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Old 04-23-2010, 02:43 PM   #51
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Aikido For Dummies: Desperation, period.

[quote=Mary Malmros;256222]
Nose, eyebrows and chin are not joints.QUOTE]

Really?
Gee, you truly learn something in this dojo lol
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Old 04-23-2010, 02:57 PM   #52
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Aikido For Dummies: Desperation, period.

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
He has more than once noted that it is not just sheer brute fighting he is after. it is not just to beat the snot out of someone or to get the snot beat out of him he is looking for. He is looking for aikido, just not YOUR aikido.
Thank you for having read those parts Cherie.
I can't dispel this impression in those who ascribe to me the intention to hurt, but at least I can see that I am not writing something so utterly incomprehensible that nobody reads it.

Boxing without a sparring partner would be unconceivable. You work on the bag, you shadowbox, but then, everyday, you are sparring. It's there that you really get the guts of the thing out of the ideogram.

My limited intelligence fully grasps that aikido doesn't punch - yet, it could still do sparring as an invaluable part of a daily training. Aikido sparring. That's why I (maybe under a misconception) mentioned randori.

Fighting without fighting is no fighting at all.
And, once engaged, you're engaged. It's not a matter of throwing a lucky sankyo on a drunkard and then rushing to tell your friends over and over again. It's a matter of delaing with a competent engagement deliberately and violently, vehemently intent on mauling you badly, suddenly, repeatedly.
If a martial art forgets that's its goal, it has missed the only earthly criterion that can tell: your spirit now dominates matter.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 04-23-2010 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 04-23-2010, 03:13 PM   #53
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Aikido For Dummies: Desperation, period.

perhaps I should add how grateful I am to all of you.
Really.
Included those who disagreed with me - no problem.
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Old 04-23-2010, 07:34 PM   #54
lbb
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Re: Aikido For Dummies: Desperation, period.

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
Mary... why do you always seem to be so angry?

From my perspective what he was trying to say is...."you are not understanding what it is I am trying to say."
Cherie,

You've taken a reasonable objection to being referred to as willfully ignorant and mischaracterized it as "always [being] angry". His words: "You just refuse to see it, and I can't open the eyes of somebody who wants to keep them closed." That's very different from what you just said.
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Old 04-23-2010, 07:45 PM   #55
lbb
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Re: Aikido For Dummies: Desperation, period.

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
Fighting without fighting is no fighting at all.
And, once engaged, you're engaged. It's not a matter of throwing a lucky sankyo on a drunkard and then rushing to tell your friends over and over again. It's a matter of delaing with a competent engagement deliberately and violently, vehemently intent on mauling you badly, suddenly, repeatedly.
If a martial art forgets that's its goal, it has missed the only earthly criterion that can tell: your spirit now dominates matter.
But this is the problem, Alberto -- aikido was created decades ago by a man who is now dead, and whose ideas and concepts have come to us in forms that are rarely unambiguous. It isn't at all clear that "fighting" was the goal of O-Sensei's martial art, at all -- get ten aikidoka together, and you'll have twelve opinions on that one. And, even if you were to accept that as unquestioned, there's still the rather large issue of the right method to get there -- whether you should start with the most realistic possible applications on day one, or develop other things first.

So who gets to say what the "goal" of aikido is? The one who shouts the loudest and bullies the most effectively? The one who drops names and pulls rank the best? Or maybe, given that we were not handed some kind of unambiguous "this is the goal of aikido" document, in which all terminology is quite clear, we need to grant ourselves and each other a certain leeway in figuring out what that goal is. And let's not forget, "aikido" doesn't have a goal. "Aikido" has no body, no will, no brain -- it does not act on itself. The people, dojos and organizations that are part of it may all have goals...but it strikes me as futile to try and establish what the "goal" of aikido is, and pointless to try and arm-twist others into accepting your goals as theirs.
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Old 04-23-2010, 07:55 PM   #56
Shadowfax
 
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Re: Aikido For Dummies: Desperation, period.

This comparison also stuck in my head today but I didn't have the time on my lunch break to comment on it.

Mary's discussion about white water rafting...

