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Old 04-10-2010, 09:21 PM   #151
dps
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I disagree with this viewpoint. When people start thinking that "all views are legitimate" then there is something very wrong............
......... My recommendation would be to opine, but to opine with specifics rather than to speak with the assumption of authority.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
personally, i can't define aiki or even demonstrate it........
....... now if you want to discuss the basic training of such thing (the undefined stuffs), then i might be able to contribute to the discussion or maybe not.

*just a padawan (you have to figure out of jedi or sith)*
This thread has a topic and allowing for a little thread drift is ok but these post are just muddying the waters.

If you want to talk about basic training training then start another thread.

If you don't like the specifics being opined then post your video and opine your specifics.

David
 
Old 04-11-2010, 06:11 AM   #152
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Since this thread is about aiki definitions, let me just throw this out for some thought.

Aiki - let's just break this up into a very high level view.
Ai: harmonious, join, blend, synchronize, be one, etc.
Ki: energy, force, etc.

So, at a very basic level, we have energy being NOT conflicted with, but more agreed with and more being aware of, etc.

In this very high level viewpoint, everyone posting in this thread has a legitimate view point on aiki - Chis with his view of timing with the energy in an external environment (chair thing) and the others with their view of dealing with the blending in an internal manner. Neither perspective is wrong, but neither perspective is authoritative as well since neither perspective developed the term aiki, nor owns it.

So, in the words of an innocent victim: "Why can't we all just get along" (that sounds like aiki to me as well )

Greg
My opinon here as a former aikidoka, is that whomever can replicate the same feats as the founder probably has the better definition. Given that so few can actually do so, makes me think that their understanding of "aiki" is flawed and there is a flaw in the teaching methodology.
 
Old 04-11-2010, 07:16 AM   #153
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Greg, This!<
Yeah, well, maybe...
 
Old 04-11-2010, 07:47 AM   #154
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I disagree with this viewpoint. When people start thinking that "all views are legitimate" then there is something very wrong.
I agree from your perspective. However, my point was simply that if you broke Aiki into Ai and Ki, and took those terms in a very broad sense, you could loosely support more than one view on aiki - simple semantics here.

Granted, that once you start using aiki in a certain context, than there needs to be a commonly understood and agreed upon definition to facilitate a smooth exchange of information.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The current threa topic is about definitions, in a sense (video), of 'aiki'. I agree with Takahama that the actual subject is kokyu-power (as people are discussing it), but regardless, let's all remember Dale Carnegie's admonition about having "the right to speak". Even Dale was aware that there are a lot of people in this world who will speak knowledgeably about a topic without having the least ability to show it. My recommendation would be to opine, but to opine with specifics rather than to speak with the assumption of authority.
I agree wholeheartedly about your authority point - IMO, the only people that can truly speak authoritatively on this would be Ueshiba or Takeda - but, that is not going to happen, so we will continue to have the multitude of views from many different martial camps all claiming this is aiki - this will never change no matter how many videos or posts are placed in this thread.

IMO, the only way to settle this and get an authoritative position is to try and get aiki trademarked, and then that would only be good in that jurisdiction.

Greg

(as Mike says, FWIW )

Last edited by gregstec : 04-11-2010 at 08:01 AM.
 
Old 04-11-2010, 07:53 AM   #155
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
My opinon here as a former aikidoka, is that whomever can replicate the same feats as the founder probably has the better definition. Given that so few can actually do so, makes me think that their understanding of "aiki" is flawed and there is a flaw in the teaching methodology.
In the absence of Ueshiba and Takeda to speak for themselves, your point about those that can replicate their feats is very valid. But, then the question arises: "Are they doing it exactly the same way"

Nevertheless, IMO, very good points to consider.
 
Old 04-11-2010, 08:33 AM   #156
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
However, my point was simply that if you broke Aiki into Ai and Ki, and took those terms in a very broad sense, you could loosely support more than one view on aiki - simple semantics here.
Ok, but what's the point to your point? If we increase the boundaries of what 'aiki' can mean, more people will hold a correct definition of 'aiki'? Indeed, simple semantics, but I don't see what's the use of that. Except perhaps to be able to say to people: "Sure, you do aiki[do] too," which is kind of belittling. (Not implying that is your purpose, btw. It's the best reason I can think of. )

Quote:
Granted, that once you start using aiki in a certain context, than there needs to be a commonly understood and agreed upon definition to facilitate a smooth exchange of information.
Do you think aikido is a specific enough context?
 
