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Old 08-17-2009, 11:45 AM   #1
MM
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How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

From here:

http://www.taoistinstitute.com/pdfs/...mea-Lefiti.pdf

Quote:
Part of the characteristics of Mok ga was the use of practical concepts from math, especially geometry. Tiny explained that if one truly understood the functional use of the square, circle, and triangle in combat, they would become a highly skilled fighter.
Does anyone know how these two concepts are related? Where was the origination of Ueshiba's usage of the square, circle, and triangle?
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Old 08-17-2009, 02:23 PM   #2
mathewjgano
 
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Re: How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
From here:

http://www.taoistinstitute.com/pdfs/...mea-Lefiti.pdf

Does anyone know how these two concepts are related? Where was the origination of Ueshiba's usage of the square, circle, and triangle?
I'm not sure, but I know they're major concepts in Shinto, representing a wide variety of relationships: http://tsubakishrine.org/aikido/index.html
The part I suspect is most applicable to waza is the -no-irimi mentioned in the index. How to articulate the differences I'm not so sure, but this video might help a little:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc3nrMBLWsY
I'm not sure which form of entry Barrish sensei is talking about, but at one point he says it's not the chokusen no irimi (square).

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:45 AM   #3
CitoMaramba
 
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Re: How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

From Traditional Aikido, Vol. 5, by Morihiro Saito Sensei:

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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Old 08-18-2009, 05:43 AM   #4
dps
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Re: How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

Triangular stance, circular movement, square hold.

David
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Old 08-18-2009, 06:09 AM   #5
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Re: How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

square: earth
circle: heaven
triangle: man
=> combining heaven and earth in man.
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Old 08-18-2009, 07:14 AM   #6
eyrie
 
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Re: How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

Here's a different, and to my mind, a far more practical interpretation, that I gleaned (read "stole") from a number of different (ahem! NON-Aikido) sources...

For those who want the quick answer...
[spoiler]
triangle = wedge
circle = wheel
square = lever
[/spoiler]

For those who want to think about it, it's to do with geometrical shapes AND the physical principle of such shapes....

Last edited by eyrie : 08-18-2009 at 07:17 AM.

Ignatius
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:34 AM   #7
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Re: How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

Take three totally different shapes, then ask people how they relate to each other and whatever other activity you are doing, and the proverbial can of worms is opened.

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Old 08-18-2009, 12:39 PM   #8
dps
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Re: How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

O'Sensei quote; http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/4449/shapes.html

"The body should be triangular, the mind circular.
The triangle represents the generation of energy and is the most stable physical posture.
The circle symbolizes serenity and perfection, the source of unlimited techniques.
The square stands for solidity, the basis of applied control."
--O Sensei

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_NkZKeeMmgk...cle_square.jpg

from; http://aikidoforbeginners.blogspot.c...le-square.html

David

Last edited by dps : 08-18-2009 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 08-28-2009, 01:15 PM   #9
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Re: How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

Aikido and the Triangle, Circle, Square
from, "Aikido - A Beginner's Guide" by Sensei Francis Dunken

http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1863
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Old 08-28-2009, 01:35 PM   #10
Rev.K. Barrish
 
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Re: How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

Triangle, Circle, Square

Three Principles - by Rev. Dr. Yukitaka Yamamoto

Shinto and Human Life
The principle of sanmi-sangen explains the mystery of life. Sanmi-sangen means the three elements that constitute the basis of all forms of existence. these basic symbols guide the destiny of human life. We can see sanmi-sangen operate at many levels, and it is the interaction of theselevels that can product forces that will work for the benefit and well-being of those who follow their lead - people whose behavior and thinking are characterized by the way of the Kami.

At the level of the Kami, Amaterasu-OmiKami, the deity of the Sun who lives in Takama-no-Hara, the Utopia of brightness, is principal aamong the three important parts of the cosmological dimension of existence. The sun is the source of life, of growth and of creativity. Without its heat, power and energy, life could not exist. Thus, the universe is totally dependent upon the primal force of the sun.

Tsukuyomi-no-mikoto, the Kami of the moon, is the guardian of night, the time of silent growth and development, the necessary complement to the day. The moon symbolizes these in its cycle: the new moon, the half moon, the full moon. the moon waxes and wanes as does life in the process of growth. Shinrabansho, or everything in nature, depends on the growth time of the moon, just as everything depends on the light and power of the sun.