Its a great analogy but it does not quite fit the situation. If the OP were someone completely new to martial arts yeah maybe. But he's not new to martial arts, he's new to aikido. He understands there is inherent risk. He accepts the risk and has previous training that will help him, that another newcomer might not have.

Suppose someone comes to WWR who has previous experience doing something like say IDK speed boat racing. I don't know enough about boating to know what would be a comparably dangerous water sport.

Putting in into my own perspective as an equestrian.

Say I have a highly trained Reining horse. (western...cowboy hats and sliding stops and all that stuff) and someone comes to me who has only ever been led around on a gentle pony ride. Sure I would not let them get on my super sensitive, unforgiving, reactive, powerful, experienced rider only, horse and just go for a ride. They could get very hurt when the horse responds as trained.

But say a very experienced Dressage horse (English rider, fancy dance steps and all that) rider comes to me and wants to ride. I would feel comfortable letting them on my horse because even though they might not know all the moves just so they would at least have had training to help them stay in the saddle safely while they figgured it out.

I have actually seen just such circumstances in play with some highly skilled horse trainers swapping rides in the middle of a performance.

In the dojo where I train I started out on the same day as one other person.

I entered the dojo with zero past experience in anything resembling a martial art. He had a high degree of skill in another martial art. I spent months just learning how to roll without pulling something. He needed to work on some things but could take ukemi without damage. Certainly he was permitted to join the more advanced classes far sooner than I was. Why? His previous experience did not necessarily make him good at aikido but it did make him less likely to get injured while doing aikdo.

In that perspective I really don't see why it should be so objectionable that this newbie to aikido wants to train a bit harder than what most beginners are given.

Last edited by Shadowfax : 04-23-2010 at 07:57 PM.
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Old 04-23-2010, 08:33 PM   #57
Rob Watson
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Re: Aikido For Dummies: Desperation, period.

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
Ok let's make a more visual example:

these guys ina real fight are going to be wiped off instantly:
http://www.vimeo.com/3384550

Instead, these guys are going to stand and last:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB01hhonf8Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8mZo3Qn4ww

I hope this clarifies a bit possible misunderstanding. because I really have a background in fighting and I can tell you, the guys in the first video are going to incur into serious damage if confronted with a real danger.
Let's just chalk this up to a language problem. The first clip is a university club - I only have ever been in one of these and it was nothing like the clip but then again I would not be surprised if the clip is fairly representative as I would consider such a club more along the lines of a social club- my 'data set' is small so I can go either way here.

The other two clips are actually pretty much different beasties (from each other) and still not quite like my experience. The #2&3 clips both have quite a few finishing moves that are not what the OP is looking for so I'm confused as to why the OP likes what he sees there. I guess I'm lucky (yes Maggie, Shibata Ichiro will teach one some interesting stuff -that is the one Shibata I know) since I've only had very high level instructors.

I do recall an interesting bit from another boxer/grappler named Tennenhouse (sp?) and I hope he has healed well and fully. I think he may have changed his mind a bit after the fun at the expo.

Really, imagine going to a boxing gym and seeing rope jumping, shadow boxing and speed bag work ... what do you think the impression of the fighting abilities of that methodology? If one did not know anything about the training method the impression would not be so great I'll wager. Now consider the goal of aikido training to be takemusu aiki but the training method is the kata that are techniques of aikido. To mistake the training drills and conditioning drills that are the kata, etc. for the result (talemusu aiki) one would not get a very good impression of that methodology either. I don't care what ones fighting backgrounds is if one expects to get to takemusu aiki right after shodan (or sooner) then there will be some disappointments in the future. Not to mention the masses of folks that have been trained as boxers but how many Ali or Dempsey are there ? Why expect more from aikido?

If someone wants to learn about real combat then the armed forces are the place to go as that is their profession. Anything short is a fantasy so one must be honest with ones self.

Meh, what do I know ... I can barely make through kids class without a nervous breakdown.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 04-24-2010, 04:58 AM   #58
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Aikido For Dummies: Desperation, period.

Ok.