Old 04-11-2010, 09:37 AM   #157
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Ok, but what's the point to your point? If we increase the boundaries of what 'aiki' can mean, more people will hold a correct definition of 'aiki'? Indeed, simple semantics, but I don't see what's the use of that. Except perhaps to be able to say to people: "Sure, you do aiki[do] too," which is kind of belittling. (Not implying that is your purpose, btw. It's the best reason I can think of. )
My point is simply that IMO you should take a look at things from the other person's perspective so you have a better understanding of where they are coming from - I am not saying you have to agree with it, but it is nice to know nonetheless.

Wow, never had "" thrown my way before - better be careful, or I will throw a ki ball your way that will disrupt your harmonious existence in this universe

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Do you think Aikido is a specific enough context?
IMO, no - there is just too many different views of Aikido going on as well - therefore, the reason we have so many different views on aiki.

For the record, personally, I am in the aiki definition camp with Dan, Mark, Mike, and others with similar internal views. But that does not mean I do not try to understand where those that do not agree with us are coming from.

FWIW, my recent posts were simply intended to maybe get folks trying to take a view of things from a perspective different than their own - nothing more and nothing less.

Greg

Last edited by gregstec : 04-11-2010 at 09:41 AM.
 
Old 04-11-2010, 10:02 AM   #158
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
I agree from your perspective. However, my point was simply that if you broke Aiki into Ai and Ki, and took those terms in a very broad sense, you could loosely
support more than one view on aiki - simple semantics here.
Hope you don't take this personally, but I'm going to disagree here. As Peter Goldsbury, Josh Reyer, and a few others have posted here on Aikiweb, breaking down some Japanese words into individual components doesn't always work properly.

Historically, we can see this from a passage in A Life in Aikido. It's on page 285 of my book and talks about "Aikido itself is connected to the love of the heart." Same para. "Aiki sounds just like Ai ki (love energy), and the meanings are connected as well." Not the same. Aiki is not Ai ki. They can be connected but one must have a basis of aiki first.

In fact, Ueshiba makes note of them both as being the heart of Budo.

Quote:
Ueshiba Morihei wrote:
I would like people to understand that the first character in the word Budo is made up of characters whose meaning is that the shield blocks the spear. I want them to realize that the philosophical heart of Japanese Budo is both Aiki (unifying the energies of ki) and Ai ki (the ki energy of love and compassion).
It's why I post that aiki is the martial underpinnings of aikido. And aikido is the way of aiki. It isn't the way of ai ki. It's why Ueshiba said people didn't have to follow his spirituality in aikido. A spirituality grounded in the principles of ai ki would suffice, provided one had aiki to connect the two.

I'd like to once again give my thanks to Peter Goldsbury for suggesting this book to me. Thank you! It has a wealth of information in it.

To reiterate the martial and the spiritual and how Ueshiba thought of himself. A Life in Aikido page 293.

Quote:
Ueshiba Morihei wrote:
I could have taken the path of philosophy or religion and reached a respectable level of proficiency, if I had delved into their mysteries. But I felt my calling in life was to follow the path of the martial arts. I am not a man of religion - I am a martial artist.
There is a definitive quality to aiki. Everyone who gets their hands on someone who can use aiki to a decent level understands that definitive quality. They can't reproduce it, but they understand that aiki is not about timing and body placement. There is no support for multiple views on aiki.

Although with ai ki being connected to aiki, there can be many, many different views on aikido ... but the most basic quality of aiki must be there. Jujutsu + ai ki does not equal aikido.

And if you think most aikido has aiki, I leave you with this from the same book. While the para is mostly regarding demonstrations, it shows the concept held by Ueshiba Morhei of keeping "the secret of aiki".

