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Old 04-08-2010, 05:14 PM   #1
JeffCW
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Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Are there any offinsive move in Aikido my friend works in the county jail and a deputy and he wants to learn aikido but some times in his line of work he needs to be offinsive not just deffinsive so would it benifit him or no?
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Old 04-08-2010, 06:38 PM   #2
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

All of Aikido is offensive.

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Old 04-08-2010, 07:25 PM   #3
Janet Rosen
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

I'm offended by that remark :-)

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 04-08-2010, 08:18 PM   #4
Gorgeous George
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

In Yoshinkan aikido, in shomen-uchi ikkajo osae ichi 'you (sh'te) attack with shomen-uchi' to initiate the technique.

Source: Total Aikido: The Master Course by Gozo Shioda
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Old 04-08-2010, 09:29 PM   #5
wideawakedreamer
 
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Usually one first learns the techniques as a response to an attack.

Example: Uke (the attacking partner) attacks with a straight punch to the chest and Nage (the one practicing the technique) responds with a technique.

However, it is possible for nage to attack first, with say, a punch to the face to elicit a reaction. If uke raises his hand to block, nage can then execute a technique on the blocking hand.

It's also possible to attack with a direct iriminage.

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Old 04-08-2010, 11:13 PM   #6
John Matsushima
 
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Quote:
Rafael Ayala wrote: View Post
Usually one first learns the techniques as a response to an attack.

Example: Uke (the attacking partner) attacks with a straight punch to the chest and Nage (the one practicing the technique) responds with a technique.

However, it is possible for nage to attack first, with say, a punch to the face to elicit a reaction. If uke raises his hand to block, nage can then execute a technique on the blocking hand.

It's also possible to attack with a direct iriminage.
So what happens when uke doesn't raise his hand to block, he gets punched in the face? Then what?

-John Matsushima

My blog on Japanese culture
http://onecorneroftheplanetinjapan.blogspot.jp/
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Old 04-08-2010, 11:45 PM   #7
PeterR
 
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Tears spring to eyes.

Loud recriminations about what is and what is not Aikido.

All round gnashing of teeth - assuming some are left.

Seriously - at least within Shodokan Aikido there is a heavy emphasis on the explosive irimi. The first five techniques are atemi waza and there is no requirement that uke has to move first.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 04-09-2010, 12:12 AM   #8
Adam Huss
 
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Quote:
John Matsushima wrote: View Post
So what happens when uke doesn't raise his hand to block, he gets punched in the face? Then what?
Typically you don't want a knock out blow here....you usually lead nice and big so they see its coming...if they don't block, continue to lightly slap them in the grill until they bring a hand up to stop the annoyance....then control that hand. This is kihon waza for Yoshinkan Aikido...as mentioned, all shomenuchi dai ichi (energy to rear of uke) kidon waza. This concept is also applied to Yoshinkan Shihonage pin (uke face up), and some others in oyo waza. The idea of nage/shite attacking first was removed from O'Sensei's Aikibudo around 1942 when aikibudo became aikido.

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 04-09-2010, 01:23 AM   #9
Walter Martindale
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Kawahara shihan (Canada) frequently says "Nage initiates".
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Old 04-09-2010, 03:16 AM   #10
aikishihan
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

If an "offensive move" is described as a preemptive or proactive move to take and maintain control of an unavoidable conflict situation, it may be deemed not only acceptable, but highly recommended.

If it is meant to instigate conflict or to impose one's will arbitrarily on an unwilling subject without cause, then it is not "Aiki", and not appropriate.

Atemi waza may be called the Swiss Army Knife of Aikido, since it has so many uses for so many scenarios. Again, what the intent and circumstance for properly using Atemi should be, must be strictly the responsibility of each person, and may not be prematurely judged by others without full discovery of the facts.

It is to be hoped that we will each have enough time to decide correctly, and to follow through effectively with any decision that we make when acting proactively to protect ourselves and loved ones.
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Old 04-09-2010, 03:23 AM   #11
Amassus
 
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Why not let your friend go to an aikido dojo and try out some classes for himself. He will know if what he is shown is worthwhile or not.

I know at my own club we have had bouncers come through to learn a few techniques and then leave once they are happy they have a few tools for the job.

From what these guys have told me, the stuff works fine in a proactive context.

"flows like water, reflects like a mirror, and responds like an echo." Chaung-tse
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Old 04-09-2010, 05:01 AM   #12
bulevardi
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Try the moves in suwari waza. Seems more offensive on this picture, and certainly more odd to your attackers.


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Old 04-09-2010, 05:27 AM   #13
John Matsushima
 
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
Typically you don't want a knock out blow here....you usually lead nice and big so they see its coming...if they don't block, continue to lightly slap them in the grill until they bring a hand up to stop the annoyance....then control that hand. This is kihon waza for Yoshinkan Aikido...as mentioned, all shomenuchi dai ichi (energy to rear of uke) kidon waza. This concept is also applied to Yoshinkan Shihonage pin (uke face up), and some others in oyo waza. The idea of nage/shite attacking first was removed from O'Sensei's Aikibudo around 1942 when aikibudo became aikido.
Why do you presume that an attacker would bring a hand up to stop the annoyance? There are many other options available in that situation. They may duck down to your waist and go for a takedown, or slap your hand out of the way and just punch you in the face hard, OR blend with your attack and use a technique to take you down, like irimi-nage, etc.

