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Old 04-14-2010, 07:22 PM   #26
Mike Sigman
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Re: Physical Tension - Another Thought

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
At the risk of agitating Mike some more, let's continue thinking out loud..
Oh, no.... I encourage thinking out loud. Please carry on. However, I have to say that some of this thinking out loud reminds me of people who are analysing the composition of rubber in an effort to determine how conveyor-belts work. I have nothing against it; I just wonder why it's considered a fruitful endeavor.

Best.

Mike
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Old 04-14-2010, 07:28 PM   #27
dps
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Re: Physical Tension - Another Thought

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Like this one, which will no doubt trigger enlightenment for many people looking for I.S. clues, here's a three-syllable condensed direction:

Bite Me, Y'all.

Mike
That is four syllables.

David
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Old 04-14-2010, 07:39 PM   #28
Mike Sigman
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Re: Physical Tension - Another Thought

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
That is four syllables.
Omigod.... I did it again. Another person reaches enlightenment.

Best.

Mike Sigman

A thunderclap under the clear blue sky
All beings on earth open their eyes;
Everything under heaven bows together;
Mount Sumeru leaps up and dances.
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Old 04-15-2010, 09:43 AM   #29
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Physical Tension - Another Thought

This was a good thread, until some people decided to come in and ruin it.

Hey Mark, besides this, what other stuff is Vlad working on?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 04-15-2010, 12:15 PM   #30
JW
 
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Re: Physical Tension - Another Thought

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
people who are analysing the composition of rubber in an effort to determine how conveyor-belts work.
Well, rubber would be really amazing to someone like Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer. So that is fun to figure out in addition to conveyor belts... but yes ultimately we should get over it and just know what rubber feels like and what it can do. But it is so fascinating....

ps yes I am likening myself and the majority of the world of modern aikido practitioners to Mr. Kee-rok.

Sorry Lorel, carry on with the thread..
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Old 04-15-2010, 02:11 PM   #31
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: Physical Tension - Another Thought

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Hey Mark, besides this, what other stuff is Vlad working on?
Unfortunately I haven't had the opportunity to train with Vlad since November. I recently ditched corporate America and went out on my own. Hence a shortage of funds but and abundance of work.

However in November I did get to attend the breathing intensive in Toronto. In a nutshell increased focus on breathing and the affects of breathing have been a major focus for awhile. A study of how breathing affects the physical body, the mind and the spirit. How the breath can be used to alter any of these for improved performance, awareness and enjoyment.

Take care,

Mark J.
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Old 04-16-2010, 05:36 PM   #32
Rob Watson
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Re: Physical Tension - Another Thought

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Oh, no.... I encourage thinking out loud. Please carry on. However, I have to say that some of this thinking out loud reminds me of people who are analysing the composition of rubber in an effort to determine how conveyor-belts work. I have nothing against it; I just wonder why it's considered a fruitful endeavor.

Best.

Mike
Of course using natural rubber versus vulcanized rubber can make quite a difference in the performance/longevity of the conveyor belt ... this does not really help explain how a conveyor belt works. Helps quite a bit if trying to build a better one.

There are two essentially unrelated things to consider 1) how to do a thing 2) why does it work - it is best not to confuse the two (I am guilty on many occasions of not following my own advice). Using the breath as a gateway to distributing the force/tension is great (I'm sure there are other ways as well). Don't really need to know about fascia or action potentials to make progress. Unless such knowledge brings significant expository power to bear best leave it alone as the risk of confusion is greatly enhanced.

There a great many who can do and there are quite a few who can teach how to do and very few that can explain why. This proves 'why' is not really so critical in learning the 'how'. I am naturally inclined to jump to the 'why' and am thus easily confused.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 04-19-2010, 01:07 AM   #33
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Physical Tension - Another Thought

Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote: View Post
Unfortunately I haven't had the opportunity to train with Vlad since November. I recently ditched corporate America and went out on my own. Hence a shortage of funds but and abundance of work.

However in November I did get to attend the breathing intensive in Toronto. In a nutshell increased focus on breathing and the affects of breathing have been a major focus for awhile. A study of how breathing affects the physical body, the mind and the spirit. How the breath can be used to alter any of these for improved performance, awareness and enjoyment.

