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Old 04-22-2010, 02:39 AM   #376
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Tim Fong wrote: View Post
Dan,
Without tucking the sacrum (i.e. tilting the pelvis), how are you generating the stretch of the "backside" of the body against the "frontside?"

Thanks,
Tim
Dammit, just got ahead of me.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
 
Old 04-22-2010, 07:23 AM   #377
DH
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Tucking the tailbone continually can lead to back problems. There are some well known internal guys with well known back problems! It's worth checking behind the scenes a little bit at who does what for a method and what their health and life is like!

Also (and more important to me) tucking when fighting and moving at speed is "all in" -something to avoid like the plague. Bringing power up/down. in/out should always be supported by other things (I would rather not go into here). If not, and you function with the hips and sacrum "all-in" you will be strong till you are gotten around or hit a stronger guy. Power releasing is not all the same. Doing certain things will get you caught by any grappler with the slightest sensitivity.

It is better to think of the sacrum as relaxed and stable and fluid, in-and-out itself, and then where and how it functions with musculature going round to the proverbial "center" and how that functions when the lower back draws on the psoas, which draws on the....? None of which requires a tuck.
And power down the front does NOT require tucking the tailbone to support the back line in my book. For that matter I don't even consider up and down without intent in other directions that are not requiring physical tensioning of the body. That ties in nicely with the differences in power releases. The result in feel is more fluid in supporting the back and loading and releasing in different ways where you never wind up as a one legged army bowed back guy or stuck on two feet and double weighted, or stuck on certain store and release ideas -which are great to demo but most good grapplers could feel it happening at its inception and either cancel it out or change positions. It's the same with joint locks and throw attempts. Some internal guys are just too obvious to ever be good fighters with it. They have power, sure, but......
There are ways to train to move that are much more subtle and hard to feel...till the opponent finds themselves done in.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 04-22-2010 at 07:26 AM.
 
Old 04-22-2010, 08:11 AM   #378
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Tucking the tailbone continually can lead to back problems. There are some well known internal guys with well known back problems! It's worth checking behind the scenes a little bit at who does what for a method and what their health and life is like!

Also (and more important to me) tucking when fighting and moving at speed is "all in" -something to avoid like the plague. Bringing power up/down. in/out should always be supported by other things (I would rather not go into here). If not, and you function with the hips and sacrum "all-in" you will be strong till you are gotten around or hit a stronger guy. Power releasing is not all the same. Doing certain things will get you caught by any grappler with the slightest sensitivity.

It is better to think of the sacrum as relaxed and stable and fluid, in-and-out itself, and then where and how it functions with musculature going round to the proverbial "center" and how that functions when the lower back draws on the psoas, which draws on the....? None of which requires a tuck.
And power down the front does NOT require tucking the tailbone to support the back line in my book. For that matter I don't even consider up and down without intent in other directions that are not requiring physical tensioning of the body. That ties in nicely with the differences in power releases. The result in feel is more fluid in supporting the back and loading and releasing in different ways where you never wind up as a one legged army bowed back guy or stuck on two feet and double weighted, or stuck on certain store and release ideas -which are great to demo but most good grapplers could feel it happening at its inception and either cancel it out or change positions. It's the same with joint locks and throw attempts. Some internal guys are just too obvious to ever be good fighters with it. They have power, sure, but......
There are ways to train to move that are much more subtle and hard to feel...till the opponent finds themselves done in.
Cheers
Dan
Hi Dan, interesting.

For the most part, my training now consists of conditioning the middle part, mainly the psoas are and the lower. I do that because I want to make that area strong enough to pull my punches (instead of bringing intent to the shoulders and punching from there or punching from the waist). Is this the area that initiates movement for you? Which means that (and maybe I'm doing this wrong) if I punch from this part of the body, there will be a tension in the middle. Do you get any of that? I mean, the up-down (energy in-out) thing you're talking about I think might require some physical tension in the body does it not? Increase tension in the middle means that most of the up-down action is in the middle. Do you distribute the tension throughout the body? If so where is the movement initiated?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
 
Old 04-22-2010, 04:09 PM   #379
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Hi Dan, interesting.