Susanoo-no-mikoto, the deity of the stars, was given authority over the vastness of the ocean, unabara. Without water, the earth cannot live. The ebb and flow of the life is under higher governance and that governance is the destiny of man whose place is creation is described in Japanese by the expression banbutsu-no-reicho, the lord of everything under the sun.

These three, the deities of the sun, moon, and stars, are called the san-ko, the three lights and their existence is fundamental for all forms of life in the universe.

When spring comes all the flowers begin to bloom towards summer, insects begin to appear, birds sing and human beings begin to move in response to their Ki, power or energy. Spring is naturally the time of romance when love blossoms, people marry, and the soul of man enters the female spirit and body and new life comes into being. The flow of all things is from the gaseous state to the liquid and then to the solid. Ki generates feeling which turn into solid. Ki generates feelings which turn tot he liquid forms of love and then the solid forms of birth and reproduction. Thus nature flows eternally and is as we know it. In Shinto symbolism, the triangle symbolizes the gaseous, the circle symbolizes the liquid, and the square smbolizes the solid.

This symbolism encompasses all aspects of cosmic and earthly existence, showing how life is built and governed and how its destiny should flow. The Buddhist expression for this is rinne, transmigration of the sould, samsara in Sanskrit.

To have meaning life must have balance between mission and destiny. We must think quite deeply about these. Mission has quite a specific meaning. If two people produce a child, this does not mean the presence of mission. The child who is not the product of mission and destiny is the child who will perhaps end up abandoned, whose conception and birth were not surrounded by the protective structures that the union of life, mission and destiny can produce. If these are present, however, that life can be nurtured properly and grow into the fulfillment of its own destiny. In addition that life, in union with another, will continue its natural flow, projecting life into the future, united in mission and destiny, according to Kannagara. So the generations are born and life ceaselessly flows.

Mission Life Destiny

Sangen in Daily Ife
Sangen, the rule of three main factors, works at the level of everyday life and at the level of human destiny. In every shrine, offerings to the Kami on sambo (offering stand), include certain items apart from sake, vegetables and fruits - namely salt, rice and water. the offerings, called shinsen, presents the basis of life.

For Japanese, life has been based on rice and rice requires water for growth. The ancient Japanese knew the power of water to make rice grow. The Shinto terms minaoshi (forward) and kikinaoshi (obedient) contain the secrets of how that power was harnessed.

Water in a bottle can be passive and obedient, but uncontained, water can be a torrent tearing down trees and destroying walls. Water can fertilize and stimulate growth. If people could live like creative water, they would find life less tiring. The flexibility of water is a great lesson.

Allied to the role of water and of equal importance is time and timing. The shrine's nenchu gyoji - schedule of rituals - covers the entire year, and each stage in life. Shinto is very time conscious. What is the most important aspect of human existence? Some might answer, "life," but I would say, "time," because life is very much a sequence of events.

These events follow in order, and that order cannot be changed. Cherry blossoms will not appear in December. No matter how much you may wish to see them, you have to wait until spring. That is their time. Time is perhaps why Japanese are so time conscious. Time you cannot see, but it is time that enables us to understand the processes of nature. This is turn encourages us to feel thankful. Thankfulness is important in Shinto because it expresses our repectful dependence on the powers that determine the flow of our lives.

Discontentment will lead only to frustration. If there is one word or one sentiment that should govern our way of thinking and that expresses the true spirit of Kanngara, it is the Japanese term Kansha - simply giving things to the powers that make people their care and that assist them in reaching the true greatness of spirit they were born to know.

Iku Musubi
Gas
Mission
Future
Sword
Stars
Salt
Intellect
Truth
Nervous System
Sankaku-no-Irimi Taru Musubi
Liquid
Life
Present
Jewel
Moon
Water
Emotion
Virtue
Circulatory System
En-no-Irimi Tamatsume Musubi
Solid
Destiny
Past
Mirror
Sun
Rice
Will
Beauty
Digestive System
Chokusen-no-Irimi *This symbol and chart
are the exclusive property
of Tsubaki O Kami Yashiro
and are not to be printed or
reproduced without expressed
permission.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excerpts from a letter written by Rev. Koichi Barrish in response to a question about Sankaku Maru Shikaku.

May I share this information from Ise-noKuni Ichi-no-Miya, Sarutahiko Daihongu Tsubaki O Kami Yashiro?

