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Old 04-05-2010, 06:27 PM   #1
ChrisHein
 
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Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

So a few of us got to talking about what we call "Aiki" on another thread: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17873

And it came up that maybe we should post videos showing how we define "Aiki". So I agreed to make a video of my definition of "Aiki" :

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=736

I also made some videos of what I think some people call "Aiki" (which may very well be Aiki) but I call by different names.

Alignment and Structure:

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=739

Mental Suggestion via a jo trick:

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=742

Hopefully this will give a place for those who are trying to push their ideas about "Aiki" to post some videos, to help clear up what it is that they are talking about.

 
Old 04-05-2010, 07:15 PM   #2
Mike Sigman
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
So a few of us got to talking about what we call "Aiki" on another thread: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17873

And it came up that maybe we should post videos showing how we define "Aiki". So I agreed to make a video of my definition of "Aiki" :

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=736

I also made some videos of what I think some people call "Aiki" (which may very well be Aiki) but I call by different names.

Alignment and Structure:

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=739

Mental Suggestion via a jo trick:

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=742

Hopefully this will give a place for those who are trying to push their ideas about "Aiki" to post some videos, to help clear up what it is that they are talking about.
Hi Chris:

Well, thanks for taking the time to make the videos; I hope the discussion becomes fruitful.

Your first video has a lot to do with timing and I think timing is critical in most encounters, whether they are "aiki" or not. So while I agree that there is "timing" in aiki, I don't think it is particularly defining of Aiki.

Besides, we have something like this from Ueshiba: " I asked someone at my side who this person was. It was explained to me that he was the famous Tenryu who had withdrawn from the Sumo Wrestler's Association. I was then introduced to him. Finally, we ended up pitting our strength against each other. I sat down and said to Tenryu, "Please try to push me over. Push hard, there's no need to hold back." Since I knew the secret of Aikido, I could not be moved an inch. "

Obviously just standing still to Tenryu's push is does not really have a lot to do with "timing", so accepting that there is timing in most good techniques of any martial style, it looks like your ideas about "structure" are perhaps closer to the point the Ueshiba was talking about.

However, while I think you're going in the right direction, I don't think you've gone far enough. Your comments on structure and spine, etc., are a start, but they don't encompass a next-step like this one:

http://www.neijia.com/OneLegPushOriginal.jpg

In the above picture the comments about spine, etc., begin to go by the wayside because there's more going on than just 'structure'. Further down the road, it gets even more complicated because 'structure' (as you're speaking of it) only plays a minor role and the mental menipulation of force vectors becomes the dominant factor (the Divine Will, as O-Sensei put it) and mental manipulation of those forces so that they combine with forces from an opponent become more of a focus. Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying that some of the things you mention never come into play, I'm just saying that at a more sophisticated level things are, well, more sophisticated.

Best.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-05-2010, 09:47 PM   #3
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Sweet Mike. Let's see some video's of the more sophisticated stuff! Stories and pictures are great, but as you brought up in the last thread, videos of people doing these things would really help.

 
Old 04-06-2010, 07:22 AM   #4
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Let's let some Aikido people do most of the talking, Chris. I might join in later, but I don't want this to become another 'outsider' discussion. I know of a number of Aikido people who can demonstrate what I was talking about and I think it's better if stay out of the way for the moment.

Best.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-06-2010, 09:25 AM   #5
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Hi Chris (if I may)

thanks for posting the vids.
In the second video (Alignment and structure) what would happen if, in the first example, your uke suddenly removed the pushing force? Would you react the same way your uke did when you turned? I would guess not, but I think if that's true, it would be a point worth emphasizing. Hard to tell from video.

All the best,
Patrick
 
Old 04-06-2010, 09:57 AM   #6
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Hello Patrick,
(and you can call me Chris, thanks for asking)
If I would have thought about it I would have asked him to suddenly let go. We do that in our alignment training sometimes to make sure the pushie isn't just pushing.

If he would have suddenly let go I would have stayed put. I'm not pushing into him, he is pushing against me. Like pushing against a tree, if you suddenly let go, the tree doesn't topple over.

Mike, I know what you mean. I wish some Aikido/Aiki-related people would post as well.

 
Old 04-06-2010, 12:07 PM   #7
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
So a few of us got to talking about what we call "Aiki" on another thread: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17873

And it came up that maybe we should post videos showing how we define "Aiki". So I agreed to make a video of my definition of "Aiki" :

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=736

I also made some videos of what I think some people call "Aiki" (which may very well be Aiki) but I call by different names.