For the most part, my training now consists of conditioning the middle part, mainly the psoas are and the lower. I do that because I want to make that area strong enough to pull my punches (instead of bringing intent to the shoulders and punching from there or punching from the waist). Is this the area that initiates movement for you? Which means that (and maybe I'm doing this wrong) if I punch from this part of the body, there will be a tension in the middle. Do you get any of that? I mean, the up-down (energy in-out) thing you're talking about I think might require some physical tension in the body does it not? Increase tension in the middle means that most of the up-down action is in the middle. Do you distribute the tension throughout the body? If so where is the movement initiated?
"Conditioning" is a loaded word. I am not an advocate of the "tension path" idea I keep reading about. I avoid the feeling of tension altogether. There are different ideas of what constitutes IP/ aiki out there. I have seen and had detailed explanations of some of them from the source and have even practiced them for a while, but quickly rejected them as I didn't like what they were doing to my body. I like the soft approach as I think it delivers more power and ability to make change in the end.
.
Cheers
Dan
 
Old 04-22-2010, 05:06 PM   #380
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I am not an advocate of the "tension path" idea I keep reading about. I avoid the feeling of tension altogether.
I think you've heard something and misunderstood it, Dan. It doesn't refer to muscular tension. My understanding from a number of people is that your own 'approach' involves more muscular tension than I would recommend, so obviously we're doing fairly different things, in a lot of respects. Hope that clarifies the topic you brought up.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-22-2010, 06:27 PM   #381
gregstec
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
My understanding from a number of people is that your own 'approach' involves more muscular tension than I would recommend, so obviously we're doing fairly different things, in a lot of respects. Hope that clarifies the topic you brought up.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Gee, Mike, not sure where those 'people' are coming from, but in my experience and training with Dan, there is no muscular tension in any of his applied aiki.

Greg
 
Old 04-23-2010, 08:51 AM   #382
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I think you've heard something and misunderstood it, Dan. It doesn't refer to muscular tension. My understanding from a number of people is that your own 'approach' involves more muscular tension than I would recommend,
Regards,
Mike Sigman
Interesting. I...misunderstood nothing. I have been shown certain methods in detail and had follow up explanations from the source...in detail as well. I even tried them and stopped as I didn't like what it was doing to my body. It is not what I do or am interested in.
So, now
1. Tell me the people and the methods I am talking about?
My training involves muscular tension??
2. Tell me how and where.

Quote:
so obviously we're doing fairly different things, in a lot of respects. Hope that clarifies the topic you brought up.
Yes, we probably are. Tension is a poor training tool, even for identification of pathways and will get you caught and thrown; frequently in the hips and shoulders or them being hit due to their bodies being controlled by their arms. Intent and breath power is better. I don't personally like to go on what I have "heard" , but suit yourself. I've "heard" your approach has gotten you locked up by mid-level aikido guys and you could not get out. Any sort of tension will do that sort of thing to you as you will get caught in your wrist or arm instead of the whole body. My personal training has proved out well against TMA experts and western style fighters alike. So I remain convinced that soft is a better way to build connection for actual use in real fighting as well. Something you might discover for yourself someday. Since you freely admit you are just another fellow "amateur" like me, and you don't have fight experience with IP/Aiki it's understandable to have glitches along the way. I know I did.

Mike and I may disagree but overal I think soft is better.
FWIW, the real experts I have met who had power- advocated the soft approach as well; in solo training, movement drills, and martial movement as well. With rapid accelleration and changing, most people amp up, disconnect, isolate and then get caught. The way to avoid that is to train whole body connection in a soft manner then train statically, then take it out for a spin in freestyle. That's how you can better train to avoid getting caught, hit, thrown and locked up.
I think too many people going out to teach forget they are still students. "The one eyed man is king among the blind" sort of thing is not the way to go. I hope and trust people get out to meet some real experts in their fields. This is just amatuer hour debating among fellow students and researchers.
Good luck in your own search.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 04-23-2010 at 09:06 AM.
 