In his book Kami no Michi, Rev. Dr. Yukitaka Yamamoto, the 96th generation High Priest (Guji) wrote:

"The Principle of 'Sanmi-Sangen' explains the mystery of life. Sanmi-Sangen means the three elements that constitute the basis of all forms of existence. These basic symbols both explain the meaning of and guide the destiny of human life. We can see Sanmi-Sangen operate at many levels."

In Shinto cosmology, the relates to "Gogyo Gogen." Following the blueprints created by the Amatsu (heavenly) Kami, the Kunitsu (earthly) Kami made the "Ki" of trees, fire, soil, gold and water. Gas turns to be a liquid and a solid , while a solid turns to a liquid and gas . This transformation (Kami Musubi - a Fire & Water Knot [Musubi = Tie where existence and non-existence are unified]), is holographically mirrored in the aiki waza of Ueshiba O'Sensei.

Archetypically, aiki progresses as follows:

1.triangle -
Sankaku-no-irimi: Sankakutai - the hanmi prior to deai (initial physical contact) . Establishment of angle and radius of entry (triangle) is power of harmonization.
2.circle -
En-no-irimi: The spiralic movements (omote and ura) of aiki technique
3.square -
Chokusen-no-irimi: The explosive power (shunpatsu rokyu) of a kokyu nage like extension and the expanding echo (zanshin) or osae waza (pinning technique)
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Old 08-28-2009, 05:21 PM   #11
Lyle Bogin
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Re: How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

I asked Imaizumi Sensei this once. He said "If we are talking about just aikido, then the square is the basics, the foundation, the circle is tenkan, and the triangle is irimi." He talked about this when he opened up for one of the aiki expo demos as well.

"The martial arts progress from the complex to the simple."
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Old 08-29-2009, 12:44 AM   #12
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Re: How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

The actual answer, direct from Ueshiba's lips, is printed in Ellis' book.

-Doug Walker
光道館・叢雲道場
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Old 08-29-2009, 05:42 PM   #13
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Re: How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

"You have noticed that everything an Indian does in in a circle, and that is because the Power of the World always works in circles, and everything tries to be round. In the old days when we were a strong and happy people, all our power came to us from the sacred hoop of the nation, and so long as the hoop was unbroken, the people flourished. The flowering tree was the living center of the hoop, and the circle of the four quarters nourished it. The east gave peace and light, the south gave warmth, the west gave rain, and the north with its cold and mighty wind gave strength and endurance. This knowledge came to us from the outer world with our religion. Everything the Power of the World does is done in a circle. The sky is round, and I have heard that the earth is round like a ball, and so are all the stars. The wind, in its greatest power, whirls. Birds make their nests in circles, for theirs is the same religion as ours. The sun comes forth and goes down again in a circle. The moon does the same, and both are round. Even the seasons form a great circle in their changing, and always come back again to where the were. The life of a man is a circle from childhood to childhood, and so it is in everything where power moves. Our teepees were round like the nests of birds, and these were always set in a circle, the nation's hoop, a nest of many nests, where the Great Spirit meant for us to hatch our children."

Black Elk of the Sioux
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Old 04-18-2010, 03:37 PM   #14
dps
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Re: How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

Triangle the sacrum or bottom tip of backbone.



Circle pelvis where sacrum is suspended in.



Not sure about the square.

http://www.biotensegrity.com/hang_in_there.php

"The sacrum suspends as a compression element within the musculo-ligamentous envelope and transfers its loads through that tension network. Even when a person stands on one leg, the sacrum sits within its tension network. This tension network provides omni directional structural stability, independent of gravity and hierarchical. The rim could distribute its load, rather than locally loading the forces at a point."



David
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Old 04-18-2010, 10:26 PM   #15
Rennis Buchner
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Re: How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Where was the origination of Ueshiba's usage of the square, circle, and triangle?
Where exactly Ueshiba got his from I cannot say, but I have seen circle, square and triangle appear together with two other symbols (straight line and an L shaped wedge) in a few other ryuha of much older vintage than aikido, so the symbols are not unknown elsewhere. I recall Karl Friday discusses the five in terms of how Kashima Shin-ryu understands them briefly in his book Legacies of the Sword. My own ryu also makes use of the to pass on certain principles. Where Ueshiba adopted them from is another matter though. Perhaps he knew of the original set of five and did away with the other two? Perhaps he got them from somewhere else in just the simple set of three? Maybe he made the whole thing up? (shrugs)

Rennis
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Old 04-19-2010, 07:58 AM   #16
MM
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Re: How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

Thank you for the post. It would certainly seem that Ueshiba "borrowed" the circle, triangle, square theme from somewhere else. Which leads to the questions of just where (which is hard to answer) and how much did he change in their meaning (probably even harder to answer)?
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Old 04-21-2010, 11:37 AM   #17
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Re: How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

People interpret this in many ways of course. My experience of it is different. For me has to do with the progression of form, energy, and a balance of Yin and Yang.

