Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Language

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-08-2010, 11:02 AM   #76
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,751
United_States
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Most people have a simple route table for control of their internal energies, and when engaged with an external force, are simply dedicated to dealing with one force at a time that limits thier movements. Now lets say you set up a complicated meshed route table that can handle internal energies in multiple fashions at the same time so you now can handle dealing with ever changing dynamic external forces as well as add some of your own forces to the mix all at the same time. This is what internal aiki training can do for you by establishing new paths for routing energies that you thought were never there because you were locked down in a simple mode.
i like the network analogy. take it a bit further, when you touch another person, you establish a network link between your network cloud with the other person network cloud, so now the information can flow both way through the connection. so depends on how good you are, you can reach into the other person network and manipulate the information (read energy flow).
 
Old 04-08-2010, 11:08 AM   #77
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,751
United_States
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Brian Griffith wrote: View Post
Quick question for those who have been training/developing aiki for sometime...has/does your definition change as you develop...It seems to me as you learn/develop, the more your understanding (of aiki) changes/progresses and since the change is, from my very limited, understanding in "your own" body maybe that is why defining it for the masses is difficult.
have not work on this for long, but the answer is yes. at least for me the definition of aiki changed as my training progress. the path of aiki is constant change.
 
Old 04-08-2010, 11:14 AM   #78
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Brian Griffith wrote: View Post
Quick question for those who have been training/developing aiki for sometime...has/does your definition change as you develop...It seems to me as you learn/develop, the more your understanding (of aiki) changes/progresses and since the change is, from my very limited, understanding in "your own" body maybe that is why defining it for the masses is difficult.
Yes, definitely. I don't doubt that in a couple of years I'll have a different view of aiki. Not contradictory, but more in depth view.

The best general defining statement I can think of regarding aiki is this:

Aiki is an internally structured Self within a central equilibrium of infinite opposing spirals.

Course, if you had told me that 4 years ago, I'd have gone ... What in the world are you talking about?!?

So, breaking it down, we have internally structured. That's what we're defining right now in this thread. Then you have central equilibrium which we've only touched on. Finally we have opposing spirals which we haven't gotten to yet.

In person with someone who has a decent amount of aiki ... mere minutes to know and define. 5-10 years to actually understand it in one's body to a workable level. Online ... I imagine people who haven't started training it will begin to train it long before we've finished defining it online.
 
Old 04-08-2010, 11:18 AM   #79
Ernesto Lemke
Dojo: Seikokan , Leeuwarden
Location: Leeuwarden. the Netherlands
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 150
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Hi Mark,

All's fine over here. Though maybe not training as hard as I could/should I suppose.

I was referring to push test #3.
Hope you are doing well too. Judging from reading your posts on the web I suspect so. Take care.

Ernesto

PS
If this causes too much of a thread drift PM is fine too.
 
Old 04-08-2010, 11:38 AM   #80
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 692
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

please don't PM; i'm interested too!
 
Old 04-08-2010, 11:56 AM   #81
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Ernesto Lemke wrote: View Post
Hi Mark,

All's fine over here. Though maybe not training as hard as I could/should I suppose.

I was referring to push test #3.
Hope you are doing well too. Judging from reading your posts on the web I suspect so. Take care.

Ernesto

PS
If this causes too much of a thread drift PM is fine too.
I don't feel like I'm training as hard as I should either. I feel bad because I think I'm slacking too much and not training enough. And I suck horribly at this stuff. Then again, I get nearly the same answer from quite a few other people when asked about IT.

Quote:
Ernesto Lemke wrote: View Post
Q: As you via intent shift the load from back to front foot, do you feel any change in the force vector as it is applied onto your partner?
Actually, I don't really think about my partner/uke. I'm really focusing on me and what I should be doing internally with intent. So, I guess, the answer is no, I don't feel a change. In fact, if I'm doing things right, I shouldn't feel anything from my partner.

Course, I'm not doing things right because I kept getting stronger and stronger pushes from him. You can see on the video that his push wasn't a steady one. That's why it took me a few seconds to get things right so that I could move my foot forward. At first, all the energy was going into my left (back) foot and it shouldn't have been doing that. I had to fix that. Bad structural integrity and intent. After that, I was able to move my foot forward.