Alignment and Structure:

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=739

Mental Suggestion via a jo trick:

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=742

Hopefully this will give a place for those who are trying to push their ideas about "Aiki" to post some videos, to help clear up what it is that they are talking about.
I agree with Mike about your first video. That's just timing and over-commitment by your uke. The notion of that being aiki falls apart when you have someone attack who can deliver power without committing themselves to "sitting in your chair". I don't think any of the people who are widely recognized as having aiki (Ueshiba, Takeda, Sagawa, etc). ever needed anyone to commit to giving them anything in order for them to feel their Aiki.

Your second video is getting somewhere, IMO. What you're doing there is not difficult for anyone to replicate. The questions are:

1. how much muscle are you using to maintain that structure?

2. how long can you maintain that against a hard push before even more muscles jump in to assist and likewise begin to fail?

3. Can you do that with a push from any direction?

4. Can you manifest that structure in an instant, from any direction?

5. Can you move while maintaining that structure against active resistance?

all while being relaxed, without relying on muscle to do things for you.

while there are a lot more things at work in Aiki than just skeletal structure, I think that if you take your example and add the five things above, you get closer to what aiki is and from that you can form a solid understanding of what it can do. I'm sure other people could add more things to it as well.

I didn't comment on your third video as I don't see it having any relevance to the discussion.
 
Old 04-06-2010, 01:11 PM   #8
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Thanks for the vids, Chris. No promises, but I'll see if I can film something myself.

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
I agree with Mike about your first video. That's just timing and over-commitment by your uke.
Yeah, not what I'd define as aiki at all. As I noted in the other thread, my definition and implementation of aiki is completely different than yours, Chris.

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Your second video is getting somewhere, IMO. What you're doing there is not difficult for anyone to replicate. The questions are:
I'd agree here, too. Although I thought Chris looked pretty good while being pushed on the outstretched arm. I didn't have the same question as Patrick because I thought you looked fairly structured and you didn't look like you were pushing back. But, as Patrick noted, it's hard to tell with video. I thought Jason's follow up questions were pretty good. I'd call these things structure, but for the rest of your examples in this vid, I wouldn't. They were more "tricks" as you called them.

Here's my followup questions for the second vid.

On the push test where you are sitting, it looks like the vector that Mike is pushing is fairly straight down your spine. Can you have Mike push in a more 90 degree vector to your head (i.e. more horizontal force) and still remain unmoved? Also, can you straighten your back so that your spine is 90 degrees to the mat and do this?

When you have Mike push on your shoulders, you use your hands under his arms to create a physical leverage. And yes, I'd call it a trick, too. So, can you remove your arms completely, let Mike push, and not be pushed over?

As Sigman noted with the graphic, in Tohei's one foot push test, he doesn't use the "trick" of placing a hand under uke's arm. Can you stand on one foot, have Mike push you without resorting to placing your arm under his, and not be pushed over?

If you can do these things, then that's what I'd call having a structured body. Still not aiki, but it's a start.

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
while there are a lot more things at work in Aiki than just skeletal structure, I think that if you take your example and add the five things above, you get closer to what aiki is and from that you can form a solid understanding of what it can do. I'm sure other people could add more things to it as well.

I didn't comment on your third video as I don't see it having any relevance to the discussion.
agree.
 
Old 04-06-2010, 06:14 PM   #9
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Hmm, This is the kind of stuff I thought you guys were talking about. I personally think it's less interesting then what I described in the first video. But to each his own.

As for the first video, it is a gross example of what I would call "Aiki". It does require commitment on the part of the attacker, but not over commitment. It is by far the most powerful single tool I've personally seen in the martial arts. Its implications are much farther reaching then anyone yet seems to have touched on. Mastering the ability to use this one concept eliminates the need for all other technique.

Jason,

1. I'm using as much muscle is required to align my body.
2. I can maintain that posture until the pusher falls onto the ground in a heap of sweat. Staying relaxed myself. It is effortless.
3. I can do that from most directions, but I must align myself. There is no magic holding me up, only the alignment of my bones.
4. I can manifest structure as quickly as need be, it's not a matter of speed.
5. Depends on who I'm dealing with. People who are as good as me are harder to deal with then people who are not as good as me.

All of the things I showed "require muscle" without muscle the human body cannot move. However I can align so that holding the position becomes effortless. That doesn't mean no muscle, it just means that it is very easy for me to do.