Old 04-23-2010, 11:29 AM   #383
Mike Sigman
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Interesting. I...misunderstood nothing. I have been shown certain methods in detail and had follow up explanations from the source...in detail as well.
Too bad Stephen J. Goodson took down his page "exposing" something I'd said about the "Teacher Test", based on what a couple of newbies thought they'd understood about a basic (not final) approach to a problem. You could learn from his efforts.
Quote:
I don't personally like to go on what I have "heard" , but suit yourself. I've "heard" your approach has gotten you locked up by mid-level aikido guys and you could not get out.
Sure, and I know the lardass with no skills that told you that. I often get "locked up" after I deliberately give a lock to someone and then watch (sometimes too long) in order to see how they use their body to effect a hold. I often get "pushed", too, while I observe how someone is using their body... but again, I give myself. If you want to say that proves something, you're as petty as your self-brags.
Quote:
Any sort of tension will do that sort of thing to you as you will get caught in your wrist or arm instead of the whole body. My personal training has proved out well against TMA experts and western style fighters alike.
Frankly, you need to go back to where I said you misunderstand and think about it. I know why you misunderstand and I'm not saying anything about it because I know, as I told you in the past, that these things come back to haunt later, some years after you've taught a lot of 'students' the wrong way to go.
Quote:
So I remain convinced that soft is a better way to build connection for actual use in real fighting as well.
I think we've discussed the "I am a fighter" noise fairly well in the past. You see the conundrum, I'm sure, in trying to mix a discussion about internal strength with who won what fights. As the Chinese always ask... "what big name fighters did you beat?".
Quote:
Something you might discover for yourself someday. Since you freely admit you are just another fellow "amateur" like me, and you don't have fight experience with IP/Aiki it's understandable to have glitches along the way. I know I did.

Mike and I may disagree but overall I think soft is better.
Well, good. Since it seems to be important to you to leave the impression that you're far advanced, I leave it to you.

Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 04-23-2010 at 11:35 AM.
 
Old 04-23-2010, 11:49 AM   #384
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

T-minus Jun. Marking.

Jun .... in 5, ... 4, ... 3, ... 2, ....

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 04-23-2010, 11:55 AM   #385
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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T-minus Jun. Marking.

Jun .... in 5, ... 4, ... 3, ... 2, ....
Damn, that is the first thing I read from Erick that I could understand
 
Old 04-23-2010, 12:04 PM   #386
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Too bad Stephen J. Goodson took down his page "exposing" something I'd said about the "Teacher Test", based on what a couple of newbies thought they'd understood about a basic (not final) approach to a problem. You could learn from his efforts. Sure, and I know the lardass with no skills that told you that. I often get "locked up" after I deliberately give a lock to someone and then watch (sometimes too long) in order to see how they use their body to effect a hold. I often get "pushed", too, while I observe how someone is using their body... but again, I give myself. If you want to say that proves something, you're as petty as your self-brags. Frankly, you need to go back to where I said you misunderstand and think about it. I know why you misunderstand and I'm not saying anything about it because I know, as I told you in the past, that these things come back to haunt later, some years after you've taught a lot of 'students' the wrong way to go. I think we've discussed the "I am a fighter" noise fairly well in the past. You see the conundrum, I'm sure, in trying to mix a discussion about internal strength with who won what fights. As the Chinese always ask... "what big name fighters did you beat?". Well, good. Since it seems to be important to you to leave the impression that you're far advanced, I leave it to you.

Mike Sigman
Mike I thought it wasn't about names? Why don't you spark the discussion and talk about why you think Dan is doing the internal power thing the wrong way? Not to show him out but to enlighten us on how to approach us 'amateurs' the right way to go about things.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
 
Old 04-23-2010, 12:10 PM   #387
Mike Sigman
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Mike I thought it wasn't about names? Why don't you spark the discussion and talk about why you think Dan is doing the internal power thing the wrong way? Not to show him out but to enlighten us on how to approach us 'amateurs' the right way to go about things.
Actually, if you go back in the AikiWeb archives a few years, you'll find where I've explained it several times. In terms of bringing up the subject, Dan brought it up while trying to take an oblique swipe, so get him to explain how the tension he's talking about affects "aiki". As I said, he's misunderstood something from someone he's de-briefed about my workshops.... the "tension" that someone was trying to talk about was more about tensegrity, but with a tensile connection method that not a lot of people know about.