At the basic level, an encounter (for Nage) starts from the square - grounded, and receptive and perceptive on all sides for the movement and energy to evolve in any direction. This is more of an embracing, Yin state.

As an intention begins to be manifested (by Uke), one responds in a triangular fashion - enter, pivot, whatever, it is all in dynamic alignment with a triangular orientation and movement, which is more of a responsive, Yang state.

As this process and interaction evolves toward completion, Kuzushi and then resolution come about through circular/spherical movements which resolve the intention and energy in a balanced, neutralizing fashion; not Yin, not Yang.

Square -> Triangle -> Circle (Sphere) -> Square…. etc.

This is reflective of a deeper, spiritual process of the evolution of consciousness, and transcendence of duality through the conscious resolution of tension. It is the tension between polarities, Yin and Yang, that creates duality. The circle is the continual release of this tension into Unity, thus, all Aikido evolves into it.

Larry Novick
Head Instructor
ACE Aikido
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Old 04-21-2010, 06:56 PM   #18
gregstec
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Re: How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Triangle the sacrum or bottom tip of backbone.



Circle pelvis where sacrum is suspended in.



Not sure about the square.

http://www.biotensegrity.com/hang_in_there.php

"The sacrum suspends as a compression element within the musculo-ligamentous envelope and transfers its loads through that tension network. Even when a person stands on one leg, the sacrum sits within its tension network. This tension network provides omni directional structural stability, independent of gravity and hierarchical. The rim could distribute its load, rather than locally loading the forces at a point."



David
I just had another epiphany; which is the best excuse to drink more that no one will ever argue with you about is trying to understand David Skaggs or Erich Meade's posts.
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Old 04-21-2010, 11:26 PM   #19
Andrew Macdonald
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Re: How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

well here is my uneducated take on the square the triangle and the circle

square - basic movements forward and back, the basic way of dealing with force, meeting it head on

triangle - intermediate movements, cutting in to on coming forces

Circle - advanced movements accepting and blending with forces

within the circle the is also a triangle (that can start at any point round the circle) and the square

this can be seen on a whole body level or each individual limb or movements within movements
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Old 04-22-2010, 07:16 AM   #20
lbb
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Re: How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

beats
beats
beats

Child's play, really
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Old 04-22-2010, 09:05 AM   #21
MM
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Re: How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

There are threads here on Aikiweb that deal with the meaning of circle, triangle, and square. I was more interested in the origination of them by Ueshiba.
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Old 04-22-2010, 09:47 AM   #22
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Re: How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
There are threads here on Aikiweb that deal with the meaning of circle, triangle, and square. I was more interested in the origination of them by Ueshiba.
Ah - makes sense, in reading some earlier posts. I assumed from the title....

Larry Novick
Head Instructor
ACE Aikido
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Old 04-23-2010, 01:20 PM   #23
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

Quote:
Lawrence Koichi Barrish wrote: View Post
Triangle, Circle, Square

Three Principles - by Rev. Dr. Yukitaka Yamamoto

Shinto and Human Life
The principle of sanmi-sangen explains the mystery of life. Sanmi-sangen means the three elements that constitute the basis of all forms of existence. these basic symbols guide the destiny of human life. We can see sanmi-sangen operate at many levels, and it is the interaction of theselevels that can product forces that will work for the benefit and well-being of those who follow their lead - people whose behavior and thinking are characterized by the way of the Kami.

At the level of the Kami, Amaterasu-OmiKami, the deity of the Sun who lives in Takama-no-Hara, the Utopia of brightness, is principal aamong the three important parts of the cosmological dimension of existence. The sun is the source of life, of growth and of creativity. Without its heat, power and energy, life could not exist. Thus, the universe is totally dependent upon the primal force of the sun.