Mark,
While sitting I must align my structure to the push. Ueshiba did as well, if you watch his videos, it looks much the same.

I cannot stand on one foot without joining structures with the pusher. Nor can I stay at 90 degrees. No one can, without using what I showed in video 3 (mental suggestion).

If anyone can do this, please post videos! I've heard of these things, but when it comes to showing them, strange enough no one can.

If you can't understand the importance of video 3 (mental suggestion) then you are probably very susceptible to it.

Lets see some videos!!

 
Old 04-06-2010, 06:28 PM   #10
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
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I cannot stand on one foot without joining structures with the pusher. Nor can I stay at 90 degrees. No one can, without using what I showed in video 3 (mental suggestion).

If anyone can do this, please post videos! I've heard of these things, but when it comes to showing them, strange enough no one can.
Hmmmmm.... well, I tend to show how to do this at most first workshops, Chris. I don't use that example, since it's just a beginning workshop, but what I tend to do is have a partner push on the person's chest with one hand and the "nage" stands first with one foot forward and then shifts into two feet parallel. I.e., it's a reasonable approximation for a first-time attempt; the principles are the same. Maybe someone can make a video of it and show it.

I've explained this type of demonstration a couple of times on this very web-forum, IIRC. And realistically, once someone understands how to do these things, "aiki" isn't too far away. Well, understanding isn't too far away; expertise comes with practice, as in most things.

All I'm saying is that "no one can" may be a bit of exaggeration. It's all in knowing how. One of the things I've suggested numerous times is that people estimate the size and direction of the incoming force (in that Tohei-related photograph) and back figure the necessary force vector that is required to put the two people into stasis... and the how-to becomes obvious.

Best.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-06-2010, 06:45 PM   #11
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Sweet Mike, lets see some video.

 
Old 04-06-2010, 08:04 PM   #12
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

In the Push Test 02 video, we are working on structure. And no, I can't withstand a full force push to the chest yet. We start slow and work from there. The push coming in to my chest is almost a 90 degree push and I'm in a natural stance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr17-NgGdSs

In the Push Test 03 video, we're working on structure and non dedicated weight. It's a good test to see if your structure is working properly. You should always have mobility, even when under some force or load.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd6lSElsS8s
 
Old 04-06-2010, 08:27 PM   #13
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
In the Push Test 02 video, we are working on structure. And no, I can't withstand a full force push to the chest yet. We start slow and work from there. The push coming in to my chest is almost a 90 degree push and I'm in a natural stance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr17-NgGdSs

In the Push Test 03 video, we're working on structure and non dedicated weight. It's a good test to see if your structure is working properly. You should always have mobility, even when under some force or load.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd6lSElsS8s
Hi Mark:

In the first video I can't really judge how well you're doing (assuming a reasonable and legitimate push from your uke) because I can't see your feet. It appears that you have a slight lean, though. However, all of that being said, words like "relax the chest", "six directions", and so on, don't really tell anyone how or why you can resist a push to the chest.

Suppose that you were on rollerskates... could you resist the push? I don't think so, so (assuming I'm correct), there's a lot more to the story than just "relax the chest", etc. What do you think the rest of the story is?

In the second video, which is truncated, you appear (to my eyes) to be duplicating what Chris Hein showed, at first. When you turn to the chest push, my feeling is that the push from uke changes, although of course I could be wrong. But the same question arises. How does it work? There is an incoming force of a certain force magnitude and direction and if you don't move then the force magnitude and direction must be met by a counter-acting force and direction, right? If you don't agree, please tell me. If you do agree, then the question becomes one of "how do you generate the counteracting force?".

Again, as I said a few years ago, all you need to do is figure out what it takes to counteract the incoming force and meet it with an equal and opposite force (Newton's third law) in order to put the system into equilibrium. How do you generate these stasis forces? With intent. How do you do it the next step up, in dynamic rather than static situations? With intent and practice and using the hara to manipulate the forces within a trained/conditioned body.

Static forces are easy. I.e., "aiki" is more complex than simple demonstrations in reasonably static situations.... *and* there are levels of ways to manipulate the dynamic forces.

Best.

Mike

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 04-06-2010 at 08:30 PM.
 
Old 04-06-2010, 09:10 PM   #14
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Hey Mark,
Thanks for the videos, now we are starting something.

In the first video, if that is what you mean by staying 90 degrees in that situation, I stand corrected. You can receive some force in this manner. When you asked the first time, I thought you meant a full force push (as I showed in my second video). To a degree, everyone can resist some force this way, but the amount is minor.