Well, perhaps you know about it since you're a student of Ark's. Why don't you and Dan explain things? It's actually very germane to what "aiki" is.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-23-2010, 12:39 PM   #388
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Actually, if you go back in the AikiWeb archives a few years, you'll find where I've explained it several times. In terms of bringing up the subject, Dan brought it up while trying to take an oblique swipe, so get him to explain how the tension he's talking about affects "aiki". As I said, he's misunderstood something from someone he's de-briefed about my workshops.... the "tension" that someone was trying to talk about was more about tensegrity, but with a tensile connection method that not a lot of people know about.

Well, perhaps you know about it since you're a student of Ark's. Why don't you and Dan explain things? It's actually very germane to what "aiki" is.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
There's a whole archive of it, but can you tell me what's wrong with his approach in brief? You talk about about it being 'muscle-based', but I think you're basing this on hearsay and deductions from Dan's posts, but I doubt you're basing it on real information. I don't think you know what kind of exercises that Dan does. So I'm curious, how do I make the jump from his posts and hearsay to an assured opinion that his method is not 'internal' or that it's 'muscle-based'?

Also, just because I study Aunkai as a system, does not mean that I have to explain anything to you. I have my own moments when I'm explaining or discussing things for the purpose of aiding my own training, but yeah, I don't need to explain anything to you.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
 
Old 04-23-2010, 12:48 PM   #389
Mike Sigman
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Also, just because I study Aunkai as a system, does not mean that I have to explain anything to you.
No one said you had to explain anything, Lorel, but you're on a public forum and you've posted to this discussion on "Aiki". Why not toss in a few insights, as they relate to Aikido of course, on Aiki from the perspective of the Aunkai system?

Well, maybe it'd be better to post it to the non-Aikido forum, but I still think your sharp, analytical perspectives would be worth reading.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-23-2010, 12:55 PM   #390
Marc Abrams
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

I second Erick's prediction. It is very unfortunate that this topic is degrading to Dan and Mike taking it to a personal level. I can only hope that both of these gentleman who are very valuable to our community at large, can learn to stop at agreeing to disagree regarding ideas, beliefs and actions.

Taking these ideas, ideals and goals to the level of how we live our lives is ultimately more important that enacting them at a body level. Failings at this level results in the great things that people can teach us becoming lost amidst the personal rancor of petty disputes. I think Lorel is trying hard to place this thread back on track.

Marc Abrams
 
Old 04-23-2010, 01:10 PM   #391
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
I second Erick's prediction. It is very unfortunate that this topic is degrading to Dan and Mike taking it to a personal level. I can only hope that both of these gentleman who are very valuable to our community at large, can learn to stop at agreeing to disagree regarding ideas, beliefs and actions.

Taking these ideas, ideals and goals to the level of how we live our lives is ultimately more important that enacting them at a body level. Failings at this level results in the great things that people can teach us becoming lost amidst the personal rancor of petty disputes. I think Lorel is trying hard to place this thread back on track.
Actually, as I've said before, many threads weave on and off of a topic, Marc, and it's always surprising (as long as things stay on a reasonably civil level) how if you're patient enough, a few valuable nuggets come out of many threads that deviate off track.

Of course, nothing can come if no one really has anything to say about the topic and is really only interested in personal observations or oblique swipes.

There are a lot of people who are on record (archived) that they understand this topic as related to "Aiki" and it's worthwhile getting people to add their expertise to the discussion. The comment I made to Greg Steckel is one I've made before... if someone really understands the topic (in this case "Aiki"), they should be able to add to the definition in a way that at a minimum can use western science's perspective about how things work. Heck, even Tohei was able to describe being "unliftable" by saying "sink your middle". That's a lot better than someone saying "extend your ki".