Quote:
Ueshiba Kisshomaru wrote:
True Budo involved struggle, and invoked the stakes of life and death, so he (Ueshiba Morihei) felt that its inner secrets should be transmitted only to sincere seekers. He believed that to show the secrets freely to outsiders would be immoral, a kind of devaluation or disrespect for the art.
 
Old 04-11-2010, 10:20 AM   #159
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Hope you don't take this personally, but I'm going to disagree here. As Peter Goldsbury, Josh Reyer, and a few others have posted here on Aikiweb, breaking down some Japanese words into individual components doesn't always work properly.
Actually, I do take it personal, since personally, I am with you on the points in your post

I agree that the splitting of Aiki into Ai and Ki is not the way aiki in the aikido context should be looked at - however, it appears that others have taken that approach in their view of aikido. Therefore, my posts making some points that maybe that's where one could look to gain a better understanding from that perspective - as I mentioned in my last post, nothing more and nothing less.

Greg
 
Old 04-11-2010, 12:36 PM   #160
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Wow, never had "" thrown my way before - better be careful, or I will throw a ki ball your way that will disrupt your harmonious existence in this universe
Could you notify me in advance when you do that? I'd love to be able to post that on youtube.
 
Old 04-11-2010, 01:24 PM   #161
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Quote:
Ueshiba Kisshomaru wrote:
True Budo involved struggle, and invoked the stakes of life and death, so he (Ueshiba Morihei) felt that its inner secrets should be transmitted only to sincere seekers. He believed that to show the secrets freely to outsiders would be immoral, a kind of devaluation or disrespect for the art.
I see.
Since that is the model O Sensei put forth; do you think it 'disrespectful' that we try to approach the subject matter directly?
 
Old 04-11-2010, 01:39 PM   #162
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Hi Dan,
That was very interesting.
I have nothing smart to say...just some thoughts to offer.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Connecting the Mind/ body through intent, is a process that takes time. Learning ways to use that connection externally in movement that will negate force-in while allowing for force-out in perfect balance is a process as well; a process that is NOT all the same.
Some of the training of static pushing and intent exercises are aimed more at the former, are they not? My naive view is like this:
1/ establish body held in supported suspension
2/ maintain that in movement with/without contact.
3/ change continuously
?
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
.. to use that connection externally in movement that will negate force-in while allowing for force-out in perfect balance is a process as well; a process that is NOT all the same. The lack of discussion of that aspect is (for me anyway) defining in these debates-for the simple reason that aspects of that critical balance of in/yo ho are not even brought up.
I would love to know more about this. Are you talking about a kind of way of exploding with force, whilst maintaining the body's support in opposition?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
That anyone is still discussing those jujutsu principles this far along says everything
I guess there will always be a distribution, and there will always be people new to it, just starting, too..

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The use of that connected body creates aiki connections in ways most people have no understanding of, cannot see, and really have no ability to judge. Even those that have a bit of understanding of what to shoot for, have trouble effectively using it ..as they don't know where it can lead to or be utilized
Yes, I think it is bewildering.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Saying you can deliver center in your hand is quite an accomplishment, doing so is another.
Saying you can deliver with any part of your body at any time in free movement is another;
Saying you can do so at the end of a weapon and actually being able to do so outside of kata, at speed, is a whole other world.
Very interesting.
..and mildly depressing.
Josh
 
Old 04-11-2010, 01:43 PM   #163
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
I see.
Since that is the model O Sensei put forth; do you think it 'disrespectful' that we try to approach the subject matter directly?
Well, obviously we're all sincere seekers, so it's not a problem.
 
Old 04-11-2010, 02:38 PM   #164
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Could you notify me in advance when you do that? I'd love to be able to post that on youtube.
Sure thing - that would certainly put an end to some of the discussions going on around here
 
Old 04-11-2010, 05:42 PM   #165
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Well, obviously we're all sincere seekers, so it's not a problem.
yeah. um. im' not sure why you're so sure
 
Old 04-11-2010, 08:31 PM   #166
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Hakaru Mori wrote:
An opponent to whom this technique has been applied suddenly becomes unable to release his grip, finds the power draining out of his attack as he is floated upwards, and becomes subject to control by the will of the person applying the technique.
from<

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 04-11-2010 at 08:35 PM.
 