How do you blend with a person who is not attacking? As to my understanding, one blends with an attacker's energy and redirects that energy to a point of kuzushi for the attacker.

I think that Aikido in general doesn't work offensively because the other person will react differently when they feel they are being attacked, and that changes the dynamics of the technique. In my experience, I have tried some of these "offensive" techniques to no avail. Either the person was being too defensive and retreating, or he was experienced with training, and reacted differently which put me in an disadvantageous position.

-John Matsushima

My blog on Japanese culture
http://onecorneroftheplanetinjapan.blogspot.jp/
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Old 04-09-2010, 05:59 AM   #14
sakumeikan
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I'm offended by that remark :-)
Dear Janet,
Why?Its a legitimate question.I see know reason why you should find the remarks offensive.Please explain you position.
All the best .Joe.
Ps I trust this mail finds you well.
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Old 04-09-2010, 10:09 AM   #15
Anjisan
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Ai symbol Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Janet,
Why?Its a legitimate question.I see know reason why you should find the remarks offensive.Please explain you position.
All the best .Joe.
Ps I trust this mail finds you well.
It is just my third party observation that Janet was just making a play on words with the word "offensive".

Anyway, I belive that with regard to Aikido and offensive techniques, I belive that one has redefine as what "offensive" actually is. Specifically, when there is a confrontation with a opponent the first technique that is used is grabbing your opponents mind- even when they are across the room.

The first offensive technique has already been delivered. Your opponent has to want you for there to be conflict in the first place and they have to come to you where you are, on your terms if it is done right, to get you. That want, can be used to your advantage in terms of baiting them ala leaning forward, movement on your part and the resulting angles and openings that result.
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Old 04-09-2010, 10:21 AM   #16
Stormcrow34
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Irimi; direct and to the point.
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Old 04-09-2010, 10:26 AM   #17
phitruong
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

any moves you make toward the other person is offensive. sometimes just looking at the person is offensive. other times just being who you are is offensive to another person. lots of time i myself is pretty offensive to me, especially early in the morning, before a heavy dose of coffee.

to the OP, deputy of county jail = pretty offensive to the criminals there. does your friend want to make the matter worst?
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Old 04-09-2010, 11:22 AM   #18
Aikibu
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

I think a better question would be what "moves" in Aikido are defensive...

Either you help your Uke by leading (aka offensive movement) them or they continue the fight by leading you.

William Hazen
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Old 04-09-2010, 11:31 AM   #19
ramenboy
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

i think any time i'm practicing with someone who doesn't wash their dogi... that's an offensive move.

practice hard
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Old 04-09-2010, 12:05 PM   #20
Janet Rosen
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Janet,
Why?Its a legitimate question.I see know reason why you should find the remarks offensive.Please explain you position.
All the best .Joe.
Ps I trust this mail finds you well.
I refer you purely and simply to the smiley that followed my sentence.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 04-09-2010, 12:07 PM   #21
Ketsan
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

If uke attacks enter in and throw. If uke doesn't attack, enter in and throw. If uke runs away make large entry and throw.
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Old 04-09-2010, 01:48 PM   #22
DonMagee
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Quote:
Jeffery Whitney wrote: View Post
Are there any offinsive move in Aikido my friend works in the county jail and a deputy and he wants to learn aikido but some times in his line of work he needs to be offinsive not just deffinsive so would it benifit him or no?
If the person doesn't attack him, he shouldn't need to defend himself. As far as I know guards don't just beat up on prisoners not trying to harm them.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-09-2010, 03:22 PM   #23
David Board
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
If the person doesn't attack him, he shouldn't need to defend himself. As far as I know guards don't just beat up on prisoners not trying to harm them.
He may, however, need to defend another or intervene in an attack.

This would require some modification of technique but not unimaginable modification. Beyond my skill but I'm just a beginner.
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Old 04-09-2010, 03:52 PM   #24
Adam Huss
 
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Quote:
John Matsushima wrote: View Post
How do you blend with a person who is not attacking? As to my understanding, one blends with an attacker's energy and redirects that energy to a point of kuzushi for the attacker.
Because you are forcing uke into movement, regardless of what it is. Since nage is initiating, and forcing uke to react, nage creates a gap for control. The point is to create movement where there isn't any. If uke rears back...as is intended in Yoshinkan Shomenuchi ichi...nage continues that momentum to uke's rear. This is a technical concept called irimi...better still it is the idea of sen or sensen no sen. We practice go no sen as well, of course. Shioda Sensei and Ueshiba Sensei could be wrong in these concepts, but I tend to adhere to their teachings.
cheers,
A

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 04-10-2010, 01:22 AM   #25
sakumeikan
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Re: Any offensive moves in Aikido?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I refer you purely and simply to the smiley that followed my sentence.
Dear Janet,
Missed the smiley!! Did not fully use my extension of Ki to fully in order to appreciate your Zen like statement.In fact I guess I was half asleep when I read Aikiweb.Have a nice day,
A.T.B. Joe .
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