This brings me to my next point about what you call "Aiki" (if these are examples of what you call "Aiki"). There is a major limit to what it can do with it. Even if this limit seems better then normal, it is still very limited. For example, with my push (second video) I can do that with a normal person, I've even done it with two people pushing as hard as they can, but there is a limit. For example if a Bull were trying to push me like that, he would just run me over, his structure is stronger then mine.

However looking at "Aiki" the way I do has no limit. You can use what I call "Aiki" on a bull easily, in fact people do it in Spain all the time.

My point here is, how much force must one be able to receive to be considered to have good "Aiki"? What is the point of being able to receive all this force? Isn't lifting weights something that could compare to this, in terms of force taking ability? Besides being an interesting novelty with some application, what good is this kind of practice, why develop a whole martial art system around it?

 
Old 04-06-2010, 09:20 PM   #15
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
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In the first video, if that is what you mean by staying 90 degrees in that situation, I stand corrected. You can receive some force in this manner. When you asked the first time, I thought you meant a full force push (as I showed in my second video). To a degree, everyone can resist some force this way, but the amount is minor.
Hi Chris:

Wouldn't that also depend upon, say, what Mark knows versus what you know, debatably? If someone knows how to manipulate forces, he can train to withstand a lot more force than you'd think, in a static situation, although no one can withstand the onslaught of a runaway 1955 Chevrolate pickup truck, I agree.

The point is that if you know how to do this trick, *and* you can do it in static and dynamic situations at will, you can manipulate an incoming force and not only negate that force by 'grounding' it but also can train to manipulate the attacking force so that the attacker's force works against him and helps to throw him. If you understand what I just said, then you can begin to understand what Inaba Sensei, Ueshiba, Tohei, Shioda, and others were talking about when they were discussing the importance of "aiki".

Best.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-06-2010, 10:04 PM   #16
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
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you can manipulate an incoming force and not only negate that force by 'grounding' it but also can train to manipulate the attacking force so that the attacker's force works against him and helps to throw him. If you understand what I just said, then you can begin to understand what Inaba Sensei, Ueshiba, Tohei, Shioda, and others were talking about when they were discussing the importance of "aiki".
You can also do this with what I would call "Aiki". But you can do it without making contact, and with a 55' Chevy.

Last edited by ChrisHein : 04-06-2010 at 10:07 PM.

 
Old 04-07-2010, 01:40 AM   #17
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Besides being an interesting novelty with some application, what good is this kind of practice, why develop a whole martial art system around it?
So you can do cool stuff like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5N...eature=related
 
Old 04-07-2010, 05:03 AM   #18
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Hi Mark:

In the first video I can't really judge how well you're doing (assuming a reasonable and legitimate push from your uke) because I can't see your feet. It appears that you have a slight lean, though. However, all of that being said, words like "relax the chest", "six directions", and so on, don't really tell anyone how or why you can resist a push to the chest.

Suppose that you were on rollerskates... could you resist the push? I don't think so, so (assuming I'm correct), there's a lot more to the story than just "relax the chest", etc. What do you think the rest of the story is?
Hi Mike,
I think the rest of the story is ... practice. This vid was done about a year ago and yeah, I leaned. The force coming in was decent but not what I'd consider strong. Hard to tell with video.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
In the second video, which is truncated, you appear (to my eyes) to be duplicating what Chris Hein showed, at first. When you turn to the chest push, my feeling is that the push from uke changes, although of course I could be wrong. But the same question arises. How does it work? There is an incoming force of a certain force magnitude and direction and if you don't move then the force magnitude and direction must be met by a counter-acting force and direction, right? If you don't agree, please tell me. If you do agree, then the question becomes one of "how do you generate the counteracting force?".

Again, as I said a few years ago, all you need to do is figure out what it takes to counteract the incoming force and meet it with an equal and opposite force (Newton's third law) in order to put the system into equilibrium. How do you generate these stasis forces? With intent. How do you do it the next step up, in dynamic rather than static situations? With intent and practice and using the hara to manipulate the forces within a trained/conditioned body.

Static forces are easy. I.e., "aiki" is more complex than simple demonstrations in reasonably static situations.... *and* there are levels of ways to manipulate the dynamic forces.

Best.

Mike
I generally don't think about counteracting forces. Yes, they have to be there, but I have a hard enough time keeping intent and structure going let alone trying to figure out how physics is working in my body. That's a headache for sure.

But, I definitely agree on your last paragraph.
 