Quote:
Ernesto Lemke wrote: View Post
I did this drill against a wall and noticed that as the front leg gets loaded, the compression of the body's structure increases and force runs up in a more diagonal/vertical line as opposed to the line when it comes out of/into the back foot. Of course, I just did it as of yesterday so I'm curious whether you keep your force going out in a 90 degree angle (aligned with your own arm that is).
Best,

Ernesto Lemke
The idea of the exercise is to train the body for non-dedicated weight under pressure. No matter what pressure is coming in to my body, I should be free to move either foot/leg. When that pressure/energy is loading one leg specifically, then, to me, that means I'm not actually keeping my structural body properly working.

Of course, in the very beginning when I first started, I had to practice getting that push from the right hand over and down to the left foot. But, I had no pathways built in my body at all. I had to first identify and then build/work those pathways. That meant focusing on getting the push/energy/force from my partner's push on my outstretched right hand all the way over to my left foot. So, yeah, I had dedicated weight/force in that foot. But the purpose of that exercise was specifically to identify and build the pathways.

After that's done, it's on to this kind of exercise where it's working the pathways internally and vectoring the force/push/energy within such that there is no dedicated weight on one foot/leg.

If you're working on pushing against the wall, then when you push, you should work to maintain freedom in both feet. While pushing on the wall, you should be able to lift one foot, then the other, back and forth while keeping the same pressure on the wall. Focusing on the spine is an important part. Think of the spine pushing on the wall. Then think of the mid-lower back and the connections there to lift your foot. Don't lift from the quad muscles. (I still have trouble doing this.)

Hope that answers your questions. If not, let me know.
 
Old 04-08-2010, 02:10 PM   #82
Ernesto Lemke
Dojo: Seikokan , Leeuwarden
Location: Leeuwarden. the Netherlands
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 150
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Let me try to address some things in a, hopefully, likewise fashion.

Quote:
Actually, I don't really think about my partner/uke.
I would agree that that is what I want to accomplish myself (masakatsu agatsu) still, at the level I’m at, I can’t surpass his input into/onto my body as of yet. In any case, my question wasn’t so much whether you felt anything from him – in the sense of things he does – but whether you experience that internally shifting your weight affects the (angle of) force coming out of your own body. Your partner may not even feel that adjustment, I was wondering whether you do.

Quote:
The idea of the exercise is to train the body for non-dedicated weight under pressure. No matter what pressure is coming in to my body, I should be free to move either foot/leg. When that pressure/energy is loading one leg specifically, then, to me, that means I'm not actually keeping my structural body properly working.
I’m aspiring to reach similar goals but it’s a loooooong road ahead.

Quote:
After that's done, it's on to this kind of exercise where it's working the pathways internally and vectoring the force/push/energy within such that there is no dedicated weight on one foot/leg.

If you're working on pushing against the wall, then when you push, you should work to maintain freedom in both feet. While pushing on the wall, you should be able to lift one foot, then the other, back and forth while keeping the same pressure on the wall
By having no dedicated weight do you mean you don’t allow force to compress your structure? Or that you have the ability to transfer that compression via intent so there is no isolating of your own structure? Or maybe something else ?
(BTW with pathway you mean something similar as groundpath right? Different question, I know).
In any case, I hear what your saying with having freedom in both feet in the sense that I try and train to change groundpaths (pathways) via intent regardless of the stance I’m in. Still, I find it hard to imagine when standing in say a neutral stance (like the way you are standing in the vid but solo, no partner, no support but the ground) to be able to lift up one foot without changing the rest of the structure. To my mind the central axis must shift to one of the two side axes to prevent the structure from collapsing.
Which reminds me, I was encouraged to train this drill for instance, and I’m sorry, but I don’t own a camera to film it but even then, you would just see me standing still (groaning, making funny faces, but not moving) :

Stand in an upright position, feet parallel, one side attached to the wall. Now raise the foot that’s the furthest from the wall.

There are a number of variations of drills working with a wall but that’s another topic. Regarding the version above: I can't do it (raise the foot) but it does train certain things.
Best,

Ernesto

Last edited by Ernesto Lemke : 04-08-2010 at 02:15 PM.
 