Old 04-12-2010, 09:06 AM   #167
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I've been around internal quite a bit. I have studied a great deal under a very well known teacher. I have fought with the dog brothers done mixed martial arts, and competitive jiujitsu.
I think you've been around good jujutsu quite a bit. It's more than likely from what I have seen in your own videos and Tim's that you are confusing good jujutsu and good tactics, with IP/ aiki. I would be the last to quibble since I happen to like good "juts" and live weapons. I just don't confuse technical applications and principles with Internal power/ aiki.
It is even easier when considering a limited art like Aikido-limited meaning typically no punches, kicks, and free style weapons.
In more complicated venues, its easy to see how people equate/confuse good technique with Internal power or aiki though. good waza can feel ghosty and see you trapped and thrown. And lets face it good hard punching is "good enough" for most everyone. I've not seen your internal power connection demonstrate anything I would consider internal power, instead its "internal martial arts" technical moves. I'm not saying he doesn't know anything internal but using your own ideas of "video evidence as evidence" he has never shown it. It's well known he has very good jujutsu, I see he has now dumped shen wu and gone all BJJ -but for this topic...so what?

As far as how and where the technical meet internal power-another teacher related to him tried to throw me in that Bagua "cross the arm over the body line" and toss me from the shoulder and waist move... he bounced himself off of me at his own seminar without me even doing much at all. This of course could lead to many defining openings in live play, but "winning" or "losing" is still not the point, Chris. Good jujutsu will do that just fine. That teacher had very good jujutsu principles and moves. I just never confused that with internal power.

Quote:
I've been around the block, and I'd love to share. However I am constantly stone walled by those unwilling to demonstrate any actual ability outside of their comfort zone. Sure there is lots of talk about challenges and sparring sessions, but it's just talk as far as I can tell.

Why is making a video so complicated? If you can do anything that I haven't seen before, I would love to talk about it.
Well I'm not sure why this is a pissing contest. "All talk" means what- it's not true? Is that really what you want to say? Ark, Rob, myself and my guys have sparred with any number of MMA, BJJ, Judo, Karate and Silat/ Kali people in-house and on their turf. I am spending the weekend teaching at a karate and MMA seminar BECAUSE of the results of my sparring with a few of their top men. Why do I have to be interested in doing videos? To prove what, to whom? And about what? IP/ aiki will add to anyones game, but it doesn't teach you how to fight.

Quote:
Again, a bunch of chit chat, but no one says "yeah I'll make a video"
If anyone can do any kind of demonstration that I can't duplicate, then I'll shut up and listen. However I repeatedly hear "I can tell by your movement that you don't have (insert magic word here)" or " you could not possibly do what I do because I can (insert magic jibber-jabber here)". Why not show how you can do these things; well maybe because you can't.
I understand your point Chris, but the fact that you cannot tell the difference or see the difference in movement yourself when watching something with limited technical applications like aikido (where it is even MORE clean and obvious to see the difference in application compared to MMA) when more and more of those who are training this way can see the difference...doesn't really make the point you want to make.
Dan
 
Old 04-12-2010, 09:36 AM   #168
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Edit time ran out:
Chris
All in all, I can see where you are confusing fighting ability- with internal power and aiki. It's just missing the point entirely. They do not necessarly equate.
From my experience (so far) playing with some IP guys..they can't fight at any level or standard I would personally find acceptable yet they had power and aiki.
I have played with good grapplers who had very good understanding of principles, movement and displacement,(never to be taken lightly) and what you call "structure." While some were relaxed in movement far more than others...they still had zip for internal power/ aiki.
I have played with some decent, connected aikido and Daito ryu people...who were good technically..but were thrown or handled with IP/Aiki and could nothing (technically) to stop it from happening.
It think it can get confusing to understand the difference in what people think they are seeing from what is happening.
Dan
 