Tsukuyomi-no-mikoto, the Kami of the moon, is the guardian of night, the time of silent growth and development, the necessary complement to the day. The moon symbolizes these in its cycle: the new moon, the half moon, the full moon. the moon waxes and wanes as does life in the process of growth. Shinrabansho, or everything in nature, depends on the growth time of the moon, just as everything depends on the light and power of the sun.

Susanoo-no-mikoto, the deity of the stars, was given authority over the vastness of the ocean, unabara. Without water, the earth cannot live. The ebb and flow of the life is under higher governance and that governance is the destiny of man whose place is creation is described in Japanese by the expression banbutsu-no-reicho, the lord of everything under the sun.

These three, the deities of the sun, moon, and stars, are called the san-ko, the three lights and their existence is fundamental for all forms of life in the universe.

When spring comes all the flowers begin to bloom towards summer, insects begin to appear, birds sing and human beings begin to move in response to their Ki, power or energy. Spring is naturally the time of romance when love blossoms, people marry, and the soul of man enters the female spirit and body and new life comes into being. The flow of all things is from the gaseous state to the liquid and then to the solid. Ki generates feeling which turn into solid. Ki generates feelings which turn tot he liquid forms of love and then the solid forms of birth and reproduction. Thus nature flows eternally and is as we know it. In Shinto symbolism, the triangle symbolizes the gaseous, the circle symbolizes the liquid, and the square smbolizes the solid.

This symbolism encompasses all aspects of cosmic and earthly existence, showing how life is built and governed and how its destiny should flow. The Buddhist expression for this is rinne, transmigration of the sould, samsara in Sanskrit.

To have meaning life must have balance between mission and destiny. We must think quite deeply about these. Mission has quite a specific meaning. If two people produce a child, this does not mean the presence of mission. The child who is not the product of mission and destiny is the child who will perhaps end up abandoned, whose conception and birth were not surrounded by the protective structures that the union of life, mission and destiny can produce. If these are present, however, that life can be nurtured properly and grow into the fulfillment of its own destiny. In addition that life, in union with another, will continue its natural flow, projecting life into the future, united in mission and destiny, according to Kannagara. So the generations are born and life ceaselessly flows.

Mission Life Destiny

Sangen in Daily Ife
Sangen, the rule of three main factors, works at the level of everyday life and at the level of human destiny. In every shrine, offerings to the Kami on sambo (offering stand), include certain items apart from sake, vegetables and fruits - namely salt, rice and water. the offerings, called shinsen, presents the basis of life.

For Japanese, life has been based on rice and rice requires water for growth. The ancient Japanese knew the power of water to make rice grow. The Shinto terms minaoshi (forward) and kikinaoshi (obedient) contain the secrets of how that power was harnessed.

Water in a bottle can be passive and obedient, but uncontained, water can be a torrent tearing down trees and destroying walls. Water can fertilize and stimulate growth. If people could live like creative water, they would find life less tiring. The flexibility of water is a great lesson.

Allied to the role of water and of equal importance is time and timing. The shrine's nenchu gyoji - schedule of rituals - covers the entire year, and each stage in life. Shinto is very time conscious. What is the most important aspect of human existence? Some might answer, "life," but I would say, "time," because life is very much a sequence of events.

These events follow in order, and that order cannot be changed. Cherry blossoms will not appear in December. No matter how much you may wish to see them, you have to wait until spring. That is their time. Time is perhaps why Japanese are so time conscious. Time you cannot see, but it is time that enables us to understand the processes of nature. This is turn encourages us to feel thankful. Thankfulness is important in Shinto because it expresses our repectful dependence on the powers that determine the flow of our lives.

Discontentment will lead only to frustration. If there is one word or one sentiment that should govern our way of thinking and that expresses the true spirit of Kanngara, it is the Japanese term Kansha - simply giving things to the powers that make people their care and that assist them in reaching the true greatness of spirit they were born to know.

Iku Musubi
Gas
Mission
Future
Sword
Stars
Salt
Intellect
Truth
Nervous System
Sankaku-no-Irimi Taru Musubi
Liquid
Life
Present
Jewel
Moon
Water
Emotion
Virtue
Circulatory System
En-no-Irimi Tamatsume Musubi
Solid
Destiny
Past
Mirror
Sun
Rice
Will
Beauty
Digestive System
Chokusen-no-Irimi *This symbol and chart
are the exclusive property
of Tsubaki O Kami Yashiro
and are not to be printed or
reproduced without expressed
permission.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excerpts from a letter written by Rev. Koichi Barrish in response to a question about Sankaku Maru Shikaku.