Take care,

Mark J.
Cool, I might go back to Toronto soon and start training with Vlad and crew again.

The distribution of tension stuff and the no-muscle stuff was the stuff Vlad was working on. I just left Toronto at that point too .

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 04-19-2010, 07:48 PM   #34
ashe
 
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Re: Physical Tension - Another Thought

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Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
how so, ashe?
sorry to come back to this so late...

anyway, i think the story about the bhikuni who tried to learn to see with her ears even though her eyes worked perfectly fine is a good analogy.

people in the IS crowd have vilified the soft tissue a bit i think. but the soft tissue is part of the body and is part of how the body works (i.e. that's the nature of the human structure).

so what if there's some tension in the soft tissue during effort? what matters is the balance between tension and relaxation. too much tension and you become stiff and unable to change. too loose and you have no power. that's tai chi. the balance between yin and yang, not only yang.

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Old 04-19-2010, 07:53 PM   #35
Mike Sigman
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Re: Physical Tension - Another Thought

Quote:
Ashe Higgs wrote: View Post
people in the IS crowd have vilified the soft tissue a bit i think. but the soft tissue is part of the body and is part of how the body works (i.e. that's the nature of the human structure).

so what if there's some tension in the soft tissue during effort? what matters is the balance between tension and relaxation. too much tension and you become stiff and unable to change. too loose and you have no power. that's tai chi. the balance between yin and yang, not only yang.
So what's the general idea of how it works, Ashe?

Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-19-2010, 09:56 PM   #36
dps
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Re: Physical Tension - Another Thought

From, "The Intelligent Body" The Sutherland Cranial College

http://www.intelligentbody.org.uk/edavies.php

Dr Stephen Levin took this thinking one step further, maintaining that the body "is" a tensegrity structure, with tension provided by a matrix of connective tissues - ligaments, muscles, blood vessels, nerves and fascia (in sheets, making compartments), giving strength, integrity and pre-stress. Compression is provided by the bones and incompressible fluids in compartments. The bones act like spacers, providing the divergent forces needed to hold the spaces open. He sees the body as "A soft tissue entity, with local bony spacers, rather than a hard tissue entity with soft tissue motor units".

Muscles induce motion and help maintain the pre-stress which we call "tone". When muscles shorten, they also expand width-wise, which puts more tension on the fascial/tensional element, increasing stability. We can deliberately increase tone by contracting muscles, increasing pre-stress before lifting heavy objects. Water in its structured form contributes to tone. Enclosed in fascial compartments, it provides shock-absorption and resists deformation. The fact that joint facets cannot be forced into contact in live subjects is compatible with what we know about the properties of synovial fluid, alternating in state between sol and gel. Viscosity determines the rate at which fluid responds to motion demands and how it performs its role in the tensegrity matrix. Levin also maintains that ligaments act like rubber bands, their elastic rebound contributing to the "spring" in our joints, thus also acting as"movers", e.g. in the foot and knee when walking.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12855
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Roughly speaking, the strength from the ground goes through the bones (ki of Earth) and the "connective", "down-pulling" strength (ki of Heaven) goes through the fascia/ki arrangement (which is more complex than that simple statement implies).
David

Last edited by dps : 04-19-2010 at 10:01 PM.
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Old 04-20-2010, 12:41 AM   #37
jss
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Re: Physical Tension - Another Thought

Quote:
Ashe Higgs wrote: View Post
so what if there's some tension in the soft tissue during effort? what matters is the balance between tension and relaxation. too much tension and you become stiff and unable to change. too loose and you have no power. that's tai chi. the balance between yin and yang, not only yang.
If it were that simple, I don't think the whole yin-yang thing would be such a big deal. It would also be wildly uninformative, because it comes down to 'Never too much, never too little.' It's like saying 'Always practice correctly.'
Secondly, doesn't the balance between yin and yang imply the change from yin to yang and vice-versa? Your interpretation doesn't seem to allow for that.
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Old 04-20-2010, 05:58 AM   #38
Walter Martindale
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Re: Physical Tension - Another Thought

Oh dear...
Muscle contracts via an interaction between myosin and actin, in response to energy released by the ATP molecule splitting into ATP + P at the molecular level. This splitting is caused somehow by the release of calcium ions in the sarcoplasmic reticulum in response to an action potential, which itself is in response to a stimulus from a nerve - the stimulus having been based on a decision made either in the spinal cord (reflex) or the cerebral cortex to generate a movement...