Old 04-08-2010, 02:47 PM   #83
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i like the network analogy. take it a bit further, when you touch another person, you establish a network link between your network cloud with the other person network cloud, so now the information can flow both way through the connection. so depends on how good you are, you can reach into the other person network and manipulate the information (read energy flow).
Yeah, once you put them into your layer 3 MPLS Ethernet VPLS cloud, you can put them anywhere you want, at any time, and at anyplace simultaneously
 
Old 04-08-2010, 07:47 PM   #84
David Yap
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 561
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Then working on vectoring the force internally in various ways. I think Bill Gleason shows it better than I could explain.
Similarly...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cKh7...eature=related
 
Old 04-08-2010, 10:05 PM   #85
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,628
United_States
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

I just finished class. I had my students push on me quite a bit. I could easily do everything described thus far.

I think I can do any demonstration of this stuff that any one else can. If you don't believe me, make a video of you doing something, and I'll copy it. I think all this talking has made you guys think this stuff is harder then it really is.

 
Old 04-09-2010, 12:00 AM   #86
Ernesto Lemke
Dojo: Seikokan , Leeuwarden
Location: Leeuwarden. the Netherlands
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 150
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I think I can do any demonstration of this stuff that any one else can. If you don't believe me, make a video of you doing something, and I'll copy it.
In reference to the drill I suggested above; I mentioned I can't do that. I know you didn't write it but did you also try that one and succeeded? If so, I would sure love to see that.
BTW
I wasn't taught this drill with the idea that one was supposed to succesfully raise the leg the leg, rather, you pay attention to what happened inside. FWIW
Best,

Ernesto
 
Old 04-09-2010, 07:25 AM   #87
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I think I can do any demonstration of this stuff that any one else can. If you don't believe me, make a video of you doing something, and I'll copy it. I think all this talking has made you guys think this stuff is harder then it really is.
Hi Chris:

Well, I'm looking at the topic of defining as opposed to a challenge. I started to post yesterday that I think the real problem with the defining aspect is (after reading some of the posts) simply that a person can only define in terms of what he knows. Some pretty explicit definitions (yet simple) definitions have been offered so far and my opinion is that the reason some of them get rejected is that the people who are rejecting them just don't understand the basic principles yet. I.e., the people who don't know how to do these things can't see the point of some fairly obvious 'definitions', yet once they've been shown I feel that they will simply nod and shrug at the obvious.

Another problem with the videos has to do with what can happen to interpretations of what is seen. I'm not a great exponent of the "jo trick"... and in my opinion Ueshiba never really pulled it off in the filmed attempts I've seen (he *may* have been able to do it better when he was younger and stronger). That being said, I see something entirely different in what he was attempting to do than you do in your explanation that has to do with suggestion, and so on.

Watching what you do and how you do it, my impression is that I can do a number of things with "aiki" that you can't do, but that's because your definition of "aiki" is quite different in understanding from what I understand; from what I know I can do some demonstrations that your "structure" approach simply doesn't allow for. As I mentioned to you previously, "structure" is not so important in the way I do things. I also posted a picture of two of Tohei's students doing a good basic example; I think that picture on one-leg should be a defining static example that people should be able to do well, since the dynamic examples can be a lot more sophisticated.

However, while I'm interested in the topic of approaching a definition, I'd already begun to drop out because I think the discussion is impossible to bring to fruition until everyone understands how to do these things at a basic level. Then the definition would be simple, IMO: it would be more a matter of using terms that truly define in the simplest and most accurate manner.

Best.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-09-2010, 09:28 AM   #88
tlk52
Dojo: Aikido of Park Slope/NY Aikikai
Location: NYC
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 83
United_States
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

"two of Tohei's students doing a good basic example"

FYI: I believe that the person standing on one leg is Rod Kobayashi
 
Old 04-09-2010, 10:26 AM   #89
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Toby Kasavan wrote: View Post
"two of Tohei's students doing a good basic example"

FYI: I believe that the person standing on one leg is Rod Kobayashi
Correct and in my brief experience with him he definitely had Aiki.

William Hazen
 
Old 04-09-2010, 10:48 AM   #90
Rob Watson
Location: CA
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 698
United_States
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
To me, I see available energy paths in the body to consist of muscle, bone, ligaments/tendons, and other parts of the fascia. The bone, muscle, and (to some extent) the ligament/tendon paths are mostly linear - the energy comes in and basically follows a straight path through to the destination. However, with fascia, there are multiple paths the energy can go at the same time and still reach the same destination.
I don't think fascia works quite this way ... what little contractile force the fascia does contribute perform is very slow and quite modest. The enervation and receptors (pressure, acceleration & relative position, etc) however 'alert' and perhaps participate in 'recruitment' of disparate muscles to become coordinated and share the load thereby minimizing the local effects while contributing to the 'connectedness' we are talking about.