Old 04-07-2010, 05:38 AM   #19
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
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Hey Mark,
Thanks for the videos, now we are starting something.

In the first video, if that is what you mean by staying 90 degrees in that situation, I stand corrected. You can receive some force in this manner. When you asked the first time, I thought you meant a full force push (as I showed in my second video). To a degree, everyone can resist some force this way, but the amount is minor.
So, now that we have an agreement that it can be done, we can turn to talking about the level that it can be done.

So, if I can start to do this, then think about what someone who has been training for 10 years can do. For 20. The possibility is that someone *can* withstand a full force push to the chest at a 90 degree angle.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
This brings me to my next point about what you call "Aiki" (if these are examples of what you call "Aiki").
Oh, sorry, should have clarified more. These are examples of structure, not really aiki. But, I wanted to get a base established because without good structure, there can be no aiki.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
There is a major limit to what it can do with it. Even if this limit seems better then normal, it is still very limited. For example, with my push (second video) I can do that with a normal person, I've even done it with two people pushing as hard as they can, but there is a limit. For example if a Bull were trying to push me like that, he would just run me over, his structure is stronger then mine.
There are limits to most everything. But, I keep expanding my limits with training in aiki and I see other people doing the same. I also see what can be done when someone has 10-20 years of this kind of training. And their limitations are far less than mine and it isn't what I'd call "very limited". Keep in mind that I'm just a beginner at this stuff.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
However looking at "Aiki" the way I do has no limit. You can use what I call "Aiki" on a bull easily, in fact people do it in Spain all the time.
But that isn't the aiki that Ueshiba had. That's the "aiki" that was invented by modern students. Well, perhaps not "invented". Jujutsu always had principles of timing, body placement, etc.

Quote:
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My point here is, how much force must one be able to receive to be considered to have good "Aiki"? What is the point of being able to receive all this force?
Take the video where I'm practicing a push to the chest. When I can push on someone like that with full force and not be able to move them, then I consider that very good structure. Especially, since the person isn't cemented to the ground but very, very mobile with non-dedicated weight.

What is the point? Well, if you can withstand a full force push to the chest and then have that ability in a dynamic manner, why would anyone's unarmed attack have much affect on you? In armed, when a sword contacts your sword, how will the attacker move your sword? Remember, the attacker can't physically move you, how do they accomplish that from the tip of a sword?

Then add in aiki. Which we haven't even started talking about.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Isn't lifting weights something that could compare to this, in terms of force taking ability? Besides being an interesting novelty with some application, what good is this kind of practice, why develop a whole martial art system around it?
Actually, if you do think about the *process* of lifting weights, I guess it's comparable. When lifting weights, one trains to lift heavier and heavier weights. In structure, one trains to receive more and more force/energy.

Well, so far, we've gotten to talking about structure and its uses. And you've had good questions about what it can be used for. If there are questions about the martial validity of basic structure, then we should make sure we go over them. Structure is part of aiki, IMO, but not nearly the whole thing.

Er, how about a really bad example? Let's say aiki is a custom built, very powerful, high horsepower engine. Let's say you want to use that engine in a car. So, you have a car frame made of plastic. Would it do any good to put that engine on that frame? How about a normal steel frame from a basic car? Now, what if you take that normal frame and add more structural stability to it so that it can handle the torque and stress of that engine? You rebuild the structural integrity of that frame to handle more power and stress?

So, basically if your world consists of plastic frames, you're in a silly world. Seriously, though, if you're in a world of normal frames, then you twist and collapse under torque, pressure, and stress. And it'd be hard to grasp the concept that you could withstand much greater amounts, especially when most of the rest of the world is normal frame vehicles.

But, if you rebuild your structure for that kind of environment, then you can withstand and generate a lot more. You have a few McClaren F-1s among hundreds of millions of normal cars. It's only when a normal car actually experiences the interaction with a McClaren that the normal car realizes there is more to the functionality of a car.

Or the short answer is Jonathan Livingston Seagull.
 
Old 04-07-2010, 05:55 AM   #20
MM
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Forewarning: This vid looks fake and somewhat silly. When you get into the realm of aiki, things look fake and silly on video. This vid shows a good reason why videos on aiki aren't really useful. It's all internal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck7s_lPTM7s

So, the explanation as I put on Youtube.

In this video, I'm using intent to internally turn my spine. From my internal intent and connection to uke through the wrist grab, uke feels the effects and is displaced either left or right, depending on if I'm turning clockwise or counterclockwise. I try not to move physically as this is an intent driven exercise.