Old 04-12-2010, 11:12 AM   #169
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Edit time ran out:
Chris
All in all, I can see where you are confusing fighting ability- with internal power and aiki. It's just missing the point entirely. They do not necessarly equate.
From my experience (so far) playing with some IP guys..they can't fight at any level or standard I would personally find acceptable yet they had power and aiki.
I have played with good grapplers who had very good understanding of principles, movement and displacement,(never to be taken lightly) and what you call "structure." While some were relaxed in movement far more than others...they still had zip for internal power/ aiki.
I have played with some decent, connected aikido and Daito ryu people...who were good technically..but were thrown or handled with IP/Aiki and could nothing (technically) to stop it from happening.
It think it can get confusing to understand the difference in what people think they are seeing from what is happening.
Dan
Wow...What a great post...Dan I'll make no bones about it here...I am not interested in making my "fighting technique" better...Let's face it... I will be 50 this year and I practice Aikido for other reasons which is the reason I am interested in your form of IMA

What I want to know is what health and "spiritual" ( I know a very loaded word in Aikido) benefits does your IMA hold for someone like me...An average run of the mill regular dude...Don't get me wrong I can still mix it up and practice hard but I am interested in the benefits of Solo Training for Health outside of the Dojo where the mustard meets the hotdog...

The fact it may partially turn me into some sort of super duper Aiki man is beside the point and meaningless to me.

I will be back in MASS sometime this summer hopefully.

William Hazen
 
Old 04-12-2010, 11:52 AM   #170
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Dan, you can't make a video?

 
Old 04-12-2010, 12:12 PM   #171
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I would like to see other people get those kudos as well, please post videos!
Here's the thing. Say I make a video of a guy shoveling dirt. He could be using convention muscle, convention way of moving, etc. Or the guy could be using internal power. Either way it would look like a video of a guy shoveling dirt. Replace shoveling dirt with a a judo throw, or a shiho-nage or whatever. It doesn't look much different. Heck you can have two people standing straight up and down - one person can be standing the normal way, and the other could be using internal power. It's easier just to go feel someone.
 
Old 04-12-2010, 12:16 PM   #172
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Dan, you can't make a video?
Chris
I have no interest in doing so, many have asked to film me.
You can continue to suggest other reasons why that is (all that I have seen from you are negative) but in light of the number of people I have met and trained with -who read these pages- and the dozens I have sparred with openly, your negative suggestions regarding my motivations are starting to sound a bit silly. Let's be fair to each other; let's leave it that you can't understand or do not agree with my reasoning for not creating video. That would at least be a fair criticism of me on your part, while also sounding more credible. I thought your earlier comment about "feeling stone walled in your efforts" was also fair. That's preferable to the more negative connotations about motives- that I find counterproductive to the discussion, particularly, since I have offered to meet-up with you in person more than once.

You might want to note that there are many budo teachers in established arts, who support a tradition, charge money for ranking and who are very public- who also will not allow video. I am none of the former, but I am certainly not unusual in the later.

Cheers
Dan
 
Old 04-12-2010, 01:22 PM   #173
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
particularly, since I have offered to meet-up with you in person more than once.
When did this happen? I'm not even aware of a time when you and I were less then 1000 miles from each other...

You are unable to make a video demonstrating any ability. I understand.

 
Old 04-12-2010, 01:27 PM   #174
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Dan, you can't make a video?
Chris,

I completely understand your viewpoint and, prior to meeting and getting hands on Dan, I might have agreed with you. But after training with Dan a few times and being able to feel what he's been talking about on these forums for years, I can honestly tell you - video won't help. It won't answer any of your questions. In fact, it may actually create more confusion and consternation. As trite as the saying is, this stuff especially, has to be felt.

Jon Haas
www.warriorfitness.org
 
Old 04-12-2010, 01:29 PM   #175
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Hi all-

Quote:
Robert Roeser wrote: View Post
Either way it would look like a video of a guy shoveling dirt.
I think this is an important point. But-- the reason I am still in favor of people using video to drive discussion is the uke. Videos of solo exercises may very well be a bad idea (might confuse rather than clarify), but in discussing the nature of aiki, I'd like to see videos where an effect is caused in the uke that would be definitive of what aiki is and is not.
If I can achieve it, I will video it for discussion!
 

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