The energy is not carried by the fascia so much as its 'character' is determined used as part of a feedback loop such that musculo-skeletal configurations can be adjusted to accomodate the load. Exactly how this control system operates (the algorithm if you will) is what is being conditioned by all the training. This is oversimplified but I think gets at the gist of it (my sense anyway).

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
 
Old 04-09-2010, 11:33 AM   #91
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

I've had a series of emails and phone calls asking why I am not participating. Chris's comments sum it up.
Quote:
I think I can do any demonstration of this stuff that any one else can. If you don't believe me, make a video of you doing something, and I'll copy it. I think all this talking has made you guys think this stuff is harder then it really is.
Chris,
You have never once expressed any understanding of what I have been discussing in our communications here. You can chalk it up to semantics or definitions and call it a day- I don't. I am as equally confident as you that there is no way you could deliver on what I discuss here. It is evident in the way you move and in your videos and in all the descriptions offered. I believe that will prove out in person. Aiki as you describe in your "leading the mind" and blending ideas are more of the same basic jujutsu principles talked about my any number of good jujutsu men-your teacher and his teacher included. So at least on my end, I am most certainly not talking about aiki as anything you have described-it is far more complex and rich than that. I would be far more interested in your opinion after we met and crossed hands

I've heard this debate for fifteen years and other than more and more people getting out and now rewiring their thinking and approach, the debate is not moving forward. I have yet to meet or see the man from the JMA who has displayed what I would consider a really accomplished physical understanding of what is being discussed here-and most certainly not anyone in Daito ryu or Aikido. It is always a more basic absorb / project model, and their movements express openings and balance issues for the simple reason that they don't have enough aiki in-balance within their own bodies, much less in their interaction with others. It all remains "budo light," "kata based" theory which just doesn't develop the body enough. The resultant body condition and connection understanding from their training is easily gotten around or through. Absorb and project just doesn't cover the range of what you will encounter and how your body can generate tremendous relaxed "snapping" power through in/yo ho on toward a fuller range of freedom in movement.
The hold back or lack of fuller development is readily evident in the movements of many of the teachers and supposed masters in the JMA. You can "see" where they are going and where they could make changes that would give them a deeper development in power generation internally and externally but their fixed training models would not lead them toward those potential discoveries.

Once you start physically discussing the theory and use of IP/aiki in a free fighting format and fighting with weapons, the crowd gets decidedly thinner and reverts back to kata and traditional roles and definitions for aiki. I suspect it was always that way.

Connecting the Mind/ body through intent, is a process that takes time. Learning ways to use that connection externally in movement that will negate force-in while allowing for force-out in perfect balance is a process as well; a process that is NOT all the same. The lack of discussion of that aspect is (for me anyway) defining in these debates-for the simple reason that aspects of that critical balance of in/yo ho are not even brought up. It's always about absorbing and casting, or the more rudimentary leading (as in Chris's chair example). That anyone is still discussing those jujutsu principles this far along says everything

The use of that connected body creates aiki connections in ways most people have no understanding of, cannot see, and really have no ability to judge. Even those that have a bit of understanding of what to shoot for, have trouble effectively using it in a truly martial context as they don't know where it can lead to or be utilized under what types of pressure; from mild aikido and push hands to sustained pressure in fighting. It is most assuredly NOT all the same.
Saying you can deliver center in your hand is quite an accomplishment, doing so is another.
Saying you can deliver with any part of your body at any time in free movement is another;
Saying you can do so at the end of a weapon and actually being able to do so outside of kata, at speed, is a whole other world.

Factors that determine aiki in weapons engagement are most certainly internal and body driven but also involve projection and spiral energy that simply cannot be duplicated by external means or mimicing. I think that the majority of people in the Martial Arts are outside of that paradigm. As such, or should I say because of that, personal engagements are the best solution to a debate.

I know I didn't extend any specific definition of aiki...I would just rather do it in person. For some reason I don't get into a debate there.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 04-09-2010 at 11:47 AM.
 