Now, let's set aside two worst case scenarios:
1) you are not going to be attacked by more competent attackers at once (maybe even armed - though a boxer might frame even 4 or 5 unarmed and utterly uncompetent attackers, a competent boxer cannot handle more than two foes at once if those foes know how to fight, and also in that case he admits he is in a complicated situation that may spin out of his control. In reral life more attackers attack simultaneously, though the idea aikidokas may have of "simultaneous" is somewhat romantic)
2) you're not going to be attacked suddenly. If I'd have an issue with you say in a bar, I would leave you alone letting you think you had your way, and I will keep checking on you being sure i'm out of your direct sight. After 2 hours, when you don't think about it anymore and I let you gulp a few more drinks, without saying a word you would find me hitting you vehemently out of the blue. That's how a bastard in a bar would behave. This is why I quit going to bars lol.

These 2 scenarios are not ours.

Let's imagine instead 1 unarmed but competent attacker (not Mike Tyson: you won't need that to have a serious problem), who for some silly reason is giving to you forewarnings of his intentions (a truly good fighter doesn't talk much, though - and this exactly and INTENTIONALLY because he doesn't want to prepare you...).

Do you know how fast a jab is when thrown at you competently? It's something that lasts much less than a second, probably about a couple of tenths of a second, and it lands nvariably at the second attempt if you're standing still (oh! two consecutive jabs... amazing! lol). Now, people unused to combat may think that the attacker lands a blow and then stays there watching in bewilderment what happens or that he waits to see you falling or because he may believe that suffices. That's not what how it is going to be.

The guy who attacks you knows what happens, so he has no need to stay here a few seconds resting in order to contemplate his handiwork.
Therefore, in maybe a second you will find at least 4 blows landing on your face, and you will find more and more coming your way without pauses in between, and darting against you from several directions that you won't see clearly in the least because a competent attacker uses combinations of blows that are not invented on the spot but tested already in combat.

If you have never been competently hit on your face in a combat, maybe you have no idea how it is. If you have, you will know I'm telling the truth.
Firstly, it is not really painful as one may think (although since you're not wearing boxing gloves, you will find yourself with a broken lip instantly, and probably also with a broken tooth - this normally at the first blow already), however you will feel the taste of your blood in your mouth and you will realize your lip has open at least internally - if it never happened to you before, this already will cause to you a tendency to cringe and lift your hands to your mouth instead then fighting back immediately, or bend on yourself (for instance) but you won't have any time to concentrate on your sensations - for you will be being repeatedly hit on your ears as you bend, and uppercuts will start looking for your nose and lips again as more hooks will land on your ears making you experience funny variations of pressure. At this stage, or maybe even at the very first blow if delivered on your chin, you will start experiencing something you didn't know it exists: you will be unable to see for fractions of a second: you will witness mysterious flashes of light as if somebody were sweeping a torch beam right in front of your nose to make you blind. At the same time, if you are standing, you will feel that your ankles utterly fail to you. That is a cerebral concussion what you're living: your FIRST one?

As you are concentrated (and probably terribly frightened because you have no previous criterion to evaluate the degree of damage that may have been inflicted on you) trying to understand what is going on, you will be devastated if you have never been in a real fight before. If you didn't already, the mere fact your ankles are starting to fail to you will cause you to fall on the ground: you are probably going to hit the floor with your knee first (or maybe you feel both ankles fail, and you fall down like an emptied bag carried by a wirlwhind and you will understand there was a cognitive gap between the sensation of the blow and the funny fact you now see a floor), and since you have been engaged in a regular street fight, nobody will call in a referee to brush your opponent aside: in the next 2 seconds you will witness about 12 more blows landing on your face. Once on the ground the guy won't kick you in the face or on your body, though he could, but will be on top of you (god forbids that you fell prone, exposing your backbone!) and will start beating your exposed face with direct blows, this round delivered mostly with his strongest arm.

And do not think your atemi will do something to him: your attacker is used to see combinations of blows coming his way and actually hitting him and he knows how not to get scared by them; if you flash a hand before his nose, he won't simply care. A boxer crosses your jabs with his ones without stopping or losing his orientation, let's figure your atemi. A competent attacker is ready to take some punishment in order to get at you.

This is a somewhat realistic account (at least as far as my writing allows) of what you may experience and find yourself into if an attacker who is used to fight engages you.

Now, my concern is: how many aikidokas ever thought that their skills are ultimately meant to be confronted with this? And if not with this, I refuse to accept that a beautiful martial art as Aikido is all about demonstrations.

