikko.
I don't necessarily think it strengthens the knees. But core muscles. It helps us learn to move from our core.

MM
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:11 PM   #58
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Re: Is Ukemi Destroying our bodies?

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
Still not sure what a breakfall with legs crossed would look like.
I'm not sure if they are talking about the same cross legged breakfall as I am thinking, but in my previous style, we landed with our legs crossed. If you look at the breakfall video again, instead of their right leg being bent on the right side of their straight left leg, we would end up with our right leg bent on the left side of our left leg. In order to do this, we landed a more on our side though. The bend leg's foot would be to the outside of the straight leg. Your slap and your foot landing like that did a great job of taking the pressure out of the fall. I'm having a heck of a time learning NOT to cross my legs with breakfalls in aikido.... grr...

Also, it was taught that by landing with your legs crossed that way kept your groin closed off. The way I see people landing in aikido leaves the "goodies" wide open. Yikes.



This is close, except all he has to do is put his foot on the opposite side of the knee. I can't seem to find an image or video of it right now. If we were to land that way on our own (not being thrown), we would bring the slapping hand up to guard our face and his other hand would be behind his back covering his spine and groin. The men in our dojo never seemed to have a problem with this type of fall either. No banging or squishing complaints were ever made.

Maybe I can upload some pictures of me training in my old dojo sometime....

Last edited by ninjaqutie : 04-30-2010 at 01:24 PM.

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Old 04-30-2010, 01:14 PM   #59
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Re: Is Ukemi Destroying our bodies?

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Still not sure what a breakfall with legs crossed would look like.
I've seen it, and don't like it. I've seen so many guys wrack their jewels like that.

There are wide leg break falls I've seen work very well for the body. Also I was taught this tri-pod break fall. The tri-pod starts like a normal break fall, you don't throw yourself out, you aim down. And as you land you pop up on your heels and landing arm to support the lower back.

MM
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Old 04-30-2010, 04:56 PM   #60
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Re: Is Ukemi Destroying our bodies?

"That which does not kill us makes us stronger"

Friedrich Nietzsche

David
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Old 04-30-2010, 05:20 PM   #61
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Re: Is Ukemi Destroying our bodies?

I doubt that good soft ukemi will do you any harm what so ever. In the 1950s Kenshiro Abbe Sensei described ukemi as the perfect body massage. I agree with much of what my good friend Joe Curran Sensei says.
Bunny hops are not good for you, we did them every class in the 1950s. I recall telling Masahilo Nakazono that my knees were very painful, he said bunny hops were good for the knees
One of the most painful things in my old age is my ``new `` knees.
I instruct my teachers that bunny hops are out ! and suwariwazi is timed.
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Old 04-30-2010, 05:52 PM   #62
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Re: Is Ukemi Destroying our bodies?

Crossed leg breakfall? Not if you are male, or a male wearing a cup..must be a "Bunny Breakfall'' ...
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:31 PM   #63
Kevin Morrison
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Re: Is Ukemi Destroying our bodies?

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post

<Snip>

Also, it was taught that by landing with your legs crossed that way kept your groin closed off. The way I see people landing in aikido leaves the "goodies" wide open. Yikes.


<Snip>
This looks like the end of a side break fall or front shoulder roll without the stand up.
position 1: The position pictured (bottom leg forward, top leg back aka convenient leg position if lying on back ) means you won't squash your genitals in a side break fall with your own legs if you forgot to keep your legs abducted (knees apart).
position 2: The opposite position (top leg forward, bottom leg back aka legs crossed aka convenient leg position if lying on belly) or a variant of it (bottom knee bent, ankle kept off ground, top leg ready to kick/protect groin)

It appears better to fall/land in position 1, but position 2 gives better defensive options. Why not just switch from 1 to 2 AFTER the initial impact of the fall?
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:59 PM   #64
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Re: Is Ukemi Destroying our bodies?

Quote:
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Crossed leg breakfall? Not if you are male, or a male wearing a cup..must be a "Bunny Breakfall'' ...
That was sort of my point about the legs crossed thing. I've watched too many men regret ever learning it that way.

MM
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Old 04-30-2010, 10:02 PM   #65
ninjaqutie
 
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Re: Is Ukemi Destroying our bodies?

Men in my dojo never had a problem with it. I guess it just depends on how you learn it and what you are used to.

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Old 04-30-2010, 10:15 PM   #66
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Re: Is Ukemi Destroying our bodies?

Quote:
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Men in my dojo never had a problem with it. I guess it just depends on how you learn it and what you are used to.
I had a bad joke about getting used to infertility, but I digress.

MM
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Old 04-30-2010, 11:08 PM   #67
dps
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Re: Is Ukemi Destroying our bodies?

Well if you did # 2 fall you will naturally ( the men that is ) curl up in a fetal position and cry like a baby thus protecting the groin area from further injury.

David
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Old 05-01-2010, 03:34 AM   #68
raul rodrigo
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Re: Is Ukemi Destroying our bodies?

I once did a breakfall where my legs crossed accidentally. It has never happened again. Pain is a good teacher.
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Old 05-01-2010, 04:50 AM   #69
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Re: Is Ukemi Destroying our bodies?

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
I once did a breakfall where my legs crossed accidentally. It has never happened again. Pain is a good teacher.
When I first started aikido, I remember getting koshinage done on me by someone who didn't know I was a beginner. The local term for my ‘natural' way of taking the ukemi was "a knacker-cracker".

Brings tears to my eyes just thinking about it...
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