Old 04-09-2010, 12:27 PM   #92
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,536
United_States
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Correct and in my brief experience with him he definitely had Aiki.

William Hazen
Yup, that is the late Kobayashi-sensei. He split from Tohei and started Seidokan in 1981 fwiw. As a matter of fact we were doing a variation of that ki test in our advanced class at HQ last Friday night. With beginners they get light pressure to help teach them that the point isn't pushing back. It is about structure, but also learning to control the incoming energy internally. We go from 2 feet on the ground to one in the air with the partner giving constant and ultimately very strong force. There are lots of tests like this and they're all about training the body, intent, etc. It's not *just* structure. And it's not *just* suggestion. It's learning to use the body "correctly" to absorb and direct things where you want them to go.

I'll print out the photo and show it to his family this weekend and see if anyone remembers when it was taken, etc. Just fwiw.

 
Old 04-09-2010, 12:43 PM   #93
Adman
 
Adman's Avatar
Location: St. Louis
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 139
United_States
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Toby Kasavan wrote: View Post
"two of Tohei's students doing a good basic example"

FYI: I believe that the person standing on one leg is Rod Kobayashi
If you're referring to this image...
http://www.neijia.com/OneLegPushOriginal.jpg

...then, I think the one standing on one leg is Iwao Tamura.
 
Old 04-09-2010, 12:48 PM   #94
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,536
United_States
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote: View Post
If you're referring to this image...
http://www.neijia.com/OneLegPushOriginal.jpg

...then, I think the one standing on one leg is Iwao Tamura.
Yeah, could be too. I keep looking at the photo and now that you mention it I'm not sure anymore. After posting my reply and thinking more about it I sent a copy of the image to the Kobayashi family to ask them to to take a look... It sure looks a *lot* like Kobayashi, but... I don't recall him ever being in those books...

 
Old 04-09-2010, 01:31 PM   #95
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,133
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
I don't think fascia works quite this way ... what little contractile force the fascia does contribute perform is very slow and quite modest. The enervation and receptors (pressure, acceleration & relative position, etc) however 'alert' and perhaps participate in 'recruitment' of disparate muscles to become coordinated and share the load thereby minimizing the local effects while contributing to the 'connectedness' we are talking about.

The energy is not carried by the fascia so much as its 'character' is determined used as part of a feedback loop such that musculo-skeletal configurations can be adjusted to accomodate the load. Exactly how this control system operates (the algorithm if you will) is what is being conditioned by all the training. This is oversimplified but I think gets at the gist of it (my sense anyway).
For the function of fascia ( including tendons and ligaments) and transmission of energy through the fascia watch this video,
http://www.anatomytrains.com/explore...ies/show/id/40

and this interview of Stephen M. Levin, MD FACS ( Fellow of the American College of Surgeons),
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ajowL0T4bM

This research by Helene M. Langevin, is about the use of the connective tissue that covers and interconnects with all the parts of the body as a communications network matrix.

"Connective Tissue: A body-wide signaling system.",
http://www.anatomytrains.com/explore...ies/show/id/52

David

Last edited by dps : 04-09-2010 at 01:43 PM.
 
Old 04-09-2010, 02:04 PM   #96
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,628
United_States
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Again, a bunch of chit chat, but no one says "yeah I'll make a video"

If anyone can do any kind of demonstration that I can't duplicate, then I'll shut up and listen. However I repeatedly hear "I can tell by your movement that you don't have (insert magic word here)" or " you could not possibly do what I do because I can (insert magic jibber-jabber here)". Why not show how you can do these things; well maybe because you can't.

I've been around internal quite a bit. I have studied a great deal under a very well known teacher. I have fought with the dog brothers done mixed martial arts, and competitive jiujitsu. I've been around the block, and I'd love to share. However I am constantly stone walled by those unwilling to demonstrate any actual ability outside of their comfort zone. Sure there is lots of talk about challenges and sparring sessions, but it's just talk as far as I can tell.

Why is making a video so complicated? If you can do anything that I haven't seen before, I would love to talk about it.

Last edited by ChrisHein : 04-09-2010 at 02:15 PM.