May I share this information from Ise-noKuni Ichi-no-Miya, Sarutahiko Daihongu Tsubaki O Kami Yashiro?

In his book Kami no Michi, Rev. Dr. Yukitaka Yamamoto, the 96th generation High Priest (Guji) wrote:

"The Principle of 'Sanmi-Sangen' explains the mystery of life. Sanmi-Sangen means the three elements that constitute the basis of all forms of existence. These basic symbols both explain the meaning of and guide the destiny of human life. We can see Sanmi-Sangen operate at many levels."

In Shinto cosmology, the relates to "Gogyo Gogen." Following the blueprints created by the Amatsu (heavenly) Kami, the Kunitsu (earthly) Kami made the "Ki" of trees, fire, soil, gold and water. Gas turns to be a liquid and a solid , while a solid turns to a liquid and gas . This transformation (Kami Musubi - a Fire & Water Knot [Musubi = Tie where existence and non-existence are unified]), is holographically mirrored in the aiki waza of Ueshiba O'Sensei.

Archetypically, aiki progresses as follows:

1.triangle -
Sankaku-no-irimi: Sankakutai - the hanmi prior to deai (initial physical contact) . Establishment of angle and radius of entry (triangle) is power of harmonization.
2.circle -
En-no-irimi: The spiralic movements (omote and ura) of aiki technique
3.square -
Chokusen-no-irimi: The explosive power (shunpatsu rokyu) of a kokyu nage like extension and the expanding echo (zanshin) or osae waza (pinning technique)
Hi Sensei,
Thank you for that post. It's amazing how much misinformation there is on this subject and how that misinformation gets passed down through the generations of students once it enters the knowledge stream.

It's fine to arrive at ones own understanding of what these things mean through ones own training. That's what training is for. It is another thing to be blissfully unaware of what has gone before, what the understanding of these things has been to generations of people who understood these things on a far more sophisticated level.

Thanks for posting something that really has some deep content that one can try to connect to ones own practice. This is great material!

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 04-23-2010, 02:21 PM   #24
Allen Beebe
Location: Portland, OR
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Re: How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
There are threads here on Aikiweb that deal with the meaning of circle, triangle, and square. I was more interested in the origination of them by Ueshiba.
Hi George,

All very well and good, better (in most cases) to have more information to sort through than less. Still, I think Mark is looking for evidence of "the origination of them ( ) by Ueshiba." In other words, does anyone have direct evidence that Ueshiba drew from a specific source for his particular paradigm or direct evidence of his particular paradigm being unique unto him (and at what time), or a combination of both.

I am sure that you are aware that Triangle Circle Square stuff is not rare in Japan and isn't particularly rare outside of Japan even when one limits oneself to schools of Martial Arts specifically. Therefore, if one wishes to attribute meaning specifically originating from an individual, one had best be careful, or one will be subject to criticism for painting with an extremely broad brush. I'm guessing that Mark is trying to be careful. Hence the narrow question.

For example, if one were to research the variety of Omoto-kyo interpretations of these symbols that alone would not provide direct evidence that that was the primary source of Ueshiba's understanding, although it might very well help to narrow the field.

Ueshiba's own writing, of which I believe there is plenty, would be a good place to start looking. It is my understanding that the Ueshiba family is in possession of a significant store of this. I suppose if they thought it important to the future of Aikido, an effort would be made to have this material made public . . .

. . . just as one entrusts the future of one's training unquestioningly to one's sensei, so must we all trust that all that needs to be revealed/taught, has been revealed/taught, is being revealed/taught, and will be revealed/taught, when (and to whom) it is best . . . for Aikido. (Isn't that right Peter?)

Allen

p.s. George, I love you man, but when are you going to learn to stop this whole cowboy questioning thing, shut up and be assimilated? How can you expect to become "one with the universe when you keep standing on the outside asking, "What is the universe?"

p.p.s. Mark, Why do you want to know?

p.p.p.s. Bob, It's the patches. Forget the belts, forget the certificates, the adulation, respect, etc. It's all about the patches! BTW, that's the problem with Buddhism today . . . NO PATCHES!

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 04-23-2010, 02:27 PM   #25
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,170
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Re: How does this Square, Circle, Triangle relate to Aikido?

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Ueshiba's own writing, of which I believe there is plenty, would be a good place to start looking.
Good point. When did O'Sensei begin to talk about square, circle, triangle?
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