Once you start building structure, it starts to remove slack in the body. Slack you never knew you had. It integrates the body into a whole. For example, shoulder joints are notorious for being disconnected. Structure training corrects this (or should if you do it right and quit trying to use your chest muscles to drive movement -- sorry, personal experience). Current theory is that this training involves fascia. I'm no physio PhD, so I'll leave all the theories to other people. The Chinese call some of this training tendon changing or marrow changing or both. Dunno. It's just training to make the body work differently and to be able to receive and generate more force/energy.

Now, once you start building this structure, you start using "intent". I like the Ki Society unbendable arm example here. You're told to imagine your arm is a firehose and water is flowing out the hose. You are using intent, or imagination, to get your body to do something specific. If you tense your biceps while doing this exercise, things fail.

NOTE: You can view this Ki Society example of intent as being the very tip of one snowflake sitting on top of the very tip of a large iceberg. That's how deep and huge aiki is, IMO.

In this video, I'm using another intent exercise. This time, I have a semi decent push coming in from uke. Not full force but not light. Enough to get me to have correct structure but not to cause me to fail and be pushed over. (Video doesn't show levels of force or how that force is generated.) I'm then using intent to turn my spine either clockwise or counterclockwise while physically remaining in place. I'm not thinking about uke or trying to get uke to move. It's all internally driven around me.

Intent isn't aiki. It's like structure, another component of aiki.
 
Old 04-07-2010, 07:08 AM   #21
Mike Sigman
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
You can also do this with what I would call "Aiki". But you can do it without making contact, and with a 55' Chevy.
Well, I agree that you're calling something "aiki" that I wouldn't call "aiki". Actually, I would just say jin manipulation for what I do; sometimes it's jin manipulation that does a vector-add with an incoming force and then I might call it "ai ki" (harmonizing with an incoming force). My experience with a number of Asians over a lot of years is that I'm using a pretty standard view of how these forces work, in terms of internal strength. Your view is that dynamic technique and attendant timing is what "aiki" is, yet I offered you the scenario of Ueshiba engaging with Tenryu in a situation where timing had nothing to do with it. So, we disagree.

Best.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-07-2010, 07:11 AM   #22
Mike Sigman
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
In this video, I'm using intent to internally turn my spine. From my internal intent and connection to uke through the wrist grab, uke feels the effects and is displaced either left or right, depending on if I'm turning clockwise or counterclockwise. I try not to move physically as this is an intent driven exercise.
Hi Mark:

Why "turn the spine"? Back in the old days and in all the old lore, everyone just turned their dantien/hara. Has that gone out of fashion, then?

Best.

Mike
 
Old 04-07-2010, 07:30 AM   #23
MM
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Hi Mark:

Why "turn the spine"? Back in the old days and in all the old lore, everyone just turned their dantien/hara. Has that gone out of fashion, then?

Best.

Mike
Just an exercise. Everything I do is an exercise. So much to rewire/remold/rebuild, so little time.
 
Old 04-07-2010, 07:37 AM   #24
Mike Sigman
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Think about this one, Mark:

"External martial arts use strengthen the bones, the muscles, the tendons; internal martial arts use the qi".

You don't move the qi with the spine.

FWIW

Mike
 
Old 04-07-2010, 07:43 AM   #25
gregstec
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Er, how about a really bad example? Let's say aiki is a custom built, very powerful, high horsepower engine. Let's say you want to use that engine in a car. So, you have a car frame made of plastic. Would it do any good to put that engine on that frame? How about a normal steel frame from a basic car? Now, what if you take that normal frame and add more structural stability to it so that it can handle the torque and stress of that engine? You rebuild the structural integrity of that frame to handle more power and stress?

So, basically if your world consists of plastic frames, you're in a silly world. Seriously, though, if you're in a world of normal frames, then you twist and collapse under torque, pressure, and stress. And it'd be hard to grasp the concept that you could withstand much greater amounts, especially when most of the rest of the world is normal frame vehicles.

But, if you rebuild your structure for that kind of environment, then you can withstand and generate a lot more. You have a few McClaren F-1s among hundreds of millions of normal cars. It's only when a normal car actually experiences the interaction with a McClaren that the normal car realizes there is more to the functionality of a car.

Or the short answer is Jonathan Livingston Seagull.
Oh, I don't think it is such a bad analogy. I think it shows a good relationship between the physical structure and the internal energy that can be generated and controlled by the aiki 'engine'

Greg
 

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