My point is that everyone who's in the conversation should be able to contribute something of substance. What, for instance, is your take on approaching a consensus definition of "Aiki", using what you've learned from Ushiro Sensei and Dan?

Regards.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-23-2010, 01:37 PM   #392
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Actually, as I've said before, many threads weave on and off of a topic, Marc, and it's always surprising (as long as things stay on a reasonably civil level) how if you're patient enough, a few valuable nuggets come out of many threads that deviate off track.

Of course, nothing can come if no one really has anything to say about the topic and is really only interested in personal observations or oblique swipes.

There are a lot of people who are on record (archived) that they understand this topic as related to "Aiki" and it's worthwhile getting people to add their expertise to the discussion. The comment I made to Greg Steckel is one I've made before... if someone really understands the topic (in this case "Aiki"), they should be able to add to the definition in a way that at a minimum can use western science's perspective about how things work. Heck, even Tohei was able to describe being "unliftable" by saying "sink your middle". That's a lot better than someone saying "extend your ki".

My point is that everyone who's in the conversation should be able to contribute something of substance. What, for instance, is your take on approaching a consensus definition of "Aiki", using what you've learned from Ushiro Sensei and Dan?

Regards.

Mike Sigman
Mike:

I agree that valuable nuggets are obtained from these threads. That is why I supported Erick in asking you and Dan to refrain from personal attacks that result in Jun shutting threads down!

I am finding that I do not know what I do not know until I experience some of this stuff! Aiki, in my VERY LIMITED understanding from all of the people with whom I have and had trained with (not just Dan and Ushiro Sensei), can best be described as allowing the force of the attacker to pass through me, and/or allowing me to neutralize the force of the attacker, and/or allowing me to simultaneously use the attacker's energy as a direction into attacking the attacker. All of this happens while I am still capable of moving freely. I am discovering that in the beginning of this learning process, shisei, proper breathing, and not engaging in intentional muscle contraction is critical in experiencing these possibilities. I am working on expanding my knowledge and experience base so as to hopefully develop a deeper understanding that I can talk about. Right now, I have a lot of ideas that I am trying to flesh out.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Last edited by Marc Abrams : 04-23-2010 at 01:38 PM. Reason: addition
 
Old 04-23-2010, 01:53 PM   #393
Mike Sigman
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
I agree that valuable nuggets are obtained from these threads. That is why I supported Erick in asking you and Dan to refrain from personal attacks that result in Jun shutting threads down!
Jun will do what he will do.
Quote:
I am finding that I do not know what I do not know until I experience some of this stuff! Aiki, in my VERY LIMITED understanding from all of the people with whom I have and had trained with (not just Dan and Ushiro Sensei), can best be described as allowing the force of the attacker to pass through me, and/or allowing me to neutralize the force of the attacker, and/or allowing me to simultaneously use the attacker's energy as a direction into attacking the attacker. All of this happens while I am still capable of moving freely. I am discovering that in the beginning of this learning process, shisei, proper breathing, and not engaging in intentional muscle contraction is critical in experiencing these possibilities. I am working on expanding my knowledge and experience base so as to hopefully develop a deeper understanding that I can talk about. Right now, I have a lot of ideas that I am trying to flesh out.
Well, as I said, Dan misunderstands what the term "tensioning" refers to (in relation to what I've shown at workshops), but the point is that I certainly have nothing to do with muscular tension.

In terms of I.S. in general, there are a number of posts I've made on AikiWeb and other places where I've described exactly *why* you can't use muscular tension and have relatively "pure" internal strength. Basically, what happens when you interject, for instance, some shoulder strength into a simple push, you've changed the type of force and where it is sourced from. It's what the Chinese would refer to as "your qi rose upward".

However, that being said, most of the earlier discussion in this thread was about a definition of Aiki. Using Ueshiba's meeting with Tenryu as an example of a static usage of "aiki" would seem by far the best place from which to define "aiki". It's pointless to get into dynamic examples of what Aiki is because of the entry of other factors.