Combat is a serious thing.
I am not (NOT) advocating that our aikidokas ought to beat themselves in the dojos. Why a few can't understand this?
I am telling a different story altogether: I am wondering whether we are aware that most dojos make no effort AT ALL to make their pupils ready for this scenario. At no stage, simply.

I am sure a good aikidoka might stand a chance - I am not joking.
But if we keep training them like we do, namely facing 100% fictional attacks that do not even reproduce the actual speed of an attack and how it will keep coming several times within a second, if our aikidokas are never offered on a regular basis the chance to move within the speed of a real attack (without lading the actual blows, of course!) and if we keep them fighting with ukes who have only one arm, and that place it conveniently for you, and never withdraw it for charging the second attack, most of them will think that the iriminage they do is going to save them from such a frontal attack.

This is why the black belt that attacked me was puzzled that I just dodged without doing the techniques: we arrived there from two different paths. He thought an attack was a one thrust thing; instead I was ready to see a guy who kept coming.

Maybe because I had this background; but to me, who long ago have been hit by determined attackers, it is utterly impossible to practice aikido without remembering how a real attacker would confront me.

I take this occasion to thank you all. If I would not appreciate your answers, and all the perspectives you bring in, I wouldn't be here. So, even if I don't mention you one by one, consider as if I have thanked you all. I do read your posts, and I do appreciate your time and efforts.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 04-24-2010 at 05:01 AM.
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Old 04-24-2010, 06:34 AM   #59
phitruong
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Re: Aikido For Dummies: Desperation, period.

this teacher (passed away recently) had background in boxing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vyxbv...eature=related watch how he moved. learn the principles behind aikido then make it your own.

have you thought of because you have been hit in the past, your mind and body already imprinted certain ways of moving, that is you mind and body are fixed, no longer fluid? no longer open to other possibilities?

btw, when dealing with boxers, i don't trade jabs. i usually drop and take out the legs.
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Old 04-24-2010, 08:03 AM   #60
C. David Henderson
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Re: Aikido For Dummies: Desperation, period.

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
(yes Maggie, Shibata Ichiro will teach one some interesting stuff -that is the one Shibata I know)


And one of the things he instills in students is a certain concentration on where he is and what he's doing all the time he's on the mat -- for reasons to which I believe Maggie has alluded.


David Henderson
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Old 04-24-2010, 04:14 PM   #61
RED
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Re: Aikido For Dummies: Desperation, period.

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post


And one of the things he instills in students is a certain concentration on where he is and what he's doing all the time he's on the mat -- for reasons to which I believe Maggie has alluded.

That man strikes terror in me! I imagine the Jaws theme playing while you are training... wondering where he might be, hoping he won't strike.

But seriously:

The image of Aikido might be a bit broken.
For example this video clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k_uumIQ1uk

What this man is describing Aikido to be is a misrepresentation of what Aikido really is. What this man is describing Aikido as is what you see in a Steven Seagal movie. Grabbing punches out of the air? Seriously? People think that's what Aikido is? I'm sorry, but if your Sesnei is teaching you that grabbing strikes with your fingers in mid-air is proper technique then you have a major issue. And if your sensei is teaching you to lose your extension to do some half-assed joint manipulations up close you might have a bigger issue. (I'm sorry, but grabbing anything directly is incorrect according to everything I've been taught. The first point of contact if going for a grab with a strike is always the blade side of the hand, forearm, or wrist.. prettying much anything than your delicate fingers that can miss an object easily, you never just pluck something out of the air. Nor would an Aikidoka give up his extension for a joint lock. I think that's abandoning an Aikido principle. IMO)

I've seen what people are calling Aikido on the web. I'm seeing a lot of videos of 7th kyu poorly executing what they think is a Sankyo bull headedly on their BJJ friends, and getting their butts kicked. People think movies and youtube videos red necks take in their basements are what Aikido is. There is too much bad Aikido out there, and too much stuff being called Aikido that isn't Aikido.

I think Aikido is a miss understood art, and a rarely practiced art. I think there are fewer Aikido dojo out there than there are dojo that claim to be Aikido.

MM
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