(voluntary - or "striated") Muscles then shorten (contract) - they pull their ends closer together. In most cases both ends are attached to bones via tendons, in a configuration that is (if I remember correctly) most often a "class 3" lever system (fulcrum, force, load, (like the brachialis muscle pulling on the coronoid process of the ulna at the elbow) rather than force, fulcrum, load (like a crowbar) - which is a class 1 lever, or force, load, fulcrum - which is class 2 (like rowing)) When the muscle pulls on its tendons, it draws the points of attachment closer together, inducing movement of the bones. e.g., A relatively short movement of the insertion of the brachialis muscle causes a pretty large movement of the hand through elbow flexion. (the triceps muscle acting in opposition to brachialis could be called a class 1 lever - the triceps pulls on the olecranon process of the ulna, the fulcrum is the elbow joint, and the load is the hand)

In most cases, the brain induces motion via the muscles - when the brain isn't involved, it's some form of reflex.

Well trained aikido isn't a reflex, it is a conditioned response - stuff comes out without you having to think about it - kinda like Pavlov's dogs responding to a bell.
If things are going slowly enough, it's at a conscious level, but in most cases, if you have to think about what you're going, you're going to be going more slowly than if you "just do it" because you're making conscious decisions to act (more processing time involved) instead of allowing your body/brain to process what's going on at a subconscious "conditioned response" level much faster than you can think about it. "oh, wait - he's attacking with um - oh yeah - shomenuchi. I'd better get my arm up to receive...drat - too late, he hit me."

It has been a long time since I studied physiology so if the details are a little dodgy I apologise.
:-)
Walter

Last edited by Walter Martindale : 04-20-2010 at 06:02 AM. Reason: details, details - pedantic details.
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Old 04-20-2010, 07:13 AM   #39
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Re: Physical Tension - Another Thought

So, if any of you peeps in Toronto get bored and want to come across the border to the US (Buffalo/Niagara area), I'd be a willing volunteer to practice some of this stuff in person.
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Old 04-20-2010, 12:44 PM   #40
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Physical Tension - Another Thought

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
So, if any of you peeps in Toronto get bored and want to come across the border to the US (Buffalo/Niagara area), I'd be a willing volunteer to practice some of this stuff in person.
Lol, I think I'm the only one from Toronto (although I live in Japan now) and I haven't practised any of this tension stuff yet. Why don't YOU cross the border and see Vlad himself and get you to teach this stuff?

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Old 04-20-2010, 12:57 PM   #41
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Re: Physical Tension - Another Thought

Because even after many years of training martial arts, if I go anywhere that hasn't already been sactioned before my next child is born in July . . my wife will kill me

However, come fall - I just may do that
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Old 04-20-2010, 01:23 PM   #42
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Re: Physical Tension - Another Thought

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
n most cases, the brain induces motion via the muscles - when the brain isn't involved, it's some form of reflex.

Well trained aikido isn't a reflex, it is a conditioned response - stuff comes out without you having to think about it - kinda like Pavlov's dogs responding to a bell.
A conditioned response is when Gunny yells "Do you git me!?! You yell "Sir, yes, sir!"

It is more correct to say that it is a conditioned reflex -- which is the same as Pavlov's dogs. Salivation is a reflex that can be cued by systematic association. Aiki involves a set of simple spinal reflexes that are provoked/evoked/coordinated by correct conditioning. IMO

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 04-20-2010, 08:13 PM   #43
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Re: Physical Tension - Another Thought

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Secondly, doesn't the balance between yin and yang imply the change from yin to yang and vice-versa? Your interpretation doesn't seem to allow for that.
the right balance is yang with some yin, yin with some yang within the change. not only just yin or yang.

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