Some of the people in this thread think that "aiki" is defined by movement, breath, technique, and so on. I'd point again to Ueshiba and Tenryu. If Ueshiba did an "aiki" with Tenryu, then it's logical that "aiki" can be defined without getting into a study of dynamic encounters, right?

Besides, in my experience many people can do static examples of internal strength.... but when they start moving, no matter how well they can exhibit static examples of "ki tests", they go back to arms, shoulders, bulling through someone, technique, and so on. What I call "maybe good fighting, but a dead end for I.S. development".

But back to the point I previously made.... if someone really understands I.S. parameters, they should be able to at least roughly describe how their I.S. skills are done. That seems only logical, doesn't it?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-23-2010, 02:12 PM   #394
gregstec
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The comment I made to Greg Steckel is one I've made before... if someone really understands the topic (in this case "Aiki"), they should be able to add to the definition in a way that at a minimum can use western science's perspective about how things work. Heck, even Tohei was able to describe being "unliftable" by saying "sink your middle". That's a lot better than someone saying "extend your ki".

My point is that everyone who's in the conversation should be able to contribute something of substance. What, for instance, is your take on approaching a consensus definition of "Aiki", using what you've learned from Ushiro Sensei and Dan?

Regards.

Mike Sigman
Ok, Mike, you made that comment and I responded with more detail on how I extend ki, which I believe provided more detail than your comment of Tohei just dropping his middle for being unliftable. Along with my response, I posed some questions about mental intent, which I closely tied to extending ki in my process along with a layman's terms of how I do it. Now I do not profess I am an expert in this, just that I have had positive experience with it. So, in order to keep the conversation going and on track, what is your take on how you use and develop mental intent from a western physical perspective?

Greg

Last edited by gregstec : 04-23-2010 at 02:14 PM.
 
Old 04-23-2010, 02:37 PM   #395
Mike Sigman
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Ok, Mike, you made that comment and I responded with more detail on how I extend ki, which I believe provided more detail than your comment of Tohei just dropping his middle for being unliftable. Along with my response, I posed some questions about mental intent, which I closely tied to extending ki in my process along with a layman's terms of how I do it. Now I do not profess I am an expert in this, just that I have had positive experience with it. So, in order to keep the conversation going and on track, what is your take on how you use and develop mental intent from a western physical perspective?
Well, wait a sec. As I read your earlier post, you basically said that you "visualize" such-and-such and it works for you; then you indicated that you can't describe how it works in terms of a western-science paradigm. So I'm not sure how you provided a lot of detail. Having felt what you could do at a workshop, I'm sort of at a loss to find a real commonality with what we're talking about. I.e., I'm flummoxed and suggest that we all generally work (as best we can) within simple western-physics concepts.

The central idea is/was to try and develop some sort of consensus definition for "aiki", as per the O.P. My position is that a static example will best serve for a definition of actual "aiki", but we need to get a common language, so I'm suggesting we sort of aim for ideas that can be worked out with western-science being the base language.

Yes, I can define "intent" very clearly and pretty much how it works, but that's a different topic. Ask Dan to explain to you what it is.

Regards.

Mike
 
Old 04-23-2010, 03:05 PM   #396
DH
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
I second Erick's prediction. It is very unfortunate that this topic is degrading to Dan and Mike taking it to a personal level. I can only hope that both of these gentleman who are very valuable to our community at large, can learn to stop at agreeing to disagree regarding ideas, beliefs and actions.

Taking these ideas, ideals and goals to the level of how we live our lives is ultimately more important that enacting them at a body level. Failings at this level results in the great things that people can teach us becoming lost amidst the personal rancor of petty disputes. I think Lorel is trying hard to place this thread back on track.

Marc Abrams
Hello Mark
I appreciate the sentiment. Lets review:
I made comments about my own training experiences. In this case, specifically regarding the tension idea in internal and quasi-internal arts based on three different (undisclosed) arts methods and two teachers I dealt with.
None of which has anything to do wIth Mike Sigman

Mike being Mike, (he thinks all things internal draw unto him) he placed himself once again into a discussion where he had no place and does not belong (substance of his post unecessary)

My response; asking him to tell me a) Who I was discussing b) describe what it is I am doing- went unanswered, because he simply is unable to answer. I found it humorous.