 
Old 04-09-2010, 02:27 PM   #97
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Hi Chris:

Well, let me point out something I said in a previous post:

Quote:
Another problem with the videos has to do with what can happen to interpretations of what is seen. I'm not a great exponent of the "jo trick"... and in my opinion Ueshiba never really pulled it off in the filmed attempts I've seen (he *may* have been able to do it better when he was younger and stronger). That being said, I see something entirely different in what he was attempting to do than you do in your explanation that has to do with suggestion, and so on.
My point was that your explanation and copying of the jo trick wasn't very accurate. In other words, a film of an incident (the jo trick) did not result in you duplicating the feat. So let's be open-ended about your replication of any feat you see on film/video... agreed?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I've been around internal quite a bit. I have studied a great deal under a very well know teacher.
I dunno. I know a couple of guys who studied on Taiwan for about 12 years and they "did internal" ... except they really couldn't. Yet they were "around internal quite a bit" and their teacher was a very well-known Taiwanese CMA teacher (Hong Yi Xiang). My point is that being around teachers doesn't necessarily mean a lot.... it's a lot more important that the teacher actually showed something. In the case of the two guys on Taiwan, their very well-known teacher made a commitment to the local martial-arts council that he wasn't showing these things to foreigners. I.e., it just goes to show you never can tell (a la Chuck Berry).

At the moment, there is some discussion on QiJin about the advantages of these skills and how they give an advantage in martial-arts.... but now some people are beginning to see that if they show everyone how to do these things, the advantage can disappear. If nothing else, there are levels of these skills and by showing them beyond a basic level (e.g., on video) someone moderately knowledgeable may learn a trick that they didn't know before. As I've posted in the past, I think the basic level of these skills should be made more available (and I work toward that end); showing demo's just to one-up someone doesn't appeal to me.

That being said, I'm not opposed to anyone I've worked with discussing basics, etc., in an attempt to delineate a viable definition of "aiki". I think it's a worthwhile endeavor.

Best.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-09-2010, 02:30 PM   #98
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 692
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
At the moment, there is some discussion on QiJin about the advantages of these skills and how they give an advantage in martial-arts.... but now some people are beginning to see that if they show everyone how to do these things, the advantage can disappear.
That sounds really interesting, Mike.
 
Old 04-09-2010, 03:13 PM   #99
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,536
United_States
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Well, I can only talk about myself. I've learned a ton in the last few years from various sources and I'm just trying to figure out how to proper incorporate it into what I do. Yeah, snippets have begun to show up a bit in what I do when I teach my own classes, but otherwise, I'm just working on myself right now. As always there is the statement that Kobayashi-sensei was well known to utter on occasion -- do what I tell you to do and *not* what *you* *think* you see me doing. I hear it all the time from our Chief Instructor who studied directly with Kobayashi-sensei for decades now. And in the last few years that has taken on new meaning for me.

Most are content with the appearance. Or are content with what they think is happening because that is comfortable, familiar, and self-reinforcing. Lately I've been rebuilding a lot of what I thought I knew. Every time in my progress when I start to feel comfortable that usually means I'm missing something important. So it becomes important to go out, play, mix it up, and learn somethin' new. Let the karma run over my dogma kinda deal..

Time with Mike helped me along that way recently although it turns out I was in the midst of a major physical problem that I didn't realize was severely impairing my ability to practice. Same is true of times I've seen Toby. Heck, the Aikiweb seminar with Toby, Aaron Clark and George Ledyard expanded my vision and blew up my self-image enough as it was... And now that I'm starting to feel relatively human again it's time to push things even more.

I guess my point is... Get out there, open your mind, and experiment/experience this stuff from a variety of sources. Eventually someone does something that makes you go "oh...". Or maybe not -- maybe you've had it all along.

Anyway, just trying to muddle along avoiding the convenient
complete rejection on one side and the blind hero worship on the other.

 
Old 04-09-2010, 03:15 PM   #100
Josh Lerner
 
Josh Lerner's Avatar
Location: Renton, WA
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 80
United_States
Offline
Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Yeah, could be too. I keep looking at the photo and now that you mention it I'm not sure anymore. After posting my reply and thinking more about it I sent a copy of the image to the Kobayashi family to ask them to to take a look... It sure looks a *lot* like Kobayashi, but... I don't recall him ever being in those books...
Actually, I am pretty sure that is the late Fumio Toyoda, who was my instructor's instructor way back when. His picture was replaced with someone else's in later editions, probably because he left Tohei and started his own organization.

Josh
 

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:59 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate