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Old 04-10-2010, 02:46 AM   #26
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Quote:
Jeffery Whitney wrote: View Post
Are there any offinsive move in Aikido my friend works in the county jail and a deputy and he wants to learn aikido but some times in his line of work he needs to be offinsive not just deffinsive so would it benifit him or no?
The answer to your question is yes. It's called Atemi.

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Old 04-10-2010, 03:26 AM   #27
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

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Nafis Zahir wrote: View Post
The answer to your question is yes. It's called Atemi.
Yes, but in training mode, you never give atemi so the uke gets a nosebleed. You hold your fist just before his head but don't give hem the real hit.

You don't actually train on punching hard on others... It stays in training mode, not going to combat.

If you want to train on real hitting and kicking, you should go for Karate or Tae Kwon Do or some other martial arts.
With Aikido, it's more learning and training the techniques, not the attacks. The attacks are just "acted" so you can learn the defence.

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Old 04-10-2010, 06:39 AM   #28
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Dead Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

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Dirk Desmet wrote: View Post
The attacks are just "acted" so you can learn the defence.
Really?
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Old 04-10-2010, 07:17 AM   #29
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

you need control measures for sure to ensure safety. However, I would not say that the attacks are "acted" per se, or that they should be. Attacks should be real in the sense that they train and trigger the emotions and reactions that you need to trigger in order to identify/condition your partner to improve.

I think not many folks really understand this and simply go through the motions of training the exact same level that trained at the first day they went to the dojo.

Of course, training should be deliberate and controlled. It should also be appropriate for the skill level of the person training. It makes no sense to simply overwhelm a inexperienced student with stimulus/stress to the point they are actually reinforcing the very instincts/responses we wish to "train out" of them while "training in" new ones.

The correct use of atemi..I have seen very few people that really know how to do this correctly in a progressive manner that allows one to translate to real life/spontaneous and appropriate responses.

It is not simple. It is not one size fits all. and it requires constant and careful attention.

Simply put "Acted" atemi = "acted" responses.

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Old 04-10-2010, 08:32 AM   #30
Jon Marshall
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Hi all,

An excellent opening question. My current teacher regards the "uke attacks" protocol as a training convention, and I'm inclined to agree. It has a certain philosophical charm that's characteristic of aikido, but it takes little imagination can construct scenarios where initiating an aikido attack may be important - e.g. removing someone from a building, breaking up a fight, etc.

Jason Delucia - fairly well known in early MMA circles, albeit mostly for losing (against top-class opponents) - has made a DVD series called Combat Aikido. In it, he talks about "ikkyo boxing", whereby one uses ikkyo like a boxer uses his jab. He builds a repertoire of techniques based on the ikkyo not working! That is, if ikkyo works, fine. If not, then you can atemi with the rear hand, or go into something else. I've tried it a bit and it seems to work well enough, especially when someone first raises a guard. You can see his ikkyo attacks in this clip from the series:



Could make you a bit predictable, I suppose.

Attacking with grips is interesting. For example, a little ai-hanmi katatedori pull to create an opportunity for iriminage or uchi sankyo. Or morotedori and tenkan into a yonkyo (Stephan Stenudd recommends this in his book Attacks in Aikido).

The main question seems to me to be one of achieving kuzushi, after which it's aikido-a-go-go. Taking the offence is also a good way of not getting into a rut with training, and has the marvellous side-effect of developing better (not acted) attacks.

Jon.
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Old 04-10-2010, 08:34 AM   #31
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Looks like I messed up the link. Here it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVbS0xHCerw

Jon.
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Old 04-10-2010, 09:50 AM   #32
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Quote:
Jon Marshall wrote: View Post
Looks like I messed up the link. Here it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVbS0xHCerw

Jon.
Hi, Jon,
The most offensive thing about this sample vid you posted is the performance of the players in the vid.The standard shown be it Judo or Aikido? is very low.I sometimes wonder why people feel a need to post this type of material on Youtube.I guess it must make somebody happy-----
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Old 04-10-2010, 12:24 PM   #33
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Quote:
Hi, Jon,
The most offensive thing about this sample vid you posted is the performance of the players in the vid.The standard shown be it Judo or Aikido? is very low.I sometimes wonder why people feel a need to post this type of material on Youtube.I guess it must make somebody happy-----
Hello Joe,

I was posting more as an example of using aikido offensively, than of good aikido. However, aikido is a stylised art with stylised attacks, and I suspect that most of us really know what it looks like in a rough and tumble - probably more like judo if you don't significantly outclass or surprise your opponent.

I do hold with the idea that the competitive arena is significantly different to real life violence, but at least Jason Delucia has mixed it up with some class fighters and sought to apply aikido techniques - I know that I haven't dared try it out with the MMA crowd. I personally found experimenting with using ikkyo offensively (and working off the failed ikkyo) moderately enlightening, so I am grateful to Delucia for giving me the idea.

The main gist of my post is that it's fun, interesting and beneficial to break with convention and find ways to practice aikido techniques offensively from time to time. Also, that there are real life situations (as suggested in the opening post) that require a more pro-active approach than is suggested by the "uke attacks" convention.

Jon.
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Old 04-10-2010, 01:11 PM   #34
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

I think the words "offensive" and "defensive" are the wrong paradigm. It puts a picture in our minds that we are either attacking or defending and those two things are independent of each other. way, way too basic if you ask me.

Example. I am a soldier and interact with people in dangerous places. People that you may or may not know of there true intentions when you first encounter them. You cannot be offensive or defensive. How do you do that? I don't know.

I do "move forward" though. Engage both figuratively and directly depending on the situation and simply do what ever I do.

It could be that I am shaking their hand or I am going to jack them into the wall and drop them. Basic movement is still the same, it is neither offensive or defensive in nature...no distinction between the two other than the end state or intent.

Not sure if that makes sense. THe point is, both cases require moving forward and engaging in someway. In all cases I am trying to listen to the situation and take the lead...hopefully as skillfully as possible.

As far as Aikido being stylized, I don't think so, at least mine is not. As it is principle based, the principles of engagement are no different for me in combat, how I train in MMA, or in an Aikido dojo.

I also don't think that the competitive arena is significantly different than real life. Sure, there are differences, however those differences are easily identifiable and you can train around those things. There are many good things that come out of the competitive arena that we can learn from, that is, as long as we keep things in perspective.

Ikkyo is a very useful and universal concept in martial arts. In the ring it is mostly seen in the standup clinch as someone underhooks and steps to the side to turn the opponent up against the cage. It is based on the exact same principles we train at albeit a different distance and under a different set of conditions/assumptions.

I think were style comes into view is when we inject weapons or the possibility of weapons. It changes alot about a fight strategy and how we manage things. I think this is what we typically label as "style" in aikido and why we might think it is different and looks different than say MMA stuff.

Trained correctly though it is not about style, but about correctly and safely managing the weapons and the distance that is needed to do so.

I think this perspective also gets lost in daily training in the dojo.

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Old 04-12-2010, 02:17 PM   #35
Jon Marshall
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Hi Kevin,

A few interesting points to think about there. I'll just respond to the first one.

Quote:
I think the words "offensive" and "defensive" are the wrong paradigm. It puts a picture in our minds that we are either attacking or defending and those two things are independent of each other. way, way too basic if you ask me.
Philosophically, I agree - dualistic thinking and all that. But in training, doesn't someone have to initiate an aggressive movement? Even if...
Quote:
Kawahara shihan (Canada) frequently says "Nage initiates".
...uke still has to choose whether to back off, engage nicely or seize a perceived opportunity to attack. Unless he chooses the last one, where's the practice. For example, if one were to simulate your soldier scenario on the mat, the second soldier (uke?) would still have to decide whether he was going to shake your hand or give you cause to jack him into the wall.

Hmmm... OK, maybe nage doesn't have to decide whether to be aggressive or not, but that's fairly high level practice. What if we play semantics and use the word "pro-active" instead of aggressive. Is it not a useful training practice to try applying aikido techniques in a more pro-active way? This, in my experience, is not something that many aikidoka do on a regular basis.

Jon.
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Old 04-12-2010, 03:24 PM   #36
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I think the words "offensive" and "defensive" are the wrong paradigm. It puts a picture in our minds that we are either attacking or defending and those two things are independent of each other.
...I do "move forward" though. Engage both figuratively and directly depending on the situation and simply do what ever I do.
I like how this frames the question. My sense of Aikido is that I should always be trying to enter to the heart of the matter; in some way I am always moving "forward." Sometimes that looks more offensive than others (where called upon, shomen ate is a great way to move someone into a safer location ).

Last edited by mathewjgano : 04-12-2010 at 03:33 PM.

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Old 04-12-2010, 05:03 PM   #37
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

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Dirk Desmet wrote: View Post
Yes, but in training mode, you never give atemi so the uke gets a nosebleed. You hold your fist just before his head but don't give hem the real hit.

You don't actually train on punching hard on others... It stays in training mode, not going to combat.
I hit... not hard enough to harm, just enough to get a reaction. Uke gets lazy in never having to actually be aware of his own safety if he thinks you won't actually hit him. Then he learns he doesn't actually have to react or adjust to Nage's movements. So I hit. If they block their face, I hit their ribs... fun for everyone!!!

MM
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Old 04-12-2010, 10:07 PM   #38
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Jon Marshall wrote:

Quote:
Philosophically, I agree - dualistic thinking and all that. But in training, doesn't someone have to initiate an aggressive movement? Even if...
Someone has to initiate movement for sure.

I don't think it has to be aggressive. A couple of examples.

I try and move in such a way when in the role in nage that I could either shake hands or hit my opponent. I think balanced movement is the key. You could choose to do either.

Ever do the exercise friend or foe? I think this is a big part of the study of ma ai.

Of course, I agree, in practice, we will attack or agress in order to provide fodder for training.

But I don't believe any good attack or reaction to an attack is purely offensive or defensive in nature.

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Old 04-12-2010, 10:13 PM   #39
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

another thing to add. Remember the question ask is: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

hence the answer, I don't believe that you can divide things in this way. Nothing is purely offensive and/or defensive. Your either in control or you are not. If you are not you do what you do to gain control, if you are then you do what you do to maintain control.

In all cases, ethically I think, we attempt to use minimal force.

The potential should be there to cause great harm...this is what we should be training, to reach a deeper understanding of our potential to do great harm.

Through training, we learn how to identify that and hopefully use it in as skillful way as possible.

The short answer to this question might be "yes". Another might answer it "no".

I believe both are right depending on your perspective.

However, I think the answer is really not as simple as that.

IMO, Offensive means that you have the potential to control the situation and you are continuing on past that point of control in order to further destroy or do damage.

Ethically, I'd say that once we have control, we have an obligation to restrain further damage.

This is in line with the Geneva Convention as well....and I think, is a good example. As a Soldier, I can move forward and engage the "enemy" with lethal force, however, once I have rendered him incapable of fighting (Control), then I can no longer use force to do so.

So to me, this is the Catch 22. Are you truely being Offensive if you don't have control? Can you really divide things up between Offensive and Defensive?

Last edited by Kevin Leavitt : 04-12-2010 at 10:18 PM. Reason: Added more.

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Old 04-13-2010, 01:32 PM   #40
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

IMHO, offense and defense is an attitude and application more than a specific move, its how you move and when.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 04-13-2010, 02:37 PM   #41
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Wink Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Yes there is. Object-nage. You pick up a rock or whatever object you can find, throw it really hard at the person and when they start attacking you, immediately switch to defensive mode.

Tips: if you have really good aim, throw it with all you have at the person's head , you might be able to skip the second step.
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Old 04-15-2010, 05:11 AM   #42
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

A couple of really good posts, Kevin. Great perspective.

Quote:
Jon Marshall wrote:
I do hold with the idea that the competitive arena is significantly different to real life violence, but at least Jason Delucia has mixed it up with some class fighters and sought to apply aikido techniques - I know that I haven't dared try it out with the MMA crowd. I personally found experimenting with using ikkyo offensively (and working off the failed ikkyo) moderately enlightening, so I am grateful to Delucia for giving me the idea.
Jason Delucia's ideas are way off base. The UFC-style, one-on-one, empty-handed context doesn't create the necessity for aikido's core techniques. There are many other options that make much more sense. Add weapons, multiple attackers, and surprise and you get a much different picture. The techniques will appear more frequently, and the patterns of movement will get clearer. Also, techniques like jabs, kicks, shooting for takedowns, etc. will begin to seem foolish. The techniques of modern aikido came from a time when the men who used them were constantly armed with a sword and a knife. This is the context in which they function.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 04-15-2010, 07:02 AM   #43
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Thanks Michael. Yeah weapons change thing dramatically and give Aikido the context it was meant to be used in.

I wish that more folks would realize that and stop trying to translate everything we do into some sort of superior/zen/aiki fighting style that can be applied stylistically to a empty handed context.

It just ends up looking stupid and gets all our grappling brethren laughing at us.

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Old 04-15-2010, 12:43 PM   #44
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Aikido was intended to be a defense against armed attacks originally. Especially if you look at the type of attacks we have. (seriously who would shomanuchi to some one's skull without a blade?)

I am in the full opinion that Aikido is offensive. It is a means of self defense, but is completely offensive in tactic. It isn't simply a nage acting in full reaction to the attacker, but the nage is in a position of control over his situation.
Aikido is not a reaction to an attack, it is an utter intolerance towards an attack. Aikido is not simply jujitsu. It does not accept the attack and react to it. It is intolerant to the concept of violence and refuses to exist on a just ground with it.
Aikido does not defend against attacks, it eliminates attacks, often before they are initiated.

We are taught constantly to not wait for the uke to attack. Anticipate the uke's motive and move, don't wait for uke to attack. Aikido wasn't made to react to an attack, it was made to bring people back into ballance.

I find that concept highly offensive in nature.

Last edited by RED : 04-15-2010 at 12:47 PM.

MM
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Old 04-15-2010, 04:14 PM   #45
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
Anticipate the uke's motive and move, don't wait for uke to attack. Aikido wasn't made to react to an attack, it was made to bring people back into ballance.

I find that concept highly offensive in nature.
This fits with my meager sense of things too. I think in somewhat different terms, but I think the meaning is basically the same: engage/act the instant an attack is recognized, ideally before it's had much chance to coalesce (be proactive/learn to anticipate). Aikido as I understand it is very assertive even when it's soft and lovey-dovey and appears to be yielding.

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Old 04-19-2010, 01:44 PM   #46
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

I know one technique that almost universally offends uke. Some people know it as "monkey steals the peaches." ;O

Robert Cronin
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Old 04-21-2010, 10:13 AM   #47
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Every response you execute when grabbed can be done when grabbing. Every atemi you execute when attacked can be used when attacking. We need to lose this whole uke / nage dichotomy. We also need to stop attaching pseudo moralistic value judgments to things like who initiates.

Peace is something you carry inside you. It's not something that has to do with who moves first. It is an attitude.

The misunderstanding of what the attacks really are that we routinely do in our daily training causes us to attach all sorts of baggage to the whole uke / nage relationship which shouldn't be there. This is caused by allowing two different mindsets and two different physical skill sets on the part of uke and nage. Nage is supposed to be relaxed and "defensive" in attitude, executing techniques of great technical sophistication while Uke attacks like an idiot, typically either is too tense or fails to really connect effectively. What would an attack look like if the uke knew what the nage knew?

If Aikido training was about BOTH partners having the same access to "aiki" skill sets we wouldn't have the need for discussions like this because people would understand what they are really doing, or choosing not to do, depending on the level of practice. A katatetori would break nage's balance instantly on contact and set up the atemi with the off hand. No one would be under the misconception that an attack has anything to do with not allowing the nage to move but rather to compromise his structure and make it impossible for nage to defend against the atemi.

We need to get way past trying to impute some sort of moral, right and wrong value judgment to the term "aiki". "Aiki" can be used for good or evil. That's why O-Sensei felt it was important not to teach technique to people not of good character.

I spent a number of years teaching law enforcement and security personnel. LE officers are required to initiate technique on subjects who are e-gressive, not just a-ggressive. I can assure you that "aiki" works just as well when the person initiates as when he is being attacked. Virtually every technique in the Aikido repertoire can be used as an attack, not just a defense. The circumstance and ones personal mindset determine whether this is "violent" in an immoral way or not.

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Old 04-21-2010, 10:35 AM   #48
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
... Every atemi you execute when attacked can be used when attacking. We need to lose this whole uke / nage dichotomy. We also need to stop attaching pseudo moralistic value judgments to things like who initiates.
... We need to get way past trying to impute some sort of moral, right and wrong value judgment to the term "aiki".
To paraphrase Dr. Freud: Sometimes a punch in the face -- is just a punch in the face ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 04-21-2010, 10:47 AM   #49
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Every response you execute when grabbed can be done when grabbing. Every atemi you execute when attacked can be used when attacking. We need to lose this whole uke / nage dichotomy. We also need to stop attaching pseudo moralistic value judgments to things like who initiates.

Peace is something you carry inside you. It's not something that has to do with who moves first. It is an attitude.

The misunderstanding of what the attacks really are that we routinely do in our daily training causes us to attach all sorts of baggage to the whole uke / nage relationship which shouldn't be there. This is caused by allowing two different mindsets and two different physical skill sets on the part of uke and nage. Nage is supposed to be relaxed and "defensive" in attitude, executing techniques of great technical sophistication while Uke attacks like an idiot, typically either is too tense or fails to really connect effectively. What would an attack look like if the uke knew what the nage knew?

If Aikido training was about BOTH partners having the same access to "aiki" skill sets we wouldn't have the need for discussions like this because people would understand what they are really doing, or choosing not to do, depending on the level of practice. A katatetori would break nage's balance instantly on contact and set up the atemi with the off hand. No one would be under the misconception that an attack has anything to do with not allowing the nage to move but rather to compromise his structure and make it impossible for nage to defend against the atemi.

We need to get way past trying to impute some sort of moral, right and wrong value judgment to the term "aiki". "Aiki" can be used for good or evil. That's why O-Sensei felt it was important not to teach technique to people not of good character.

I spent a number of years teaching law enforcement and security personnel. LE officers are required to initiate technique on subjects who are e-gressive, not just a-ggressive. I can assure you that "aiki" works just as well when the person initiates as when he is being attacked. Virtually every technique in the Aikido repertoire can be used as an attack, not just a defense. The circumstance and ones personal mindset determine whether this is "violent" in an immoral way or not.
I tried to clip some of this wonderful post, but it needs to be read again, and again.

In my opinion, this is one of the best posts I've read anywhere in ages. Bedrock truth, no kool-aid drinking necessary... just solid practice of kihon dousa with a teacher who knows and can do along with a good group of folk searching for similar practice.

I'm gonna stop entering strokes on this keyboard and make some coffee and then read this again...

Best regards,

Chuck Clark
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Old 04-21-2010, 01:19 PM   #50
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Yes, I am with Chuck, great post!

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