The best resolution to your post is to ask Mike to never respond -to-me or -about- me. End of problem I do not engage Mike in anyway in my now limited time here-he engages me.

Lorel had it quite right; Mikes comments to me, and about me, are continuously negative and unsupported assertions and supposition that are meant to defame, so I respond.
With that, feel free to have a discussion with him about...whatever.
Take Care
Dan

Last edited by DH : 04-23-2010 at 03:16 PM.
 
Old 04-23-2010, 03:45 PM   #397
dps
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Hopefully this will give a place for those who are trying to push their ideas about "Aiki" to post some videos, to help clear up what it is that they are talking about.
The problem is that in threads like this one the same people can not accept any other model for explanation other than their own and try to dominate the subject and guide it to their way of thinking.

David
 
Old 04-23-2010, 04:20 PM   #398
gregstec
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well, wait a sec. As I read your earlier post, you basically said that you "visualize" such-and-such and it works for you; then you indicated that you can't describe how it works in terms of a western-science paradigm. So I'm not sure how you provided a lot of detail. Having felt what you could do at a workshop, I'm sort of at a loss to find a real commonality with what we're talking about. I.e., I'm flummoxed and suggest that we all generally work (as best we can) within simple western-physics concepts.
Well, I provided detail on a process that I follow using English; so in some form that was a western explanation - albeit, it does not meet your standards of a western paradigm - which is what exactly? - please provide a definition so we all can use that as a standard when responding to your questions.

As far as your workshop comment is concerned, we did not have a lot of hands on there - unfortunately, I could not stay for the whole session, but I believe the only time I had hands on you was in the beginning when you walked around and had people push on your chest to see if they could move you, and when I did that you said (and this is a quote) "Good, very good" as I moved you back a bit; which was not an extend ki thing but simply a dip of my center and then a simple wave back up into you - something I picked up from training with some aikijujutsu folks. Now based on that short contact, I do not think you have enough information to form much of any substantial opinion about my skills in this area. Other than those I train with and my current teachers, I do not care what anyone else thinks of my skills - but I do have issues with those that make assumptions based on incomplete information, or even old information.

In addition, I would just like to state that although no one on this web questions the level of your skill in this area, a common theme in most of your posts is you taking the superior position to others - I find this a bit arrogant. We are all on the path to understanding aiki and some on that path are ahead others and those that are ahead should not be looking back at those behind with arrogance, but more with a mentoring attitude. Now I know you are going to jump in here with "But Dan does that too" - maybe, but two wrongs don't make a right, and IMO, Dan only gets that way with those that openly state he is wrong - you have more of an "Equal Opportunity" approach to it.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Yes, I can define "intent" very clearly and pretty much how it works, but that's a different topic. Ask Dan to explain to you what it is.

Regards.

Mike
So, only you can ask questions and expect some answers?

I am sorry Mike, but IMO, you may have great aiki skills and you may be a great guy in person, but your internet personality sucks - I personally view your behavior in most cases no better than a sophisticated troll. Sorry, I tried stay neutral and objective, but I am tired of the way threads with you and Dan in them end up; and it appears to me that it is your posts that are the ones that start the mud slinging in this area.

As you are fond of saying "FWIW"

Greg

I apologize to the rest of the readers for the thread drift, but I was just following up on someone else's drift
 
Old 04-23-2010, 04:30 PM   #399
Mike Sigman
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Greg, look at the quotes from me you provided and then look at all the personal observations you started making. I realize that you're a fan and student of Dan's, but please don't try to bring me into the fray.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-23-2010, 04:37 PM   #400
gregstec
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Greg, look at the quotes from me you provided and then look at all the personal observations you started making. I realize that you're a fan and student of Dan's, but please don't try to bring me into the fray.

Mike Sigman
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